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On the subject of LNER coaches, I am detailing a D154 52'6" chassis.  The MJT underframe arrangement drawing shows the vacuum reservoir cylinder between the truss post and the vacuum cylinder-this is fine for a 61'6" chassis, but not a shorty.  Can anyone advise the location, Please?

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If you are using a 51' MJT underframe it includes the locations for components on the etch. As it happens this is also a D154. There are no reservoirs on the shortys that I am aware of.

 

 

D154-5.jpg

Edited by Bucoops
corrected underframe length
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12 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks Tony,

 

Don’t go to any special trouble on my behalf - I thought with your encyclopaedic knowledge you’d know the answer straight off. I have checked my main A4 books ( ‘Power of’, Pirt’s ‘Gresleys A4s’ and Tuffrey) but don’t have the Irwell book. Does that have dates for detail changes? If so, I’ll have to invest. 
 

Looking  for a picture of the loco in Summer 1957 is quite hard. Especially difficult having chosen a preserved one, as putting 60009 Elizabethan into google throws up a multitude of railtours - even if I add the date it seems to ignore me!
 

All the best

 

Andy

 

Andy,

 

I checked up my photos of 60009 and have a couple taken in 1957 and the plates are on the cab sides.  For your info it was on the Lizzie on only 4 occasions in 1957.

 

Eric

 

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35 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

If you are using a 52'6 MJT underframe it includes the locations for components on the etch. As it happens this is also a D154. There are no reservoirs on the shortys that I am aware of.

 

 

D154-5.jpg

Thanks Bucoops-you are at exactly the same stage as me, with Fox bogies and MJT suspension.  I scratched the turnbuckle underframe, as the 2D etches looked unsatisfactory to me.

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13 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Thank you Tony - I wouldn't have thought of looking there!  I was wondering where I should put them, if I took them off the cab sides.  I'm not sure how I'd attach the extra strip to the bottom of the Hornby tender as it should be flush with the sides, so I'm afraid I'll probably have to leave it, unfortunately.

 

Good morning Steve,

 

Exposing (yet again!) my hypocrisy, I've omitted the extra strip from the soleplate of my 60013's white metal tender as well. The triangular support brackets underneath protrude right to the edge, and to attach a strip would mean it not being flush. 

 

I've done it on three brass tenders behind A4s (two x Pro-scale and one x Crownline) I've built because their supports don't stick out that far. Filing/cutting back the supports on the SE Finecast tender without the risk of biting into the tender sides seemed a step too far for me. With a machine tool, perhaps? A milling machine?

 

The problem is that all the 'Coronation' A4s (whether they had second-hand 1928 corridor tenders or new ones all had this extra strip). A few changed post-War (MALLARD got one) and 60009 changed tenders from time to time, but 10, 11, 12 and 13 retained theirs to the end. 

 

Three non-corridor tenders also got the extra strip - 60001 and 60002, plus the one from the blown-up A4 at York, which eventually went behind 60507. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
typo error
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28 minutes ago, 60027Merlin said:

 

Andy,

 

I checked up my photos of 60009 and have a couple taken in 1957 and the plates are on the cab sides.  For your info it was on the Lizzie on only 4 occasions in 1957.

 

Eric

 

Many thanks Eric, that’s very useful confirmation

 

I will have to get some transfers from Fox. I have the Sprinbok plaques in my Modelmaster pack but not the coats of arms. How do people model the coat of arms on the cab side as it was mounted on a plaque? The plaque seems to be painted green as per the rest of the loco, so I’m thinking of using a very thin sheet of plasticard or even a square of paper painted over with an attempt to match the Hornby green.

 

I'm aware that it only worked four times (Sir has already made me well aware of the facts!) but I model the 1957 Lizzie and as I have the rake in maroon with a buffet car there’s not much choice about that. I know 60012 was the regular Scottish engine that year, but I want an excuse to run 60009 because it’s my favourite A4 and as I model the south of the ECML, it’s the only real excuse (apart from a works running in trip). Four trips is better than none - I have 60013 on the train at the moment!

 

Andy

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1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Steve,

 

Exposing (yet again!) my hypocrisy, I've omitted the extra strip from the soleplate of my 60013's white metal tender as well. The triangular support brackets underneath protrude right to the edge, and to attach a strip would mean it not being flush. 

 

I've done it on three brass tenders behind A4s (two x Pro-scale and one x Crownline) I've built because their supports don't stick out that far. Filing/cutting back the supports on the SE Finecast tender without the risk of biting into the tender sides seemed a step too far for me. With a machine tool, perhaps? A milling machime?

 

The problem is that all the 'Coronation' A4s (whether they had second-hand 1928 corridor tenders or new ones all had this extra strip). A few changed post-War (MALLARD got one) and 60009 changed tenders from time to time, but 10, 11, 12 and 13 retained theirs to the end. 

 

Three non-corridor tenders also got the extra strip - 60001 and 60002, plus the one from the blown-up A4 at York, which eventually went behind 60507. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Thank you for the information, Tony.  I have another Hornby A4 waiting in the wings for me to decide what to do with it; this one is single chimneyed 60025 and has a 1928 corridor tender, so I shall have to be careful if I decide to renumber it.  I had bought a double chimney for it and a set of red nameplates, but then discovered that it had a different type of tender by the time it got a double chimney!  Such are the pitfalls ....

 

I think it might be easier to add the strip to a Hornby tender; I would cut the floor back to allow the strip (of plastic) to be added to the bottom of the side, with a reinforcing strip behind attaching it to the existing side.  I'm pretty sure it would mean a complete repaint, though!

 

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9 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

The plaque seems to be painted green as per the rest of the loco, so I’m thinking of using a very thin sheet of plasticard or even a square of paper painted over with an attempt to match the Hornby green.

 

I think that is what I would do; probably using 5 thou plasticard (or perhaps you could get away with 10 thou).  The Humbrol Acrylic BR Green is a good match for the Hornby colour.  I don't usually get on very well with acrylic paints, but I used it to paint the new lamp irons on 60013's tender and have also used it successfully to paint out the yellow panels on the fronts of diesels.

 

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12 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Tony,

 

There are a number of features that are present on the South Yorkshireman that are not an issue on the Elizabethan. You will have replaced the aforementioned under scale bogies, as the PV stock had H D bogies throughout. The torpedoed vents that I used are horrible great chunky affairs, future builds standardised on a much neater scale version.  The Elizabethan of course didn't require torpedo vents.  The TK's suffer from the corridor windows having the windows transposed, a fault on the Comet artwork. I believe tis was corrected after the sale of the company. The paint finish is neatly applied but looks disappointingly RTR. Nowadays it would have more of a sheen, rather than just going with a semi gloss varnish supplied by a manufacturer. The Elizabethan has a much more realistic looking finish, even after all these years.

 

The roof boards brackets didn't work very well and still work lose, they need replacing. In addition to the battery boxes, the dynamo, vac cylinders and reservoir were replace on later builds, the original dynamo in particular looks quite comical. There are other more dated aspects to the build, for example retaining the original clip and fit attachment method between the bodies and the floor. What I learned from all this was, it was worth going that extra mile, as once something is finished it should be finished for life. In comparison a full set of Comet carriage kits was constructed for Tebay are still satisfactory all these years later.

 

I'm not sure of the date that the images were taken, I think after 1999 but before Tebay went of the circuit, I think in 2004. The images were shot in the club rooms at Shipley.

Thanks Andrew,

 

You raise a very interesting practical point (even a philosophical one?); that of a model being 'finished for life' (I like that phrase). 

 

Tracing my own model railway 'journey', I reached my personal plateau (I've never reached a peak) in the last decade of the last century, and haven't looked forward since. Thus, anything I've built in the last 20+ years is for 'life' now. In that respect, they're still 'satisfactory'. That's not to say those models shouldn't (couldn't?) be better (they really should be, and would be if I had the aptitude), but they are 'uniform' and all fit reasonably well into the overall 'picture' (now, Little Bytham). 

 

Older stuff still runs on Little Bytham and, down the years much of it has been 'upgraded'. By that, I mean the likes of brakes, lamp brackets/lamps and glazing on locos, etc. However, it becomes a case of ever-decreasing circles inasmuch as to 'fully' bring them up to the last 20-year standard, new motor/gearbox combinations, new wheels and, probably, complete repaints will be needed. When one is talking of 40+ locos, that isn't practicable, especially as they all still work very well (though older-fashioned open-framed motors with Romford gears are never going to be as sweet as modern cams with gearboxes). 

 

In this context the older stuff should only be viewed at a greater distance (the three foot rule?) as 'layout locos' and 'layout trains'. That said, your 'South Yorkshireman' is considerably more than just a 'layout train'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Exposing (yet again!) my hypocrisy,

 

Good morning Tony,

 

Very pleasant if fresh day in Buxton.

 

I think you are a little too harsh on yourself! Overlooking something is not really hypocrisy... and you admitted your mistake, that is admirable!

 

I can think of a few very senior people that could do with a bit of contrition!

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

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23 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Many thanks Eric, that’s very useful confirmation

 

I will have to get some transfers from Fox. I have the Sprinbok plaques in my Modelmaster pack but not the coats of arms. How do people model the coat of arms on the cab side as it was mounted on a plaque? The plaque seems to be painted green as per the rest of the loco, so I’m thinking of using a very thin sheet of plasticard or even a square of paper painted over with an attempt to match the Hornby green.

 

I'm aware that it only worked four times (Sir has already made me well aware of the facts!) but I model the 1957 Lizzie and as I have the rake in maroon with a buffet car there’s not much choice about that. I know 60012 was the regular Scottish engine that year, but I want an excuse to run 60009 because it’s my favourite A4 and as I model the south of the ECML, it’s the only real excuse (apart from a works running in trip). Four trips is better than none - I have 60013 on the train at the moment!

 

Andy

Good morning Andy,

 

Do you really need to make a backing piece for the coat of arms transfer?

 

Though I don't exactly know, the real coats of arms were painted on to mild steel plate; much thinner than the cabside steel. To scale it would be thinner than fag-paper; in fact, no thicker

than the transfer paper itself. I'd just put the transfer straight on. How does Hornby do it (if they do it)? 

 

Don't forget that 60009 retained a single chimney in 1957 and had the extra strip at the base of its tender.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

 

Do you really need to make a backing piece for the coat of arms transfer?

 

Though I don't exactly know, the real coats of arms were painted on to mild steel plate; much thinner than the cabside steel. To scale it would be thinner than fag-paper; in fact, no thicker

than the transfer paper itself. I'd just put the transfer straight on. How does Hornby do it (if they do it)? 

 

I can’t believe that ‘Sir’ is recommending that I copy another model, let alone one from Hornby!

 

Seriously, I agree that it would be waver thin in 4mm but it is noticeable in prototype photos, so worth including even if it has to be slightly over scale to be noticeable. Maybe the transfer backing sheet would service the purpose as you suggest. Hornby seem to stick the transfer straight on although my 60013 (bought second hand) has builders plates where the coat of arms should be so I can’t check close up.

 

Quote

 

Don't forget that 60009 retained a single chimney in 1957 and had the extra strip at the base of its tender.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I was aware from your previous posts which are bookmarked and regularly referred to. My donor has a single chimney but I’ve still got to work out how to apply the tender base strip to a Hornby tender.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited by thegreenhowards
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32 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I can’t believe that ‘Sir’ is recommending that I copy another model, let alone one from Hornby!

 

Seriously, I agree that it would be waver thin in 4mm but it is noticeable in prototype photos, so worth including even if it has to be slightly over scale to be noticeable. Maybe the transfer backing sheet would service the purpose as you suggest.

 

The transfers from Fox (no connection) include an outline of the crest "plate", I would agree with Tony that the transfer is sufficient.

 

Chas

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Some interesting books for me to review in BRM this month...................

 

Tony,

 

Colin Boocock was a former collegue of mine when the DM&EE existed (now, all those years ago!) we both worked at the Railway Technical Centre in Derby. He is a very decent type of chap, if I recall, he became involved in the railway running in Markeaton Park Derby.

Obviousely you must comment on his book as you see fit! Mr Bullied was though, the last great steam locomotive engineer so lets hope Colin's book does him justice.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

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A few weeks ago there was a lot of talk on here around using Johnsons Klear to improve the colour on Hornby locos, given how much I dislike Hornby's shade of GWR green I want to give it a try.   My first test was on a Hornby 38xx body which is going to be resprayed eventually into GWR black, which did show an improvement in colour but a slightly patchy finish.  I put this down to the temperature of the Klear (which had just come in from the garage.)  It has also proved very difficult to photograph!

 

This was followed the next day with an application over a section of Hornby Pullman side (on a model on which I will be removing the sides as part of my attempt at converting it into something resembling a 1951 build VSOE Pullman.)   For a clean coach I think it makes quite a difference, I am going to experiment some more with the old side and see how the glossier brown looks once weathered.

43294227-CD97-4B7D-9FBB-E1DFEF51EE39.jpeg.6594c3c2bf4c4483fe33d6a88145245a.jpeg

 

Finally I wanted to test application, a lot of people have mentioned brushing the Klear on as opposed to spraying it.  I am always rather suspect with anything brush painted, having always struggled to avoid it looking streaky so figured it was worth while testing on something else before risking a King or a Castle.  Fortunately a 1999 condition Flying Scotsman has been sat on the shelf behind me for several years waiting for me to rewheel the tender back to OO (when I finally get round to sourcing wheels).  So it has been given two coats of Klear (the first looked a little streaky, the second a bit better but still not up to spraying standards.)  I think I will have to bite the bullet and put the stuff through my airbrush.   I do like the slight change in colour, and for a preserved steam loco the glossier finish is closer to the real thing than the RTR satin.   I have only painted the green areas (and ignored the wheels given they will need dirtying up).  It will need some light weathering to the smokebox, boiler top and footplate eventually...

8B97F1EB-1055-4B6F-9DEF-78905E9B35B1.jpeg.e7d1979b0f32998fb7d074d96b4c7cd2.jpeg

 

 

With the modelling out of the way, a question...

I have been putting the finishing touches to my TPO formation.  For the majority of the coaches I have used Comet gangways which will be fitted with card bellows to fill the gap.  However one job that is still outstanding is the fitting of retracted gangways  to the outer coach ends (and to the siphon G on the front with central gangways).  I dont think a normal moulded gangway doesnt look right for something that should be retracted, so I am very interested to see how others have tackled this problem.  

Thanks 

Rich

Edited by The Fatadder
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2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

 

I can’t believe that ‘Sir’ is recommending that I copy another model, let alone one from Hornby!

 

Seriously, I agree that it would be waver thin in 4mm but it is noticeable in prototype photos, so worth including even if it has to be slightly over scale to be noticeable. Maybe the transfer backing sheet would service the purpose as you suggest. Hornby seem to stick the transfer straight on although my 60013 (bought second hand) has builders plates where the coat of arms should be so I can’t check close up.

 

 

I was aware from your previous posts which are bookmarked and regularly referred to. My donor has a single chimney but I’ve still got to work out how to apply the tender base strip to a Hornby tender.

 

Regards

 

Andy

I don't think I recommended that you copy another model, Andy.

 

I just asked how Hornby applied the coats of arms. 

 

You're right in stating that the plates are visible in prototype pictures (usually because dirt has accumulated around them after cleaning), but, to scale, it would still be only wafer-thin. 

 

I honestly don't know; I'm lucky in that my choice for the A4s carrying coats of arms had lost hers by 1958 (probably earlier) so the lower cabside is just blank. Did Hornby do 60013 then, with a worksplate? Since I only usually build models of the locos I saw, then I'd have to consider just 60009 or 60010 in future, both of which (it would seem) carried their coats of arms to the end. That said, the last time I saw 60010 she was minus her chimney, and I can't remember if her cabside plates were still on. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

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4 hours ago, jrg1 said:

Thanks Bucoops-you are at exactly the same stage as me, with Fox bogies and MJT suspension.  I scratched the turnbuckle underframe, as the 2D etches looked unsatisfactory to me.

 

What body are you using? I've had to do quite a few modifications to the RDEB one.

 

Agreed the trussing could be better but I'll probably stick with the etched ones. I have used nuts instead of the supplied washers for where they are attached to the queen posts.

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35 minutes ago, richard i said:

Retracted gangways


 

different width plasticard to look like the bellows, paper on top and brass front.  Depth of plasticard was 0.25 and 0.5 alternating.

not perfectly accurate but once mucky black and at speed.....

richard 

That looks an ideal solution, If I am seeing it correctly you have used 3 layers of 0.5mm + the outer brass layer and 3 of 0.25?  I think I should be able to draw up the GWR gangway pretty easily in CAD and run some off with my silhouette cutter 

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6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

You raise a very interesting practical point (even a philosophical one?); that of a model being 'finished for life' (I like that phrase). 

 

Tracing my own model railway 'journey', I reached my personal plateau (I've never reached a peak) in the last decade of the last century, and haven't looked forward since. Thus, anything I've built in the last 20+ years is for 'life' now. In that respect, they're still 'satisfactory'. That's not to say those models shouldn't (couldn't?) be better (they really should be, and would be if I had the aptitude), but they are 'uniform' and all fit reasonably well into the overall 'picture' (now, Little Bytham). 

 

Older stuff still runs on Little Bytham and, down the years much of it has been 'upgraded'. By that, I mean the likes of brakes, lamp brackets/lamps and glazing on locos, etc. However, it becomes a case of ever-decreasing circles inasmuch as to 'fully' bring them up to the last 20-year standard, new motor/gearbox combinations, new wheels and, probably, complete repaints will be needed. When one is talking of 40+ locos, that isn't practicable, especially as they all still work very well (though older-fashioned open-framed motors with Romford gears are never going to be as sweet as modern cams with gearboxes). 

 

In this context the older stuff should only be viewed at a greater distance (the three foot rule?) as 'layout locos' and 'layout trains'. That said, your 'South Yorkshireman' is considerably more than just a 'layout train'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good Evening Tony,

 

Being 'finished' for life is about being happy and satisfied with what you've done, I use it as a reminder when modelling is not always going to plan or if laziness tries to sneak in. All railway modelling is about compromise, it depends as an individual were you are happy to draw that line. with the South Yorkshireman, everything was new, the bar had yet to be set. By the time I had completed the MJT RF for the formation, I had started inserting doors into the Twin FO-FO. I realised my expectations were set too low, for what I could have done with the Bachman conversions. They are not bad carriages by any means. However, they still niggle at me, as not being as good as they could have been. This was due to my lack of experience of managing and working on such large project. It was always in the back of my mind, that one day I would come back and 'complete them'. 

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