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1 minute ago, LNER4479 said:

Indeed! And I hope that you take my post in the manner in which it was intended (I think you do!), ie to highlight a source of humour rather than pick fault. It certainly brought a smile to my face when I initially read it.

Exactly as you observe, Graham,

 

Would that more saw the humorous, non-picking fault intentions in many posts.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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25 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Rooting through the Midland Railway (and its successors) model railway images, I came across Chee Tor, late of the Manchester MRS.

Surely one of the finest model railways ever made (in any scale or gauge)? It's 2mm FS if anyone were not sure. 

 

I will 100% agree with that statement - with the caveat that I can only judge layouts I have seen first hand - but it is a close-run thing with Copenhagen Fields.  These are certainly two of the very best "railways in the landscape" (but in very different landscapes!) and are the best demonstrations of where railway modellers create works of art, not just a model of a railway.

I once spent about 3 hours at the 1993 Wigan Show and probably spent half that watching Chee Tor, I just had to keep going back for another viewing.

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10 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I will 100% agree with that statement - with the caveat that I can only judge layouts I have seen first hand - but it is a close-run thing with Copenhagen Fields.  These are certainly two of the very best "railways in the landscape" (but in very different landscapes!) and are the best demonstrations of where railway modellers create works of art, not just a model of a railway.

I once spent about 3 hours at the 1993 Wigan Show and probably spent half that watching Chee Tor, I just had to keep going back for another viewing.

Northmoor,

I agree whole heartedly with your comments, but would had a third "Totnes" .

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4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

In recent posts two S words have appeared in relation to soldering, "skill" and "secrets".  No wonder some people get put off. I think we should describe soldering as nothing more than a simple process with some readily  understood rules, which if followed, will result in success. Put simply, "mechanical" cleanliness, a suitable flux and solder for the job, a suitable soldering iron (temperature and power ). What else, not much I can think of. 

Admittedly poor use of the word 'secret' by me. Probably could have said the 'key to....

 

Andrew

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2 hours ago, Anglian said:

 

I very much agree but feel Chiltern Green has to be added to this list and perhaps Chipping Norton.

I agree as well,

 

Though I have no photographs of Chiltern Green nor Chipping Norton in my collection to show on here. 

 

Neither do I have shots of Gransmoor Castle; the forerunner of Chee Tor from Manchester. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
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5 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Northmoor,

I agree whole heartedly with your comments, but would had a third "Totnes" .

 

3 hours ago, Anglian said:

 

I very much agree but feel Chiltern Green has to be added to this list and perhaps Chipping Norton.

 

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I will 100% agree with that statement - with the caveat that I can only judge layouts I have seen first hand - but it is a close-run thing with Copenhagen Fields.  These are certainly two of the very best "railways in the landscape" (but in very different landscapes!) and are the best demonstrations of where railway modellers create works of art, not just a model of a railway.

 

To the burgeoning list of small scale/gauge miniature marvel layouts, I'd add two that particularly floated my boat: Acton Main Line (I've no pics of the original layout but it became changed in period and era when sold) and the recent Blueball Summit:

 

DSC_8345red.jpg.a7410c1686676cf1e665642e9939b5ba.jpg

 

DSC_8333crred.jpg.4792ca60f551e1c6562d91704d7a158c.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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Nickel Silver vs Phosphor Bronze puckups, fitting around LMS chassis suspension and fully isolated chassis for DCC on brass kits?

 

Slightly keeping with the recent posts about modelling the LMS/LMR, I would like to ask about the experience people have in fitting pickups for LMS and their constituent companies on brass kits.

 

I am a novice when it comes to building brass locos, or at least the frames. Greatly inspired by this thread and the fantastic work I saw as a member of Leeds MRS, I have built two locos, one works, the other I have gained experince to get working soon (I hope). I think they would both benefit from an expert’s eye even if they work OK in the end.

 

I have received some excellent advice on my layout thread ‘Ellerby’, especially from Barry O and Lezz01, which has got one of my chassis working, bar a little fine tuning I suspect.
 

I have followed Tony’s DVD for building locos fairly closely, but there are a couple of things where I have found my build and advice has been different from Tony’s guide.

 

Firstly, my layout is DCC. Heresy I hear some say, but that is what it is. I know that you can build DCC locos with a live chassis, but there also seems to be a lot of posts saying it is safer to build a fully isolated chassis, so I have gone down that route.

 

Safer electrically for DCC but twice as much drag from pickups.

 

I have heard of plunger pickups, but have just gone the wires route, easier for a novice I suspect.

 

The two locos I have built both have suspension/springs dropped down behind the wheels, London Road Models L&Y Class 23 and a Comet Caprotti Black 5. These springs means that the pickups have to have a tighter angle to the wheels, consequently less spring and more friction.

Class23_034.jpg

 

Class23_060.jpg

 

I followed Tony’s advice of using nickel silver pickups, but he does mention that some people prefer phosphor bronze, and that is the advice I have received from some others. With the greater spring and wider angle of pickups to the wheels of some chassis there may be little difference, but I wonder if working around the suspension mouldings means that there starts to be a an advantage for using phosphor bronze. Less drag? I hope this isn’t a can of worms question.

 

I would be very interested to know what people’s experince are of building chassis like the ones I have done and what their advice is. How people have dealt with DCC and brass kits, and how do you fit/route the pickups around the suspension?

 

While I am posting, another excellent piece of advice I was given (by Lezz01) was to make sure that the drive cog(s) are centred to the worm screw, thanks Lezz01. My layout is OO gauge, so the drive cog tends to naturally sit very much to the side of the worm cog, but with some washers and a little filing down of the grub screw side of the cog I was able to centre it, with improved traction. You can see that above, but more clearly in this image. I hope this might be helpful to any other beginners in OO loco building.

Class23_061.jpg

 

I have built coaches and DMUs, and done conversion kits, so above the frame my experience is much better. I find working in brass much more enjoyable and allows for a lot of fine detailing that working in plastic is just doesn’t allow, or is too fragile. Still needs some cleaning up ahead of spraying with primer.

Class23_042.jpg

 

Class23_048.jpg

 

Class23_045.jpg

 

Anyway, thank you all who have inspired me in this thread, and I hope these questions give some interesting room for discussion.
 

Jamie

Edited by Jamiel
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22 minutes ago, Jamiel said:

Nickel Silver vs Phosphor Bronze puckups, fitting around LMS chassis suspension and fully isolated chassis for DCC on brass kits?

 

Slightly keeping with the recent posts about modelling the LMS/LMR, I would like to ask about the experience people have in fitting pickups for LMS and their constituent companies on brass kits.

 

I am a novice when it comes to building brass locos, or at least the frames. Greatly inspired by this thread and the fantastic work I saw as a member of Leeds MRS, I have built two locos, one works, the other I have gained experince to get working soon (I hope). I think they would both benefit from an expert’s eye even if they work OK in the end.

 

I have received some excellent advice on my layout thread ‘Ellerby’, especially from Barry O and Lezz01, which has got one of my chassis working, bar a little fine tuning I suspect.
 

I have followed Tony’s DVD for building locos fairly closely, but there are a couple of things where I have found my build and advice has been different from Tony’s guide.

 

Firstly, my layout is DCC. Heresy I hear some say, but that is what it is. I know that you can build DCC locos with a live chassis, but there also seems to be a lot of posts saying it is safer to build a fully isolated chassis, so I have gone down that route.

 

Safer electrically for DCC but twice as much drag from pickups.

 

I have heard of plunger pickups, but have just gone the wires route, easier for a novice I suspect.

 

The two locos I have built both have suspension/springs dropped down behind the wheels, London Road Models L&Y Class 23 and a Comet Caprotti Black 5. These springs means that the pickups have to have a tighter angle to the wheels, consequently less spring and more friction.

Class23_034.jpg

 

Class23_060.jpg

 

I followed Tony’s advice of using nickel silver pickups, but he does mention that some people prefer phosphor bronze, and that is the advice I have received from some others. With the greater spring and wider angle of pickups to the wheels of some chassis there may be little difference, but I wonder if working around the suspension mouldings means that there starts to be a an advantage for using phosphor bronze. Less drag? I hope this isn’t a can of worms question.

 

I would be very interested to know what people’s experince are of building chassis like the ones I have done and what their advice is. How people have dealt with DCC and brass kits, and how do you fit/route the pickups around the suspension?

 

While I am posting, another excellent piece of advice I was given (by Lezz01) was to make sure that the drive cog(s) are centred to the worm screw, thanks Lezz01. My layout is OO gauge, so the drive cog tends to naturally sit very much to the side of the worm cog, but with some washers and a little filing down of the grub screw side of the cog I was able to centre it, with improved traction. You can see that above, but more clearly in this image. I hope this might be helpful to any other beginners in OO loco building.

Class23_061.jpg

 

I have built coaches and DMUs, and done conversion kits, so above the frame my experience is much better. I find working in brass much more enjoyable and allows for a lot of fine detailing that working in plastic is just doesn’t allow, or is too fragile. Still needs some cleaning up ahead of spraying with primer.

Class23_042.jpg

 

Class23_048.jpg

 

Class23_045.jpg

 

Anyway, thank you all who have inspired me in this thread, and I hope these questions give some interesting room for discussion.
 

Jamie

All my locos have a live chassis and are DCC I don't really see why it is any different in that regard to DC. You still have to eliminate shorts and DCC is very sensitive to them but it's not like it would be good practice to have intermittent shorting on DC.

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The discussion of 2mm scale layouts has been interesting. I remember seeing Chiltern Green many decades ago and being very impressed. I also recall seeing Gransmoor Castle but have no recollection of ever having seen Chee Tor, which looks excellent in the photos, apart from the Blue Pullman livery (the kitchen first is carrying the style carried by the first set, which was altered before entering service). I thought Blueball Summit was good too. However, layouts in that scale rarely capture my attention for long as they are often too toy-train-ish or the trains lack realism in one way or another. 

 

Banbury is also worth a mention and is a good layout. You know instantly what it is a model of, which is always a good sign for models of an actual location. My main complaint is that it would be much more interesting to me if it had been set circa 1960.

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10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Excellent Andy,

 

Did you fit a different-style whistle to number 13? It had a NZR one, not a chime. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony,

 

No I didn’t fit a different whistle to No.13. To be honest I’d forgotten all about that until you mentioned it but I should have remembered. It doesn’t look that different in photos. Can anyone recommend any close up photos? I don’t suppose it’s available to buy as a part?

 

Andy

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2 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks Tony,

 

No I didn’t fit a different whistle to No.13. To be honest I’d forgotten all about that until you mentioned it but I should have remembered. It doesn’t look that different in photos. Can anyone recommend any close up photos? I don’t suppose it’s available to buy as a part?

 

Andy

 

My friend John Shaw had already altered the whistle before he passed his 60013 on to me.  I think he said he slipped a piece of small brass tube over the Hornby whistle and cut a slot in the front of it!

 

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1 minute ago, 31A said:

 

My friend John Shaw had already altered the whistle before he passed his 60013 on to me.  I think he said he slipped a piece of small brass tube over the Hornby whistle and cut a slot in the front of it!

 

That’s about all the difference I could see from the photos. Could you manage a close up of your model?

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3 hours ago, Jamiel said:

Nickel Silver vs Phosphor Bronze puckups, fitting around LMS chassis suspension and fully isolated chassis for DCC on brass kits?

 

Slightly keeping with the recent posts about modelling the LMS/LMR, I would like to ask about the experience people have in fitting pickups for LMS and their constituent companies on brass kits.

 

I am a novice when it comes to building brass locos, or at least the frames. Greatly inspired by this thread and the fantastic work I saw as a member of Leeds MRS, I have built two locos, one works, the other I have gained experince to get working soon (I hope). I think they would both benefit from an expert’s eye even if they work OK in the end.

 

I have received some excellent advice on my layout thread ‘Ellerby’, especially from Barry O and Lezz01, which has got one of my chassis working, bar a little fine tuning I suspect.
 

I have followed Tony’s DVD for building locos fairly closely, but there are a couple of things where I have found my build and advice has been different from Tony’s guide.

 

Firstly, my layout is DCC. Heresy I hear some say, but that is what it is. I know that you can build DCC locos with a live chassis, but there also seems to be a lot of posts saying it is safer to build a fully isolated chassis, so I have gone down that route.

 

Safer electrically for DCC but twice as much drag from pickups.

 

I have heard of plunger pickups, but have just gone the wires route, easier for a novice I suspect.

 

The two locos I have built both have suspension/springs dropped down behind the wheels, London Road Models L&Y Class 23 and a Comet Caprotti Black 5. These springs means that the pickups have to have a tighter angle to the wheels, consequently less spring and more friction.

Class23_034.jpg

 

Class23_060.jpg

 

I followed Tony’s advice of using nickel silver pickups, but he does mention that some people prefer phosphor bronze, and that is the advice I have received from some others. With the greater spring and wider angle of pickups to the wheels of some chassis there may be little difference, but I wonder if working around the suspension mouldings means that there starts to be a an advantage for using phosphor bronze. Less drag? I hope this isn’t a can of worms question.

 

I would be very interested to know what people’s experince are of building chassis like the ones I have done and what their advice is. How people have dealt with DCC and brass kits, and how do you fit/route the pickups around the suspension?

 

While I am posting, another excellent piece of advice I was given (by Lezz01) was to make sure that the drive cog(s) are centred to the worm screw, thanks Lezz01. My layout is OO gauge, so the drive cog tends to naturally sit very much to the side of the worm cog, but with some washers and a little filing down of the grub screw side of the cog I was able to centre it, with improved traction. You can see that above, but more clearly in this image. I hope this might be helpful to any other beginners in OO loco building.

Class23_061.jpg

 

I have built coaches and DMUs, and done conversion kits, so above the frame my experience is much better. I find working in brass much more enjoyable and allows for a lot of fine detailing that working in plastic is just doesn’t allow, or is too fragile. Still needs some cleaning up ahead of spraying with primer.

Class23_042.jpg

 

Class23_048.jpg

 

Class23_045.jpg

 

Anyway, thank you all who have inspired me in this thread, and I hope these questions give some interesting room for discussion.
 

Jamie

Good evening Jamie,

 

Model railway discussions (just like everything else) tend to be cyclic. That said your observations/questions are still very pertinent. 

 

I can only respond from my own experience. My comments (based on my own empirical evidence) are.

 

It's better to have a dead chassis for DCC rather than a live one, because there's far less of a risk of stray shorts. Yes, I know shorts are bad news for DC as well (a bogie wheel touching a frame for instance) but the result is far less-dramatic. With a stray DC short, the loco stutters. With a DCC short, everything shuts down! The latter said, I've built live-chassis locos and installed chips in them without any problems.

 

Pick-ups. Well, I've been told I've been living in the past (by one of your advisers) in my preferring nickel silver to phosphor bronze. As mentioned, I can only speak as I find, and, in my experience, phosphor bronze isn't springy enough (have you looked at some recent RTR pick-ups?) and it squeaks. 

 

The following pictures show my methods....................

 

2048480217_J6pick-ups.jpg.45b81b87b1d6c2492005214c55428690.jpg

 

This J6 chassis is twin beam-compensated. I didn't build it, but it came from Roy Jackson's estate (even though it's OO). When I say I didn't build it, that's true but I put the wheels on, made/installed the gearbox/motor drive and arranged the .45 nickel silver wire pick-ups. I then made the body (an SEF/Nu-cast kit). 

 

To all intents and purposes, the longer the pick-ups the better. There is a practical limit, of course, but it's better that the pick-up makes contact on the far side of the wheel, further away from the pad. That way there's plenty of springiness, flexibility and room for adjustment. 

 

You'll note that the pick-ups just rub on the edge of the flange.

 

97872318_8F12.jpg.ba283a7995713bef66cfcfbb37b2d120.jpg

 

Where there's a real risk of a short, I sleeve the pick-up with small-bore PVC tubing.

 

In this example, the pick-ups (via a little return) rub on the backs of the flanges; this gives a greater surface contact, but the simpler solution works as well. 

 

1575163252_MikeTriceV2203.jpg.b17c43acef790e0b6881a7aa78f8ecbf.jpg

 

The system works in the same way whatever the diameter of the drivers.

 

1302442875_MikeTriceV209.jpg.76c84384d4380aea0d6a08561758ee90.jpg

 

This one is a dead chassis (the only reason being that the set of drivers I had were all insulated). 

 

Now, what I've just presented will, no doubt, be questioned by some. That's inevitable. There are those who'll swear by a system and those who'll just swear at it. It's the same as with soldering techniques.

 

What I would say (without boasting, I hope) is I know that this system of pick-ups really does work. Approaching 500 loco builds must prove that. 

 

Those who've seen Stoke Summit, Charwelton and Little Bytham are the best arbiters, especially those who've driven the locos I've built and/or those who own them. 

 

One final point (for what it's worth); avoid plunger pick-ups like the plague!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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42 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks Tony,

 

No I didn’t fit a different whistle to No.13. To be honest I’d forgotten all about that until you mentioned it but I should have remembered. It doesn’t look that different in photos. Can anyone recommend any close up photos? I don’t suppose it’s available to buy as a part?

 

Andy

Neither did I! Once a hypocrite.........................

 

It was mainly the sound which was different, Andy.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

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42 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Jamie,

 

Model railway discussions (just like everything else) tend to be cyclic. That said your observations/questions are still very pertinent. 

 

I can only respond from my own experience. My comments (based on my own empirical evidence) are.

 

It's better to have a dead chassis for DCC rather than a live one, because there's far less of a risk of stray shorts. Yes, I know shorts are bad news for DC as well (a bogie wheel touching a frame for instance) but the result is far less-dramatic. With a stray DC short, the loco stutters. With a DCC short, everything shuts down! The latter said, I've built live-chassis locos and installed chips in them without any problems.

 

Pick-ups. Well, I've been told I've been living in the past (by one of your advisers) in my preferring nickel silver to phosphor bronze. As mentioned, I can only speak as I find, and, in my experience, phosphor bronze isn't springy enough (have you looked at some recent RTR pick-ups?) and it squeaks. 

 

The following pictures show my methods....................

 

2048480217_J6pick-ups.jpg.45b81b87b1d6c2492005214c55428690.jpg

 

This J6 chassis is twin beam-compensated. I didn't build it, but it came from Roy Jackson's estate (even though it's OO). When I say I didn't build it, that's true but I put the wheels on, made/installed the gearbox/motor drive and arranged the .45 nickel silver wire pick-ups. I then made the body (an SEF/Nu-cast kit). 

 

To all intents and purposes, the longer the pick-ups the better. There is a practical limit, of course, but it's better that the pick-up makes contact on the far side of the wheel, further away from the pad. That way there's plenty of springiness, flexibility and room for adjustment. 

 

You'll note that the pick-ups just rub on the edge of the flange.

 

97872318_8F12.jpg.ba283a7995713bef66cfcfbb37b2d120.jpg

 

Where there's a real risk of a short, I sleeve the pick-up with small-bore PVC tubing.

 

In this example, the pick-ups (via a little return) rub on the backs of the flanges; this gives a greater surface contact, but the simpler solution works as well. 

 

1575163252_MikeTriceV2203.jpg.b17c43acef790e0b6881a7aa78f8ecbf.jpg

 

The system works in the same way whatever the diameter of the drivers.

 

1302442875_MikeTriceV209.jpg.76c84384d4380aea0d6a08561758ee90.jpg

 

This one is a dead chassis (the only reason being that the set of drivers I had were all insulated). 

 

Now, what I've just presented will, no doubt, be questioned by some. That's inevitable. There are those who'll swear by a system and those who'll just swear at it. It's the same as with soldering techniques.

 

What I would say (without boasting, I hope) is I know that this system of pick-ups really does work. Approaching 500 loco builds must prove that. 

 

Those who've seen Stoke Summit, Charwelton and Little Bytham are the best arbiters, especially those who've driven the locos I've built and/or those who own them. 

 

One final point (for what it's worth); avoid plunger pick-ups like the plague!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Hi Tony

Thank you for your detailed and wonderfully illustrated reply.
 

I know there are differences of opinion between nickel silver and phosphor bronze, and it is interesting to hear that argument from both sides.
 

Good to hear your views on fully isolated chassis for DCC, I know that experienced model makers can make live chassis work for DCC, but as a relative novice I feel safer isolated.
 

A question about the chassis you shown. Have you cut back the suspension next to the wheels on the etch to allow the pickups to access the wheels and be better sprung on the bottom three photos?
 

Thank you again.

Jamie

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

It's better to have a dead chassis for DCC rather than a live one, because there's far less of a risk of stray shorts. Yes, I know shorts are bad news for DC as well (a bogie wheel touching a frame for instance) but the result is far less-dramatic. With a stray DC short, the loco stutters. With a DCC short, everything shuts down! The latter said, I've built live-chassis locos and installed chips in them without any problems.

If you have live chassis, sparks will fly when two locos are coupled front to front (or back to back) unless you have isolated the couplings and/or buffers.

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

 

I'll dig out some other 'smaller scale' layouts tomorrow.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the N/2mm layout pictures, and yes please, I'm looking forward to more. I find N/2mm my kind of layouts; the ones that I most relate to and enjoy. They are generally more the art form of railway modelling, in capturing the essence of the railway in a landscape. Unfortunately, IMO, there are also quite a few poor N gauge layouts lacking finesse and modelling effort.

 

OO/4mm never seems to quite do it for me and is often more about toy trains, usually not in an authentic setting and a discordant mish-mash of locos and trains, while O/7mm seems to concentrate on a few locos (usually very nicely), rather than a lengthy train and certainly very rarely depicting the railway in a landscape. However, of course, there are some very good, interesting and inspirational layouts in all scales.

 

 

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