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The professional worriers and self-appointed electronics police will no doubt be greatly disturbed to hear of the continued use of original H & M controllers, on account of the risk (real or alleged) of damage to sensitive modern motors and the potential for fire or electrocution if the controller develops an internal fault due to deterioration with age.

I'm still happy with the H & M units I have, albeit relegated to loco testing and reserve duties now.

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1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

As a die hard DC modeller who enjoys wiring layouts I like these DC vs DCC discussions. before I get to why I am a Dc modeller not a DCC one here is something to think about.

 

On the real railway the signalman/woman checks the line is clear, sets the route and then shows the driver it is OK to proceed by changing the signal to go. The driver then releases brakes and pulls on some sort of handle and off the train goes. 

 

On a DC powered trainset the operator (or in some cases the signalman/woman) checks the line is clear, sets the route and might have to switch the power sections on, if the layout has working signals sets them to go. Then normally the same person (sometimes a driver) twist a knob or slides a slidey thing and off goes the train.

 

On a DCC powered model railway the operator (or in some cases the signalman/woman) checks the line is clear, sets the route, if the layout has working signals sets them to go. Normally the same person (sometimes a driver) presses some buttons, depending on the set up all sorts of noises, flashing lights and some cases the brakes come off, then the operator twist a knob or slides a slidey thing and off goes the train.

 

Neither are that much different to how a real railway operates. So why am I so deeply routed in DC. It is cheaper to achieve the same thing as I want to do. My opinion. 

Either way, on any extensive layout, it's more satisfying to separate the signalling and driving functions, as on the prototype.

 

My pal's layout of Bournemouth Central is so configured. Route setting, section switching and signal clearing is done by the signalman from the "Mighty Wurlitzer". Drivers walk around the layout and drive to the signals using (wireless DC) handsets. 

 

DCC could do the same, eliminating the section switching, but the layout was started years before it was invented. It formerly used long-obsolete American-made radio throttles but we converted to Blue Railways controllers/handsets/smartphone apps a couple of years ago.

 

John

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25 minutes ago, gr.king said:

The professional worriers and self-appointed electronics police will no doubt be greatly disturbed to hear of the continued use of original H & M controllers, on account of the risk (real or alleged) of damage to sensitive modern motors and the potential for fire or electrocution if the controller develops an internal fault due to deterioration with age.

I'm still happy with the H & M units I have, albeit relegated to loco testing and reserve duties now.

 

Buckingham still has several as power packs and one panel mounted version to drive trains. I am happy as long as they have suitable fuses and trips and I don't leave them on when I am not running the layout.

 

We did have an incident at Missenden a few years ago, when a faulty H & M controller took out half the venue in terms of power supply, due to the varnish on the windings having deteriorated, so it isn't a made up problem but it may depend on what sorts of places and environments the units have been kept in. 

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The Tees Thames - carriage destination boards

 

A request for some help please. I am about to order some carriage destination boards for my model of the up Tees Thames express that I run on Stoke Summit but I have a question. The real train obviously carried  Tees Thames boards but I seem to think that it also carried Kings Cross - Saltburn boards and possibly also Kings Cross - Middlesbrough ones, which may have been combined to Kings Cross - Middlesbrough - Saltburn ones. Although I saw the train many times in the early 60s. I am afraid my memory draws a blank as to what the coach boards were. Any help would be very appreciated.

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2 hours ago, gr.king said:

The professional worriers and self-appointed electronics police will no doubt be greatly disturbed to hear of the continued use of original H & M controllers, on account of the risk (real or alleged) of damage to sensitive modern motors and the potential for fire or electrocution if the controller develops an internal fault due to deterioration with age.

I'm still happy with the H & M units I have, albeit relegated to loco testing and reserve duties now.

Judged by the prices paid for Duettes on eBay, you aren't alone.  I'd happily use my own one if I had a layout to connect it to.

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1 hour ago, mardle said:

The Tees Thames - carriage destination boards

 

A request for some help please. I am about to order some carriage destination boards for my model of the up Tees Thames express that I run on Stoke Summit but I have a question. The real train obviously carried  Tees Thames boards but I seem to think that it also carried Kings Cross - Saltburn boards and possibly also Kings Cross - Middlesbrough ones, which may have been combined to Kings Cross - Middlesbrough - Saltburn ones. Although I saw the train many times in the early 60s. I am afraid my memory draws a blank as to what the coach boards were. Any help would be very appreciated.

I have a Kings Cross-Saltburn set of boards on the last carriage of one of my Newcastle expresses Geoff, attached/detached at Darlington. 

 

The carriage destination boards I use are produced by Ian Wilson, and he does a set for the 'Tees-Thames', which include the Kings Cross-Saltburn boards, as well as 'The Tees-Thames'.

 

He can be contacted on 07899 740119. Email: ian@pacificstudio.co.uk 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

After all, we don't see many, if any, items being marketed as "DCC only" (go on, you lot, prove me wrong on that!).

 

Peco produced an N gauge gwr collet 0-6-0 thingy that was 'DCC only' at a time when other manufacturers were getting into 'DCC ready' (DC models pre-fitted with a socket to plug a DCC chip into). Although it was a good model it didn't sell particularly well (something to do with the tender as well as no good for DC) and they withdrew it from the market saying they would never produce another RTR N gauge loco. Union Mills have since also produced an N gauge DC gwr collet 0-6-0 thingy (which, although not a bad model, is not in the same finesse league) so probably the Peco version is no great loss.

 

 

 

 

Edited by grahame
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11 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Peco produced an N gauge gwr collet 0-6-0 thingy that was 'DCC only' at a time when other manufacturers were getting into 'DCC ready' (DC models pre-fitted with a socket to plug a DCC chip into). Although it was a good model it didn't sell particularly well (something to do with the tender as well as no good for DC) and they withdrew it from the market saying they would never produce another RTR N gauge loco. Union Mills have since also produced an N gauge DC gwr collet 0-6-0 thingy (which, although not a bad model, is not in the same finesse league) so probably the Peco version is no great loss.

 

 

 

 

Good evening Grahame,

 

Though it's only supposition on my part, it would appear that several N Gauge small tender locos have a larger than life-sized (scale) tender body in order to accommodate a decent-sized motor.

 

The Union Mills' Q1/Q2 I showed some pages ago fits into that category. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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6 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Though it's only supposition on my part, it would appear that several N Gauge small tender locos have a larger than life-sized (scale) tender body in order to accommodate a decent-sized motor.

 

 

I don't think it was over-scale but the model tender was of a larger capacity type and apparently an uncommon pairing with the loco. I seem to recall some pics of it with that particular tender were published, but it was a very rare combination. But then I know little about steam locos and tenders and even less about gwr. 

 

Incidentally, I think that all the recent and future steam locos from Farish are due to have the motor located in the loco rather than the tender - probably due to the newer smaller coreless ones now available. I don't know about Dapol. Union Mills is a different matter and have motorised tenders. I wonder about the size of the one with their gwr collet 0-6-0.

 

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6 hours ago, gr.king said:

The professional worriers and self-appointed electronics police will no doubt be greatly disturbed to hear of the continued use of original H & M controllers, on account of the risk (real or alleged) of damage to sensitive modern motors and the potential for fire or electrocution if the controller develops an internal fault due to deterioration with age.

I'm still happy with the H & M units I have, albeit relegated to loco testing and reserve duties now.

Back in the 80s I worked for a short time for Guagemaster/Engine Shed. We use to buy in second hand model railway items but not controllers. The boss when questioned why not, would simply answer would you buy a secondhand 1960s electric fire?

 

By all means continue to use your existing older controller if you feel it is safe, but please don't buy a secondhand one. 

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6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

It was Chas,

 

From what I can tell, Donny Plant used to release locos after shopping to Carr Loco (36A). Now, despite it's 'A' status, Doncaster shed had little top link work compared with , say, Top Shed, Grantham or Copley Hill. It did have several Pacifics on its books, but often one would act as pilot/standby at Doncaster Station in case of failure. 

 

What it would do is run-in freshly-shopped locos, either light engine as far as the Barkston triangle (just north of Grantham) where they could be turned and returned. Or, the gleaming locos would be allocated menial tasks such as pick-ups or local duties. It was only after they'd been run-in without problems that they'd be returned to their home sheds, often a great distance away. The final job was often a secondary express or fast freight job, giving southerners the great sight of a rare loco (say from Carlisle Canal or Haymarket) running along their patch. 

 

44198037_A460022Barkston24_05_61.jpg.0947785151d6bfe7509244f1c3d8d48d.jpg

 

Though I've probably shown this picture before (but scores of pages back!), it features no less than MALLARD about to be turned on the Barkston triangle after being shopped. Carr Loco must have been among the first depots to use a high-vis lamp. 

 

1073455445_A260536Grantham21_05_60.jpg.7dc58b31ebf35d8070deddc76b9f33c3.jpg

 

TRIMBUSH from far-away Edinburgh (Haymarket) heads a northbound (very much) secondary 'express' at Grantham in 1960. It's in reverse, so might just be coupling up to the rake. I imagine the service is a Grantham-Doncaster all stations stopper. 

 

1458420333_605280nrunning-inturn.jpg.3f8cbc42ab5f95fbdc32a50295d249fa.jpg

 

I even indulge in running-in 'unlikely' locos on Little Bytham. Ex-works TUDOR MINSTREL (DJH/Wright/Rathbone) from as far away as Dundee leaves Little Bytham on a Peterborough-Grantham 'parly'. 

 

Brand new locos would also have been run-in on menial duties. I have a picture of a brand new Doncaster-built 76XXX 2-6-0 shunting at Corby Glen.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony - I am absolutely delighted to learn this!

It means I can run pretty much any of my un-weathered locos on a goods pick-up or a secondary passenger service without feeling that I'm being as grossly unprototypical as I usually do!

I like running big locos as much as anyone but lack the layout size for full-length express rakes, so I have always run them with short rakes, but kept the curtains closed, of course: now, I shall proudly send a Pacific off with a suburban two coach set or half a dozen wagons, but with the curtains wide open and the light on - happy days! And that's before I get to the larger loco kits in the future build pile... :D

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8 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Back in the 80s I worked for a short time for Guagemaster/Engine Shed. We use to buy in second hand model railway items but not controllers. The boss when questioned why not, would simply answer would you buy a secondhand 1960s electric fire?

 

By all means continue to use your existing older controller if you feel it is safe, but please don't buy a secondhand one. 

Ironically Clive, the opposite is probably safer.  The old controller with deteriorating insulation that you've continued to use for years without a thought, you never know the risk until the day it zaps you or burns down half your house.  The one you buy 2nd hand (from a reputable dealer), should have had a PAT certificate supplied confirming it's been checked by a qualified professional.

Your former GM/ES boss probably took a sensible commercial view that the small market in 2nd hand controllers wouldn't recover the costs of testing.  If the options are to buy a new controller for £30, an unknown one for £10 or a guaranteed 2nd hand one for £20, I suspect very few people won't either go as cheap as they can or spend the extra and buy new for piece of mind (like tha many who would never buy a 2nd hand loco).

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16 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Tony - I am absolutely delighted to learn this!

It means I can run pretty much any of my un-weathered locos on a goods pick-up or a secondary passenger service without feeling that I'm being as grossly unprototypical as I usually do!

I like running big locos as much as anyone but lack the layout size for full-length express rakes, so I have always run them with short rakes, but kept the curtains closed, of course: now, I shall proudly send a Pacific off with a suburban two coach set or half a dozen wagons, but with the curtains wide open and the light on - happy days! And that's before I get to the larger loco kits in the future build pile... :D

I'm delighted you're delighted, Chas,

 

One popular running-in job from 36A was a Doncaster-Leeds 'parly' return. So, one would see a gleaming Pacific on no more than four/five carriages.

 

All the works had running-in turns. There used to be a five o'clock arrival from Crewe at Chester every weekday; just an all-stations stopper made-up of a few old carriages. One day we saw a gleaming 'Semi' on it! 46223 from Polmadie. What a cop! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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7 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

As a die hard DC modeller who enjoys wiring layouts I like these DC vs DCC discussions. before I get to why I am a Dc modeller not a DCC one here is something to think about.

 

On the real railway the signalman/woman checks the line is clear, sets the route and then shows the driver it is OK to proceed by changing the signal to go. The driver then releases brakes and pulls on some sort of handle and off the train goes. 

 

On a DC powered trainset the operator (or in some cases the signalman/woman) checks the line is clear, sets the route and might have to switch the power sections on, if the layout has working signals sets them to go. Then normally the same person (sometimes a driver) twist a knob or slides a slidey thing and off goes the train.

 

On a DCC powered model railway the operator (or in some cases the signalman/woman) checks the line is clear, sets the route, if the layout has working signals sets them to go. Normally the same person (sometimes a driver) presses some buttons, depending on the set up all sorts of noises, flashing lights and some cases the brakes come off, then the operator twist a knob or slides a slidey thing and off goes the train.

 

Neither are that much different to how a real railway operates. So why am I so deeply routed in DC. It is cheaper to achieve the same thing as I want to do. My opinion. 

Clive,

 

I tend to agree with you. For me the decision between the two is not about complexity of wiring (although DCC helps a little,  it’s pretty second order if you’re going to wire the layout properly). Neither is it about more realistic operation. ‘Controlling the train not the track’ may be slightly more realistic but it’s not a big deal compared with running at realistic speeds and with realistic acceleration which most people don’t seem to do on either system! 
 

For me the thee clinchers are:

1. Sound. I agree with Graeme about the din from lots of locos idling at the same time, but the joy of shunting with one loco and having realistic thrash and brake sounds (amongst others) really makes a difference.

2. Momentum/ braking. I know this is/ was available on DC but I find the DCC version much better to use and again it adds to the sense of driving the engine.

3. Stayalive. This dramatically improves running on some locos. I know ‘sir’ will say that I should sort out the root cause of the problems - pick ups or dodgy track. He’s right of course, but back in the real world for mere mortals like myself, sticking a capacitor in is a lot easier.

 

Against that is the heavy price tag which comes with DCC. I wouldn’t recommend anyone with a large stud of locos, particularly kit built ones, changing over. But if starting from scratch I think it makes sense.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm delighted you're delighted, Chas,

 

One popular running-in job from 36A was a Doncaster-Leeds 'parly' return. So, one would see a gleaming Pacific on no more than four/five carriages.

 

All the works had running-in turns. There used to be a five o'clock arrival from Crewe at Chester every weekday; just an all-stations stopper made-up of a few old carriages. One day we saw a gleaming 'Semi' on it! 46223 from Polmadie. What a cop! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Darlington had running in turns to Newcastle. Those were the only Sandringhams that I ever saw in Central station.

 

ArthurK

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12 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Tony - I am absolutely delighted to learn this!

It means I can run pretty much any of my un-weathered locos on a goods pick-up or a secondary passenger service without feeling that I'm being as grossly unprototypical as I usually do!

I like running big locos as much as anyone but lack the layout size for full-length express rakes, so I have always run them with short rakes, but kept the curtains closed, of course: now, I shall proudly send a Pacific off with a suburban two coach set or half a dozen wagons, but with the curtains wide open and the light on - happy days! And that's before I get to the larger loco kits in the future build pile... :D

or you could build a model of the Waverley Route where LNER Pacifics routinely hauled 4/5/6 coach trains - but were from St Margaret’s shed and so routinely dirty

image.jpg

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Another plea for help, please...................

 

48477.jpg.c90b81a59506976b32bf00dae855ff3e.jpg

 

The note on this (admittedly poor) scan states '48477, Hatton 1966'. 

 

I assume it's the Hatton on the ex-GWR main line in Warwickshire, where there was a bank.

 

My questions are................ Is it an Up or Down fully-fitted freight (the provision of the relief road might help)?

And, are the second, third, fourth and fifth vans BR 'Vanwides'? 

 

If this were the southern section of the ECML I'd probably identify it with ease; but it's not. 

 

All help greatly appreciated from those who know the area........................

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Another plea for help, please...................

 

The note on this (admittedly poor) scan states '48477, Hatton 1966'. 

 

I assume it's the Hatton on the ex-GWR main line in Warwickshire, where there was a bank.

 

 

Well known spot that, Tony. This picture might help:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhb1473.htm

 

You can just see the same ballast box in the bottom edge of your print. The line is climbing towards Birmingham so, unless there's a weird transposition of up/down in that area, then that would make it a down train. View taken from a well-known over-bridge at that spot

 

I'll let others who really know that patch comment further if necessary but I think I'm familiar enough with it to at least confirm the location.

 

Edited by LNER4479
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45 minutes ago, coronach said:

or you could build a model of the Waverley Route where LNER Pacifics routinely hauled 4/5/6 coach trains - but were from St Margaret’s shed and so routinely dirty

image.jpg

A much-missed line indeed, of which (fortunately) there have been many models made. 

 

Some time ago, I wrote a little piece in BRILL regarding the quartet of Canal A3s, stating that they were the rarest of their type on the ECML, especially in the south. An old friend who lived in Hatfield in his trainspotting years showed me his Combined Volume of 1959, and (apart from CICERO) the only A3 gaps were the four from Carlisle Canal. After the publication of my article, I was amused a couple of months later to read a piece of correspondence in BRILL's letters' pages asking what all the fuss was about. The writer lived in Hawick! 

 

I never did see any of them, though I did see a gleaming COLARADO at Doncaster one day. It was only as I underlined it in my Ian Allan Locoshed book later in the day that I realised how rare it was. 

 

346481662_HornbyA360093R3013.jpg.5c01bb95bf36a10bdad9dbe86aa5a24a.jpg

 

I assume you bought this model when it appeared? And, if so, I also assume you removed the AWS bang plate at the front? 

 

One could see dirty Pacifics passing through Little Bytham on short trains as well. Many of the out-and-back turns were uneven. That is to say, an 8P might be rostered to take a full-length express from Kings Cross as far as Grantham. But its return express duty was from Peterborough. Thus, rather than find a light engine path, it would take a 'parly' between Grantham and Peterborough. 

 

I've frequently been at odds in this regard with caption-writers when commenting on such a scene. 'What a come-down for an express loco' is frequently written, when it's anything but. It's just a normal operating procedure. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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20 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Perhaps:

If it has a DCC socket unplug the chip and plug in a blanking plug?  You may be able to find one in a DCC ready loco that doesn’t have a chip fitted.

Frank

Cheat!

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14 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Peco produced an N gauge gwr collet 0-6-0 thingy that was 'DCC only' at a time when other manufacturers were getting into 'DCC ready' (DC models pre-fitted with a socket to plug a DCC chip into). Although it was a good model it didn't sell particularly well (something to do with the tender as well as no good for DC) and they withdrew it from the market saying they would never produce another RTR N gauge loco. Union Mills have since also produced an N gauge DC gwr collet 0-6-0 thingy (which, although not a bad model, is not in the same finesse league) so probably the Peco version is no great loss.

 

 

 

 

Now you mention it, I remember that.

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