Wright writes.....

[jwealleans]

For anyone not familiar with Chapelon's work, this is as good a way to spend 10 minutes as anything and here is a still picture of the loco concerned.

 

Edit - and a shorter version with music by Wouter van Belle which I prefer.

Edited March 21, 2021 by jwealleans

[richard i]

What about usa designers. The Pennsylvanian k4 was some of the inspiration for Gresley’s a1 pacific. Others went over too for ideas. Robinson for example is one. The USA had locos of any size long before the uk got round to them.

richard 

[bbishop]

Another name for the list; Richard Wagner was the Chief of Design of the Deutsche Reichsbahn in Germany from its inception in 1922 to 1942.   Bill

[SD85]

6 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Please check your spelling for a start.

I would certainly describe the Q1 as the work of a genius.

Greatest power for the least weight.

Surely that is a great achievement in engineering terms?

Double chimneys and blast pipes, welded carriage underframes, the famous articulated sets. All Bulleid's work while under Gresley. 

But then I am biased having spent many hours at the Welding Institute where boring lectures were made interesting by seeing the name of Bulleid on a plaque on the wall.

Bernard

 

 

Agreed. The Pacifics had their issues (still great machines though) but the sheer effectiveness of the Q1 cannot be denied. Form over function taken to the ultimate conclusion and an absolute asset to the railways in the war and after.

 

It is also worth pointing out that Bulleid designed arguably the greatest and most effective boiler ever fitted to a British engine if not any engine in the world. You could run one of his Pacifics on coal dust, they were that good at raising steam. My favourite anecdote about this is when a MN was put on the Rugby test plant and two fireman were given an entire wagon of coal to use. They couldn't find the upper limit of the boiler's steam raising capacities.

 

Finally the turf burner locomotive designed for the CIE took the Leader concept and fixed the flaws. It worked rather well by all accounts, it just got overtaken by dieselisation.

Edited March 21, 2021 by SD85

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Another name for the list; Richard Wagner was the Chief of Design of the Deutsche Reichsbahn in Germany from its inception in 1922 to 1942.  

 

He and Stanier were on very good terms; Wagner's policy of a range of highly standardised two-cylinder locomotives was a great influence on Riddles. It was Wagner's team that produced the world's fastest steam locomotive. Neither of these facts has got much mention in British steam locomotive histories, for fairly obvious and understandable reasons, but I think (hope) that we're now at sufficient distance to be able to view things more objectively.

[Pebbles]

Not sure that Richard Wagner is anyone to make a song and dance about.

[bbishop]

Mr Pebbles, please collect your hat and coat on the way out.  Bill

[bbishop]

2 hours ago, SD85 said:

 

Agreed. The Pacifics had their issues (still great machines though) but the sheer effectiveness of the Q1 cannot be denied. Form over function taken to the ultimate conclusion and an absolute asset to the railways in the war and after.

Except that with a pick up goods, they were limited to 29 vehicles which was less than a Drummond Black Motor or an Adams Jumbo.  The reason was, of course, their lousy brakes.   Which is one reason why I would exclude Bulleid from the genius list.  The other pertains to the Pacific's habit of self-immolation on Brockenhurst level crossing.  Bill

[Shaw_Thing_M8]

1 hour ago, Pebbles said:

Not sure that Richard Wagner is anyone to make a song and dance about.

 

I disagree respectfully

 

[LNER4479]

Not into your classical music then?

[Pebbles]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

Mr Pebbles, please collect your hat and coat on the way out.  Bill

As a Pebble I'll have to dash.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Shaw_Thing_M8 said:

 

I disagree respectfully

 

 

Quite so. Here's a song and dance routine. Matches the DR livery too:

 

 

 

[robmcg]

So many contenders for the name 'genius', but I was thinking only of C20th British CMEs.

 

When Chapelon, or the Pennsylvania K4 come into it, or even Webb, it does become complex, and I left Bulleid out because the SR Pacifics leaked and slipped and caught fire,  by which time he had moved on, and the full rebuild seemed the most practical thing after 1955..  I still like the SR Pacifics more than any other for purely subjective reasons, the 1966-67 high speeds were the last high speed steam services in the world so far as I know...     and I had reasonable camera aged 16 years, so I really 'felt' the nature of the era.

 

For me a test is that a designer stands head and shoulders above others in terms of ability on several fronts. 

 

I put a few of my pictures of Chapelon engines up some time ago somewhere on RMweb and several viewers were bemused by the number of pipes and the other ephemera on the exterior of the engines.

 

edited to remove irrelevant musings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by robmcg

[APOLLO]

George Stephenson. No contest.

 

Brit15

[Chas Levin]

9 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Hi Chas

I have not written this up anywhere. Basically I've followed most of the guidance provided in instructions from Dan Pinnock and from experience having built four of his 6 wheelers and a bogie Dia 189 BC previously. I didn't buy a triplet set but did start with 3 individual 6 wheelers - two Dia 281 BTs and Dia 156 C for the Dia 218T triplet shown above in the photos, which incidentally was Lincoln Set 3. Apart from using Frank Davies etches for the duckets, I also followed Steve Bank's advice and narrowed the chassis so the bodies overhang the chassis marginally rather than the opposite.

 

However, I have attached a range of photos taken either during or after construction showing relevant aspects such as Dan's articulation method. Hope these are of some interest? ...

 

Andrew

 

Thanks Andrew, the photos and notes are very much of interest. I have a couple of his 6 wheelers to build but I haven't looked through the instructions yet (they're not slated for a very immediate build), so I'll be interested if the notes include guidance on articulated construction too - hadn't occurred to me that they'd cover that. That's a very fine looking build when seen in the course of construction too: there's so much of interest that's hidden once vehicles are finished, so photos like these are always very interesting...

Very nice looking C12 by the way - which kit is it?

Edited March 21, 2021 by Chas Levin

[Tony Wright]

31 minutes ago, robmcg said:

So many contenders for the name 'genius', but I was thinking only of C20th British CMEs.

 

When Chapelon, or the Pennsylvania K4 come into it, or even Webb, it does become complex, and I left Bulleid out because the SR Pacifics leaked and slipped and caught fire,  by which time he had moved on, and the full rebuild seemed the most practical thing after 1955..  I still like the SR Pacifics more than any other for purely subjective reasons, the 1966-67 high speeds were the last high speed steam services in the world so far as I know...     and I had reasonable camera aged 16 years, so I really 'felt' the nature of the era.

 

For me a test is that a designer stands head and shoulders above others in terms of ability on several fronts. 

 

I put a few of my pictures of Chapelon engines up some time ago somewhere on RMweb and several were bemused by the number of pipes and other ephemera on the exterior of the engines, which raises the question,  which steam engine was the most beautiful in Britain.   I nominate the LMS Bathtub.     Ah,   no.   wait....

Good evening Rob,

 

Chapelon was never a CME, which is the criterion you were mentioning. 

 

Though I have no right to dictate how this thread travels (or unravels?), I wouldn't like your last question to result in a rather meaningless poll (and generate further meaningless polls). Beauty, as is said, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

All I'd say is that there have been many great men mentioned of late; some just happen to be greater than others. 

 

Above all else (I hope) this thread is about modelling; the personal creation of things (in whatever media). That said, the histories of the prototypes of which we make our models (or creations) are often of equal interest. All railway modellers are railway enthusiasts as well, though not all enthusiasts are modellers. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Tony Wright
to add something

[robmcg]

2 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Rob,

 

Chapelon was never a CME, which is the criterion you were mentioning. 

 

Though I have no right to dictate how this thread travels (or unravels?), I wouldn't like your last question to result in a rather meaningless poll (and generate further meaningless polls). Beauty, as is said, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

All I'd say is that there have been many great men mentioned of late; some just happen to be greater than others. 

 

Above all else (I hope) this thread is about modelling; the personal creation of things (in whatever media). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Yes, mea culpa.    I shall edit and withdraw the question.

[Tony Wright]

2 minutes ago, robmcg said:

 

Yes, mea culpa.    I shall edit and withdraw the question.

It's up to you, Rob,

 

As I say, I have no right to dictate what is posted on here.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Shaw_Thing_M8 said:

 

I disagree respectfully

 

What interesting locomotives.

 

What is (are) their origins, please? I presume Continental RTR? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Woodcock29]

34 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Very nice looking C12 by the way - which kit is it?

Chas the C12 is the Craftsman kit. I built my first one way back in about 1979! Then a second one for a friend about 2000 and then this one just over a year ago which was purchased second hand and had been started. I have fourth to build, a built one I was given which has now been dismantled for a full rebuild (as have also a Craftsman A5 and a Kingdom Kits Robinson L1) - it had been glued together.

 

In regard to the D&S triplet there was a series of 3 articles in Railway Modeller Jan- March 2007 by Chris Gwilliam on building a 7mm D&S triplet which was also of some use, particularly his photos on the D&S articulation. But beware there are some errors in his final product, particularly the way the roof lights have been positioned.

 

Also of great assistance was the GNRS series of ring bound books on the Howlden stock not the least of because of the enormous range of variations in these sets.

Andrew

Edited March 21, 2021 by Woodcock29
Added comment

[Chas Levin]

38 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

Chas the C12 is the Craftsman kit. I built my first one way back in about 1979! Then a second one for a friend about 2000 and then this one just over a year ago which was purchased second hand and had been started. I have fourth to build, a built one I was given which has now been dismantled for a full rebuild (as have also a Craftsman A5 and a Kingdom Kits Robinson L1) - it had been glued together.

 

In regard to the D&S triplet there was a series of 3 articles in Railway Modeller Jan- March 2007 by Chris Gwilliam on building a 7mm D&S triplet which was also of some use, particularly his photos on the D&S articulation. But beware there are some errors in his final product, particularly the way the roof lights have been positioned.

 

Also of great assistance was the GNRS series of ring bound books on the Howlden stock not the least of because of the enormous range of variations in these sets.

Andrew

Brilliant - thanks Andrew: have to search out the RM back numbers now...

 

And clearly you're something of a C12 fan!

Edited March 21, 2021 by Chas Levin

[robmcg]

12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

It's up to you, Rob,

 

As I say, I have no right to dictate what is posted on here.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I too am no great fan of long threads of 'favourites', or 'which is best', so it is no problem to remove my meandering thoughts.

 

I will take advantage of this excellent thread to show a computer-altered picture of a Hornby model... 60029 'Woodcock', which may at times have passed through Little Bytham at a fair speed.

 

 

No problems with Hornby green in this light.

 

 

May I take this opportunity to thank you Tony for your input into the detail of the new Hornby Thompson Pacifics, because whatever the shortcomings of the prototypes  all three of the examples I have received so far here in NZ have been excellent. Beautiful models. A great part of the ECML and the age of steam. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

14 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

Chas the C12 is the Craftsman kit. I built my first one way back in about 1979! Then a second one for a friend about 2000 and then this one just over a year ago which was purchased second hand and had been started. I have fourth to build, a built one I was given which has now been dismantled for a full rebuild (as have also a Craftsman A5 and a Kingdom Kits Robinson L1) - it had been glued together.

 

In regard to the D&S triplet there was a series of 3 articles in Railway Modeller Jan- March 2007 by Chris Gwilliam on building a 7mm D&S triplet which was also of some use, particularly his photos on the D&S articulation. But beware there are some errors in his final product, particularly the way the roof lights have been positioned.

Andrew

Good evening Andrew,

 

Do you have an opinion as to which is the better kit for a C12; the Craftsman one or the SE Finecast example? I ask the question because I've built both (more than one of each), and I have another Craftsman one to build for a friend.

 

Though seen (probably) before, I don't think the merits (or demerits) of the two have been mentioned.................

 

 

 

This is the Craftsman example I built for Ian Wilson. I painted it and Tom Foster weathered it beautifully. 

 

I'm sure there should be a step on one side of the bunker, and I'm not entirely sure about the chimney shape. 

 

 

 

This is a SE Finecast example. It was started by Ian (glued together - ugh!), and I dismantled it, rebuilt it and made the mechanism. Again, it's my painting and Tom's weathering. 

 

Just to be safe, SEF provide a step on both sides of the bunker! Which side should it be on? 

 

Both now see service on Ian Wilson's Edenham.....................

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I know; lamps, at both ends, are needed.

 

 

I also built a South Eastern Finecast C12 for Grantham, which Graham Nicholas painted (though I wish he'd glaze the spectacles).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, robmcg said:

 

I too am no great fan of long threads of 'favourites', or 'which is best', so it is no problem to remove my meandering thoughts.

 

I will take advantage of this excellent thread to show a computer-altered picture of a Hornby model... 60029 'Woodcock', which may at times have passed through Little Bytham at a fair speed.

 

 

No problems with Hornby green in this light.

 

 

May I take this opportunity to thank you Tony for your input into the detail of the new Hornby Thompson Pacifics, because whatever the shortcomings of the prototypes  all three of the examples I have received so far here in NZ have been excellent. Beautiful models. A great part of the ECML and the age of steam. 

 

 

Thanks Rob,

 

However, you probably overstate my input into Hornby's Thompson Pacifics. It was an excellent design team which should receive the praise.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Shaw_Thing_M8]

46 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

What interesting locomotives.

 

What is (are) their origins, please? I presume Continental RTR? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

The one on the left is a Roco Class 01 and on the right is a Fleischmann Class 03 (a lighter boiler version of the 01). I have plenty more from Germany between the wars, including some interesting streamlined locomotives, but these were to hand as I've recently converted them to DCC. Remarkable that they have the detail they do when the were released prior to DCC being the norm.

 

Cheers