Wright writes.....

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Tony,

 

I've decided that I'll build no more exhibition layouts, nor be part of a team which does so. 

 

As noted on here (hundreds of pages ago!) I did consider the idea of building Kiveton Park for exhibitions. An even dafter idea was that I would do it all myself, but it just isn't practicable now, even with help. 

 

I have to be realistic. Now, in my 75th year (though still without any 'underlying health issues' - I passed my annual MOT recently without need of any treatment nor drugs), how long would it take to build a layout 28' x 10'? Even in retirement, two years? Three years? Four years. More? Probably the last-mentioned. Taking out a new layout on the road at 80? I think not.

 

Anyway, even if I were a decade younger, in the current circumstances how would I be able to start it? Buying wood is hardly 'essential shopping'. No, just not on. 

 

That also assumes shows will return. I'm sure they will, but, in my view, in a different format. Smaller perhaps, and less-numerous? More specialised? 

 

I'm also convinced that many exhibition layouts (most of which have not been exhibited for at least a year now) will never be seen again at shows; largely because their builders will be just too old, or the core of builders will be. 

 

All the above said, I still feel personally optimistic. I have the chance to be part of the 'greatest model railway ever made', in Retford. Sandra has requested my help in future, which makes a dream come true. Yes, I know Covid prevents my (or anyone) doing things at base, though I can still build EM frames for more locos. Little Bytham is complete and awaits the time when visitors can see it in person again. 

 

Reasons to look forwards? I think so.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I don't know how you measure greatness on a model railway so I wouldn't know which layout is "the greatest ever".

 

I always think that any such labels, unless you have a way of measuring what greatness means, are arbitrary and based on personal preferences.

 

My personal "greatest ever layout" is in a shed in my garden but I have no expectation of you or anybody else agreeing with me!

 

 

[micknich2003]

TBG ref to the greatest ever, my personal choice is Frank Dyer's Borchester Town, to me an inspiration. Years later I moved on, and for six years I had a wonderful train set, and full size. It's all in the mind, and each to his own, it's an hobby, and we all see things different.

[t-b-g]

12 minutes ago, micknich2003 said:

TBG ref to the greatest ever, my personal choice is Frank Dyer's Borchester Town, to me an inspiration. Years later I moved on, and for six years I had a wonderful train set, and full size. It's all in the mind, and each to his own, it's an hobby, and we all see things different.

 

Cheers Mick.

 

That would be a very close second for me. I never saw the layout but my dad did at the London show in the 1960s. He said you couldn't get near it for the crowd, with people just not wanting to leave as it was so wonderful to watch it running just like the real railway.

 

Buckingham and Borchester both inspired me in a way that no other layouts ever have but Buckingham gets the edge for me due to it being GCR and pregrouping. They are the only two layouts I would have taken on built by other people but sadly only one survives.

[Clive Mortimore]

59 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Sorry Tony,

 

I've also decide not to proceed with my own exhibition layout, as a result you won't be able to be a part of ' the greatest model railway ever made'. You will have to put up with sixth best, behind thingy, whatsit, do da bridge, summat hill and that Piggy thing.

Ok Andrew, that Piggy thing was researched. At its very first show an ex Stratford driver said that it is operated like a real depot. That was far more important than it looking pretty. 

 

I think everyone who contributes and views this thread would agree that operating a layout correctly is a high priority when planning a layout.

[Headstock]

36 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Ok Andrew, that Piggy thing was researched. At its very first show an ex Stratford driver said that it is operated like a real depot. That was far more important than it looking pretty. 

 

I think everyone who contributes and views this thread would agree that operating a layout correctly is a high priority when planning a layout.

 

Number five on my list Clive. You know, the one with the floating pig and the crane. What's it called, Pig train, Pig brain? I know, Pig crane.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Headstock
add full stop

[SD85]

11 hours ago, Clearwater said:

I've often thought an effective exhibition layout might be a large engine shed just outside a main station.  Having running lines for parade style trains to go past and shuttling of an impressive motive power collection to and from the shed.  Obviously a loco could depart the shed and then be seen a short while later hauling a train past and vice versa with the train loco coming onto shed having been seen hauling an inbound service.

 

David

 

Wasn't that what the Mendip MRG's Aberhafren was? Railway of the Month in August 1997 RM. The shed was built earlier though as a standalone layout (basically a renamed Aberystwyth shed) and that featured in MORILL in about 1994.

 

Fisherton Sarum is another one, there's also one called Kensal Rise IIRC. I am starting an MPD layout but worry about how to make it interesting from an operational and viewing perspective (the intention is to exhibit it eventually). The running lines idea is a good one but that requires much more space and stock.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I don't know how you measure greatness on a model railway so I wouldn't know which layout is "the greatest ever".

 

I always think that any such labels, unless you have a way of measuring what greatness means, are arbitrary and based on personal preferences.

 

My personal "greatest ever layout" is in a shed in my garden but I have no expectation of you or anybody else agreeing with me!

 

 

You're all wrong. The World's Greatest Model Railway was built by Bertram Otto. It says so on the front of this book so it must be true.

 

https://www.transportstore.com/Montagu-Motor-Museum-The-Worlds-Greatest-Model-Railway-Created-By-Bertram-Otto-Book-23573-1895.cfm

 

I saw a version at Olympia more than 50 years ago.

[Headstock]

50 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

You're all wrong. The World's Greatest Model Railway was built by Bertram Otto. It says so on the front of this book so it must be true.

 

https://www.transportstore.com/Montagu-Motor-Museum-The-Worlds-Greatest-Model-Railway-Created-By-Bertram-Otto-Book-23573-1895.cfm

 

I saw a version at Olympia more than 50 years ago.

 

It can't be that great, its only got 36 pages.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Headstock

[Chamby]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

You're all wrong. The World's Greatest Model Railway was built by Bertram Otto. It says so on the front of this book so it must be true.

 

https://www.transportstore.com/Montagu-Motor-Museum-The-Worlds-Greatest-Model-Railway-Created-By-Bertram-Otto-Book-23573-1895.cfm

 

I saw a version at Olympia more than 50 years ago.

 

You read it wrong, St Enodoc....  

 

It’s not The world’s greatest model railway, built by Bertram Otto.  

 

It’s The world’s greatest model railway built by Bertram Otto.

 

The missing comma makes all the difference!

 

 

I don’t profess to know which model railway is the worlds greatest.   I haven’t seen them all!

Edited January 13, 2021 by Chamby

[t-b-g]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

You're all wrong. The World's Greatest Model Railway was built by Bertram Otto. It says so on the front of this book so it must be true.

 

https://www.transportstore.com/Montagu-Motor-Museum-The-Worlds-Greatest-Model-Railway-Created-By-Bertram-Otto-Book-23573-1895.cfm

 

I saw a version at Olympia more than 50 years ago.

 

I was pondering over this. Perhaps we are not all wrong. Perhaps we are all correct. If we all have our own favourite "greatest" and nobody can prove that we are wrong, perhaps there are lots of "greatests". None of us is, hopefully, arrogant enough to suggest that our own personal "greatest" is more valid somehow than that of others.

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I don't know how you measure greatness on a model railway so I wouldn't know which layout is "the greatest ever".

 

I always think that any such labels, unless you have a way of measuring what greatness means, are arbitrary and based on personal preferences.

 

My personal "greatest ever layout" is in a shed in my garden but I have no expectation of you or anybody else agreeing with me!

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

'I always think that any such labels, unless you have a way of measuring what greatness means, are arbitrary and based on personal preferences.'

 

I totally agree; that's why I put the description in inverted commas.

 

My reasons for putting Retford up there are well-known, but might be worth repeating?

 

1. It's a model of an actual prototype (unless any layout, however well made, satisfies that requirement, it'll never be on my list).  

 

2. Not only (1) but it's a model of a Class 1, trunk main line prototype. In other words, it's huge, and a good big-un always beats a good little-un in my book.

 

3. It's as near dead-scale as makes no distance (the only 'compromises' I can detect are where the main lines goes on-/off-stage at the south end, and both ends of the GC).

 

4.  It's full of actual 'modelling'. It's not reliant on RTR or the power of the chequebook. 

 

5. The pedigree behind it is impeccable.

 

6. It works; stuttering, derailments and poor running were not (and are still not) tolerated. 

 

7. It's heroic in every department, even though, I concede, it's not finished. It needed the vision of one of the greatest modellers in history to actually get the creation started. 

 

8. And, the most personal reason; I was an inhabitant of 'the wall' during the period the layout depicts. 

 

Enough reasons?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

I was pondering over this. Perhaps we are not all wrong. Perhaps we are all correct. If we all have our own favourite "greatest" and nobody can prove that we are wrong, perhaps there are lots of "greatests". None of us is, hopefully, arrogant enough to suggest that our own personal "greatest" is more valid somehow than that of others.

I couldn't possibly pick a "G.O.A.T", but I could manage a selection after the fashion of Desert Island Discs. 

 

Mind you, I also have a few (mainly historical) favourites which wouldn't get into any "Best Of" compilation by today's standards, but which greatly influenced the development of the hobby. Mac Pyrke's "Berrow" and David Jenkinson's "Marthwaite" spring immediately to mind.

 

John

[t-b-g]

30 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Tony,

 

'I always think that any such labels, unless you have a way of measuring what greatness means, are arbitrary and based on personal preferences.'

 

I totally agree; that's why I put the description in inverted commas.

 

My reasons for putting Retford up there are well-known, but might be worth repeating?

 

1. It's a model of an actual prototype (unless any layout, however well made, satisfies that requirement, it'll never be on my list).  

 

2. Not only (1) but it's a model of a Class 1, trunk main line prototype. In other words, it's huge, and a good big-un always beats a good little-un in my book.

 

3. It's as near dead-scale as makes no distance (the only 'compromises' I can detect are where the main lines goes on-/off-stage at the south end, and both ends of the GC).

 

4.  It's full of actual 'modelling'. It's not reliant on RTR or the power of the chequebook. 

 

5. The pedigree behind it is impeccable.

 

6. It works; stuttering, derailments and poor running were not (and are still not) tolerated. 

 

7. It's heroic in every department, even though, I concede, it's not finished. It needed the vision of one of the greatest modellers in history to actually get the creation started. 

 

8. And, the most personal reason; I was an inhabitant of 'the wall' during the period the layout depicts. 

 

Enough reasons?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

I think Retford is very much your sort of layout Tony.

 

It just isn't mine.

 

Any layout that I got bored operating wouldn't make it onto my list and that was where I felt Retford didn't tick my personal boxes. A running day consisted of around 90 trains going round and a handful stopping and doing something. You may have noticed that my involvement with running the layout gradually declined to the point where I didn't really get involved.

 

Roy was always unhappy with the operational side of it and never really did much about it other than moan about the operators!

 

When we started running the sequence, all the visitors would line up along the layout and after 20 minutes, all but perhaps 2 or 3 had drifted away and were in groups chatting or watching Black Lion Crossing or Blakeney.

 

I think the appeal of yet another big engine going round on yet another express was interesting for a short while but not for 6 hours!

 

I found that running trains round a big circle for the enjoyment of a couple of people when there were maybe 100 people there was not my idea of fun, as I could never get to talk to anybody. So I packed in volunteering to work North Box and enjoyed the later sessions as I could mingle and chat.

 

Yet I have operated Buckingham for whole days at a time and never got tired or bored, just loving every moment. Every single train does something different to what the previous one did.

 

I remember one special session with Geoff Taylor. He was going to call for "a couple of hours" on his way to a Retford running day. He arrived around 11.00am and the next thing we knew was an irate phone call from Roy at 6pm asking where we were as food was being served.

 

That is not to belittle Retford or what Roy and the "mob" achieved. It clearly resonates with many people including you and it is a magnificent layout, even unfinished.

 

I am simply trying to explain why it isn't "my sort of layout" because it doesn't give me the "buzz" that operating Buckingham, or indeed Narrow Road, or even little Leighton Buzzard, give me.

 

Roy, like you, was not interested in operating. I think the design of the layout and the controls is reflected in that. 

 

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

Best layout ever, it is very subjective and completely based on our own biases.  There will be people who see a four track mainline - no stations, no sidings just trains thundering around sometimes four all at once, all with sound, lights, buses on bridges, weddings, campfires, burning buildings, police chases, moving cars, a fully functioning fairground including all the cacophony and declare it is the best layout they have ever seen.

 

In fact there was a layout once where the centre of the model was an all singing and dancing fairground, it was well modelled but the look on the face of the person whose railway was next to it said volumes of how frustrating it was having that booming out all day with no escape.

[St Enodoc]

The best layout ever?

 

The one I'm building at the moment...

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Best layout ever, it is very subjective and completely based on our own biases.  There will be people who see a four track mainline - no stations, no sidings just trains thundering around sometimes four all at once, all with sound, lights, buses on bridges, weddings, campfires, burning buildings, police chases, moving cars, a fully functioning fairground including all the cacophony and declare it is the best layout they have ever seen.

 

In fact there was a layout once where the centre of the model was an all singing and dancing fairground, it was well modelled but the look on the face of the person whose railway was next to it said volumes of how frustrating it was having that booming out all day with no escape.

Know how he felt. I once spent a day operating next to a layout with a recorded "countryside sounds" loop running continuously. 

 

Hated the sound of sheep for months afterwards....

 

John

[john new]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

You're all wrong. The World's Greatest Model Railway was built by Bertram Otto. It says so on the front of this book so it must be true.

 

https://www.transportstore.com/Montagu-Motor-Museum-The-Worlds-Greatest-Model-Railway-Created-By-Bertram-Otto-Book-23573-1895.cfm

 

I saw a version at Olympia more than 50 years ago.

I know I saw it at Beaulieu many, many years ago, (pre-1972 when we left the area) but have no real memory of it, so whilst it may have been big, it can’t have been that impressive to me as a boy. 

[bbishop]

I am in a similar situation to Andrew.  I was building the "last great project", 56' x 2'8" of 0 gauge, including two fiddle yards 12' long.  The final job was to build a small Endstation in front of a fiddle yard.  Well, it is hard to shift 4' boards on one's own, so the LGP is on hold and the branch terminus is entered in the Guild small layout competition. It is much easier to work solo on an 18' x 1' layout.  But I will have lost two years with the LGB and will be over 70 and looking to hire a Transit.  So possibly another aborted exhibition layout.  I suppose the only benefit is the fiddle yard boards acting as a base for the station boards.  Bill

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

I couldn't possibly pick a "G.O.A.T", but I could manage a selection after the fashion of Desert Island Discs. 

 

Mind you, I also have a few (mainly historical) favourites which wouldn't get into any "Best Of" compilation by today's standards, but which greatly influenced the development of the hobby. Mac Pyrke's "Berrow" and David Jenkinson's "Marthwaite" spring immediately to mind.

 

John

 

I think we have to accept that we all have our own preferences and ideas about what makes for a good layout.

 

Much of what is on Buckingham has been exceeded in terms of the quality of individual models but in terms of design and the joy of operating it, I have never seen anything better and I don't expect to.

 

 

 

[bbishop]

13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

In fact there was a layout once where the centre of the model was an all singing and dancing fairground, it was well modelled but the look on the face of the person whose railway was next to it said volumes of how frustrating it was having that booming out all day with no escape.

Nothing is worse than a 4mm diesel depot with a couple of dozen locos all going "thrum - thrum - thrum" all day long.  The bliss when the fuses tripped .....  Bill

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think we have to accept that we all have our own preferences and ideas about what makes for a good layout.

 

Much of what is on Buckingham has been exceeded in terms of the quality of individual models but in terms of design and the joy of operating it, I have never seen anything better and I don't expect to.

 

 

 

I tend to agree, I had the honour of operating Buckingham a good many years ago and greatly enjoyed it. Buckingham occupies both my categories of historically influential favourites and contenders for G.O.A.T. 

 

I definitely come down on your side of the Operational interest vs. Watching trains go by divide, though the latter do come into their own as exhibition attractions.

 

John

Edited January 13, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[t-b-g]

5 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Nothing is worse than a 4mm diesel depot with a couple of dozen locos all going "thrum - thrum - thrum" all day long.  The bliss when the fuses tripped .....  Bill

 

Nothing except the same in O gauge with bigger speakers and louder sound

 

I visited a show once that had 8 O gauge diesel depots, all with loud sound echoing throughout the venue. I didn't stay long. I fully appreciate that some people actually like that sort of thing. but it is just not for me!

[4630]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Tony,

 

'I always think that any such labels, unless you have a way of measuring what greatness means, are arbitrary and based on personal preferences.'

 

5. The pedigree behind it is impeccable.

 

Enough reasons?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good afternoon Tony.

 

Whilst acknowledging that any list and the order of it will always be a personal preference, I mostly agreed with the majority on your list.

 

I feel that 1. and 2. on your list will, by default unfortunately, exclude some otherwise excellent examples of modelling, but if that’s your opinion, so be it.

 

What I am struggling with though is your category of 5.

 

What in a railway modelling context do you mean by ‘pedigree’?
 

I assume it’s the layout rather than the owner(!) but I’m not entirely sure.  So what were you driving at with that one?

As always, thanks to you and others who post in ‘Wright writes...’ for thought provoking  content. 
 

Russ

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, 4630 said:

What I am struggling with though is your category of 5.

 

What in a railway modelling context do you mean by ‘pedigree’?

 

My reading of that was that a layout built by some lone wolf who was not part of the exhibition circuit's and magazines' "inner circle" was to be discounted. Which is why you justly question it: it needs urgent clarification.

[grahame]

Hmm, yes, pedigree?

 

Perhaps one with no lineage or breeding, a real mongrel, or dog of a layout.

 

  ;-)