Wright writes.....

[Jack P]

8 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

is there anything left to do RTR? Anything ex-SR or ex-GWR? 

 

Off the top of my head for the Southern the Q 0-6-0, K 2-6-0, U/U1 2-6-0's are some of the most prolific, they also seem to top Wishlist polls. Those aside there is still a fleet of other Ex-SECR/LSWR/LBSC and a few SR built types that could be produced.

 

In terms of availability there is a PDK Q kit, which I expect would be pretty good given their other offerings.

 

There is the SEF U/U1 kit but it leaves much to be desired. The DJH kit is discontinued and while better than the SEF kit, still isn't perfect. 

 

There are a few Ex-LBSC K 2-6-0 kits out there, (one of them being the K's Kit) but none are currently in production, and much like the other kits mentioned they could be better. Nothing insurmountable, but a fair bit of remedial work/scratch-building to get them up to an acceptable standard.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Jack P

[Tony Teague]

8 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Just think of our favourite types, particularly the RA9 stuff; only the A1/1 and the A2/1 to go. The other 'Big Four' big types are even more-represented by RTR than those of the ex-LNER. Other than PRINCESS ANNE for the LMR, is there anything left to do RTR? Anything ex-SR or ex-GWR? 

 

 

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

My question was related to RA9 motive power.

 

 

Tony

Whilst you were focussed on RA9 power, and Dunsignalling has already covered some of the larger SR types, it may be worth noting that once you get down to the lower power ratings, enrmous gaps still exist in SR 4mm RTR.

As you may recall, one of my aims is to have at least one model of every class that the SR had on its books at nationalisation; two years ago I counted 94 potential classes - excluding boiler and tender variations of which there were many - and of these only 23 were available RTR at that point, so around 25%.

Approximately a further 65% were covered by kits, some very obscure and no longer in production, leaving around 10% for which no known RTR model or kit has ever existed.

What this means is that there remains huge scope for RTR, albeit some classes are very obscure, and that there is plenty of room too, for kits to thrive.

It also means that my objective is going to be tough to achieve! - but I am getting there.....

Tony

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I'd have thought the LNER Garratt would be unlikely; very limited sphere of operation and rather costly to produce. Still, what do I know? Who'd have thought the likes of GT3 would ever be available RTR? Not to mention the 'Fell' and the 'Leader'! 

 

I've commented before Tony that this reflects two things: most railway enthusiasts are primarily interested in locomotives and the market growth in the last generation (the spotting of which, saved Hornby from fading into oblivion), has been in collecting locomotives and not building model railways, because more people have the money but not the time and space to build layouts.

 

The availability of quite obscure prototypes in RTR, has (combined with the two factors above) led to some quite "generic" layouts appearing in the magazines and at exhibitions.  These layouts are often of a station in a fictional, moderately-sized country town with a goods depot rather smaller than the loco depot, which is populated with some combination of Lion, Falcon, Kestrel and DELTIC (and/or RA9 steam locos) none of which are likely to have ever operated on such a secondary route and in some cases, were not actually in service at the same time.  

 

But it's their layout, not mine.

 

49 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

No LMS class 3P 2-6-2Ts both Fowler and Stanier? No Austin 7s ? No MR class 2F? 

 

No BR Class 3MT 2-6-0? No class 2 2-6-2T?

To be fair the Class 3 2-6-0 is a pretty obscure class of ten locos which only worked in one small part of the UK and like too many of the Standards, had a very short life.  Having said that, I have a very nice RTR model of "Duke of Gloucester".........

 

I agree about the "ordinary" big tank locos though, these were the backbone of the passenger network.

 

Rob

[Pebbles]

1 hour ago, sandra said:

Tony,

 

Thanks for your comments. I haven’t tried those three locomotives but I will test them and I’ll let you know what speed they will reach.
 

I have fitted the DJH motor and gearboxes to a few locomotives and the top speed does seem relatively low. “Archibald Sturrock” will only reach 60 mph light engine but strangely adding a train doesn’t make much difference. “Bronzino “ will only reach 67 mph. 
 

I’m going to fit one in the next Pacific I build and I’ll see how I get on. I did find the High Level gearbox with Mashima motor the most satisfactory combination and it’s a shame it’s no longer available.

 

Sandra

I have just checked on the DJH website and can't find gears or gearboxes.

[SD85]

The loco I'd really like to have RTR is a Z class, but it's a pretty niche loco with a small number built and a limited range of areas to use them in. Any model would have to replicate the prototype and be heavy and smooth running with finely controllable slow speeds too. I know there's the Golden Arrow resin body kit, but sitting that on a Hornby 8F chassis (as suggested by them) doesn't look right; firstly the valve gear is wrong and secondly the loco sits too high.

[Barry Ten]

10 minutes ago, Pebbles said:

I have just checked on the DJH website and can't find gears or gearboxes.

 

They're listed under "accessories":

 

https://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/motors-gearboxes-oo-ho-scale/

[Ben Alder]

https://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/motors-gearboxes-oo-ho-scale/

 

Its included in the accessories drop down list.

[Dunsignalling]

23 minutes ago, SD85 said:

The loco I'd really like to have RTR is a Z class, but it's a pretty niche loco with a small number built and a limited range of areas to use them in. Any model would have to replicate the prototype and be heavy and smooth running with finely controllable slow speeds too. I know there's the Golden Arrow resin body kit, but sitting that on a Hornby 8F chassis (as suggested by them) doesn't look right; firstly the valve gear is wrong and secondly the loco sits too high.

There is also the excellent DMR kit, nowadays available from Phoenix.

 

I have an old Millholme one, acquired already built (and very badly painted) some years ago, and rebuilt, minus its original motor which appeared more suited for use in slot-car racing. 

 

It now has a 16/26 Mashima, Branchlines 67:1 gearbox and flywheel, which may be excessive. I have to be careful with loads and driving technique - it is quite capable of mangling the coupling rods if started too enthusiastically with a heavy load! (Heavy in this case means 60-80 r-t-r wagons, totally academic anyway as none of the layouts I run it on have loops or sidings that can accommodate more than 45). It's been out of traffic since one of the cab steps went AWOL and I haven't yet got round to making a replacement.....

 

John

Edited April 5, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[SD85]

Yeah, I really like the look of the DMR kit, I'm some way off being able to kit build though.

[robmcg]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

It has traditionally been the case that, to attract r-t-r attention, the prototype needed to survive into BR ownership, and ideally long enough to carry either emblem.

 

On that basis, the Saint is perhaps a bit "borderline", with final withdrawal in 1953.

 

However, Hornby have done the Star, few of which lasted very much longer, so there is hope. Even more so now the Saint has been reincarnated at 12" to the foot scale, I'd think.

 

If anyone were to announce a model in OO, I'd bet tomorrow's breakfast that we'd quickly discover Hornby already have one on the go....

 

John

 

There is an answer for a Saint class, given their truly great design 1904-11 and withdrawal when worn out post-war...

 

photo-edit one! 

 

oops..   )

 

works for me though.

 

 

I think the number of variations and names mitigate against the class, as well as the lack of BR-era 'presence'.

 

A truly beautiful locomotive,  engineering art, as it were.  The above has a great name too.

 

edit; and how different to Gresley!   Or Thompson... although as Tony has mentioned, A2s had great names too.

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by robmcg
addition

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I've commented before Tony that this reflects two things: most railway enthusiasts are primarily interested in locomotives and the market growth in the last generation (the spotting of which, saved Hornby from fading into oblivion), has been in collecting locomotives and not building model railways, because more people have the money but not the time and space to build layouts.

 

The availability of quite obscure prototypes in RTR, has (combined with the two factors above) led to some quite "generic" layouts appearing in the magazines and at exhibitions.  These layouts are often of a station in a fictional, moderately-sized country town with a goods depot rather smaller than the loco depot, which is populated with some combination of Lion, Falcon, Kestrel and DELTIC (and/or RA9 steam locos) none of which are likely to have ever operated on such a secondary route and in some cases, were not actually in service at the same time.  

 

But it's their layout, not mine.

 

To be fair the Class 3 2-6-0 is a pretty obscure class of ten locos which only worked in one small part of the UK and like too many of the Standards, had a very short life.  Having said that, I have a very nice RTR model of "Duke of Gloucester".........

 

I agree about the "ordinary" big tank locos though, these were the backbone of the passenger network.

 

Rob

Hi Rob

 

20 locos 77000-19, ten allocated to the NER and ten to the ScR. Two of the NER locos moved to the LMR and then one of those two ended up sheded at Guildford. There were differences between the NER and ScR locos.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

To be fair the Class 3 2-6-0 is a pretty obscure class of ten locos which only worked in one small part of the UK and like too many of the Standards, had a very short life.  Having said that, I have a very nice RTR model of "Duke of Gloucester".........

 

I agree about the "ordinary" big tank locos though, these were the backbone of the passenger network.

 

Rob

 

Twenty with a new build planned. Possibly two as there are two projects. 77021 is the more advanced and more likely to succeed.

 

Worked in Scotland, North East, two at Northwich with one of those being transferred to the Southern.

 

Quite well distributed compared to many classes.

 

https://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=726002&type=S&page=alloc

 

 

Jason

[Pebbles]

9 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

They're listed under "accessories":

 

https://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/motors-gearboxes-oo-ho-scale/

Many thanks for that info. Quite frankly I find the quoted price quite staggering. 

[MarkC]

All this talk about RTR, and the NE region - it would be nice to see an A8 - indeed, it could share quite a bit of commonality with the B16/1.

 

However, as we all know, clearances between bogie wheels and cylinders are a challenge, even for 30" radius curves, so might be a problem too far for RTR?

 

Regarding the prototype 3MT Moguls - ISTR that 4MT 76077 was being considered as the basis for a new build 77xxx at one time, but will now be restored in its own right.

 

Mark

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

There is also the excellent DMR kit, nowadays available from Phoenix.

 

I have an old Millholme one, acquired already built (and very badly painted) some years ago, and rebuilt, minus its original motor which appeared more suited for use in slot-car racing. 

 

It now has a 16/26 Mashima, Branchlines 67:1 gearbox and flywheel, which may be excessive. I have to be careful with loads and driving technique - it is quite capable of mangling the coupling rods if started too enthusiastically with a heavy load! (Heavy in this case means 60-80 r-t-r wagons, totally academic anyway as none of the layouts I run it on have loops or sidings that can accommodate more than 45). It's been out of traffic since one of the cab steps went AWOL and I haven't yet got round to making a replacement.....

 

John

Good morning John,

 

As you say, the DMR 'Z' kit is excellent. I built one some little time ago for review, shortly after it was released. Images of it must be on my old computer, so I'll have to search later.

 

I can't remember who brought along this example.................

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Blue Max]

24 minutes ago, MarkC said:

All this talk about RTR, and the NE region - it would be nice to see an A8 - indeed, it could share quite a bit of commonality with the B16/1.

 

However, as we all know, clearances between bogie wheels and cylinders are a challenge, even for 30" radius curves, so might be a problem too far for RTR?

 

Regarding the prototype 3MT Moguls - ISTR that 4MT 76077 was being considered as the basis for a new build 77xxx at one time, but will now be restored in its own right.

 

Mark

I appreciate its a kit and not ready to run, but assume you are aware of the A8 being developed by 52F models

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning John,

 

As you say, the DMR 'Z' kit is excellent. I built one some little time ago for review, shortly after it was released. Images of it must be on my old computer, so I'll have to search later.

 

I can't remember who brought along this example.................

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

A word of warning for anybody contemplating building a Z, discovered when I rebuilt mine. 

 

Hopefully the DMR kit and the instructions therein have it right, but every published drawing I've seen shows the bunker step immediately below the top lamp-iron dead in the middle, whereas every photograph of the real thing shows the left-hand end of that step on the centre-line, i.e. the step is offset about a foot to the right.

 

As the error seems universal, I suspect it's like it on the works drawings too, (and possibly built that way on the first one) but that the offset was incorporated when it was realised that 6'6" firemen were in a minority!

 

The joys of "as drawn" vs. "as built" vs. "as modified in the light of operational reality"....

 

John

[Tony Wright]

42 minutes ago, Pebbles said:

Many thanks for that info. Quite frankly I find the quoted price quite staggering. 

It might appear 'staggering'; certainly when compared with what one gets RTR. 

 

However, it really depends on what one really wants with regards to a (kit-built) loco's running. To the point of being boring, that to me means super-smooth running, quiet and powerful performance, and ease of installation. 

 

I must admit to not having seen the motors mentioned which cost under a fiver, but Mashimas (those still available) seem to be about £25.00-£30.00. Gearboxes (kits) seem to be up to £20.00, so, say, up to a maximum of £50.00 for the bits to make a big prime mover (smaller ones will be less, of course). To make a prime mover which has all the qualities I insist upon.

 

I have no wish to labour the point, but I've lost count of the number of kit-built locos which have passed through my hands which run no better (and much louder) than lame dogs. Often, it's the prime mover which is at fault - noisy, stiff and badly-assembled. Linked with all the other poor features - dodgy pick-ups, tight rods and tight bearings, then the loco (often bought at great expense) is useless. Many of these have been 'professionally-built' - ask Gilbert Barnatt of Peterborough North if you want a second opinion. 

 

Now, not everyone can assemble a gearbox properly, and the question might well be asked; why try and build a loco if you can't assemble a gearbox? A good question. May I use the recent J50 as an answer, please? Despite it being his first loco-build, Gordon S managed to get the chassis running beautifully. The main reason for its being quiet, smooth and powerful is the DJH motor/gearbox. What price lovely performance there, then? Granted, he decided kit-building was not for him, but at least 90% of what's now seen is his work. He was 'almost there'. 

 

Were I to assemble a gearbox for a customer, all in (including the components) the price would be about that of the DJH motor/gearbox. Professional rates, though it would be extortion if I could assemble a gearbox in ten minutes! No, over an hour to ensure 'perfect' performance. 

 

In my experience, the DJH gearboxes are the equal of Portescaps, and they're quieter. Just last month I was given a Portescap (second-hand) to install in a loco and the price was £95.00. 

 

What's the saying? 'You pays your money and you takes your choice'?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[thegreenhowards]

11 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

It also means that my objective is going to be tough to achieve! - but I am getting there.....

Tony

Well there’s no point having an easy challenge is there!

[BMacdermott]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Many thanks Brian,

 

Interestingly, it would appear that every class on your list is, or has been, available as a kit. 

 

I'm surprised a J6 doesn't feature. 

 

Did the Thompson Pacifics ever appear on the wishlists? I know Simon Kohler was keen to do them because of their wonderful names (though HERRINGBONE?), especially those bestowed on the A2/2s. 

 

I'd have thought the LNER Garratt would be unlikely; very limited sphere of operation and rather costly to produce. Still, what do I know? Who'd have thought the likes of GT3 would ever be available RTR? Not to mention the 'Fell' and the 'Leader'! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Hello Tony and Clive

 

I was referring to just some of the 'bigger' locos that have polled well, alluding to Tony's earlier comment (viz): 

"The point I was trying to make was that, with regard to 'big steam stuff', just about every type is now available RTR in OO. And, big engines have always been the most popular, particularly for the likes of my trainspotting generation".

 

So, not all locos are listed...you'll have to refer to the published results over the years to get a full picture.

 

The J6 has always hovered around the higher echelons of the Middle Polling segment.

 

The Hush Hush has always been High Polling, and was the most-wanted LNER loco in 2018 and 2019, being in The Top 50 by then

 

The A2/3 was always slightly higher than the A2/2 and the A1/1 has always been very low.

 

Perhaps 'some context' might not go amiss here...

 

We listed about 800 items (including rolling stock). We calculated that we could have listed around 30,000 items and that wouldn't have included 'pioneering era' items such as Rocket etc. So, even if an item is Low in the Poll, it is still way up high in most pecking orders. 

 

Dennis Lovett (he of Bachmann fame) kept a list of all kits ever made. It was, I gather, going to be made available on what became 'the new MREmag' (online magazine) but that seems to be on hold at the moment.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Pebbles said:

Many thanks for that info. Quite frankly I find the quoted price quite staggering. 

Horses for courses.

It is possible to buy a turntable on which you can play records for far less than the cost of a small RTR locomotive. It is also possible to pay many hundreds of pounds for an example that appears at first to be very similar. The quality of the motor and gearbox takes up a heck of a chunk of that cost. While I am in general happy to use mass produced RTR locomotive mechanisms I am not prepared to accept a cheap drive in my audio equipment.

The cost might seem staggering to you but there are plenty of people who appreciate top quality products both in a model railway context and in other fields.

If Tony takes an hour to assemble and check a unit that costs around £50 for the parts then the DJH offer seems to me to be something of a bargain.

Bernard

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Twenty with a new build planned. Possibly two as there are two projects. 77021 is the more advanced and more likely to succeed.

 

Worked in Scotland, North East, two at Northwich with one of those being transferred to the Southern.

 

Quite well distributed compared to many classes.

 

https://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=726002&type=S&page=alloc

 

 

Jason

As I understand it, two came down to the Southern on a railtour, but 77014 failed and its buddy returned north alone, though presumably with assistance. 

 

Eastleigh repaired the engine with the intention of returning it but, in the meantime, a decision had been taken to withdraw the remaining members of the class at its home shed, and the SR was advised there was no point in arranging to do so. 

 

The repaired 77014 was put into the SR Standard 4 mogul roster and became quite a celebrity, working a good number of specials and (IIRC) lasting to the end of Southern steam in 1967. 

 

John

[Tony Wright]

With the recent talk about RTR locos and what's needed to 'accurately' portray a section of (prototype) line, I've been updating my Little Bytham stud list. It now comprises............

 

A4 11 (ten kit-built).

A3 11 (nine kit-built)

A1/1 1 (kit-built)

A1 17 (16 kit-built)

A2/2 3 (all kit-built)

A2/1 1 (kit-built)

A2/3 5 (all kit-built)

A2 5 (four kit-built)

V2 12 (all kit-built)

W1 1 (kit-built)

B1 10 (all kit-built or Comet chassis under RTR bodies)

B16 4 (all kit-built)

B12 4 (three kit-built)

B17 1 (kit-built)

K2 2 (both kit-built)

K3 5 (four kit-built)

K1 3 (all kit-built)

K5 1 (kit-/scratch-built)

D3 1 (kit-built)

D11 1 (kit-built)

D16/3 2 (one kit-built)

O1/O4 9 (eight kit-/scratch-built)

O2 7 (six kit-built)

J3 1 (kit-built)

J6 5 (all kit-built)

J11 2 (both kit-built)

J39 2 (both kit-built)

J17 1 (kit-built)

L1 2 (both kit-built)

A5 2 (both kit-built)

Britannia 3 (two kit-built)

Standard Five 1 (kit-built)

Standard Four 2-6-0 2 (both kit-built)

Austerity 2-8-0 3 (all kit-built)

9F 5 (four kit-built)

2P 2 (one kit-built, one RTR body on Comet frames)

Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 3 (one scratch-built)

3F 1 (kit-built)

4F 9 (four kit-built, three RTR bodies on SEF frames)

Ivatt 2MT 1 (modified RTR body/scratch-built)

8F 1 (kit-built) 

 

This includes locos running on the MR/M&GNR section as well, but not the 'funny' types I run of SR and LMR origin, nor the scratch-built K4.

 

The diesel types are not listed either. 

 

As can be seen, most have been kit-built, but looking through my list, most could be represented now by RTR; such has the availability burgeoned in recent times. The non-kit-built locos are extensively altered/modified/renumbered/renamed/weathered RTR items. 

 

Were I starting the likes of LB now at the age when I started building all those locos, would I still have made them all? A good question, though rather academic. Most have been (or were) built out of necessity - dodgy RTR at the time, lack of range and so on. No, I'd not have it any other way.

 

I should point out that eight of the kit-built locos in my list were made by others, and that the likes of the Graeme King bodies/adaptations are classed as kit-built.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Tony Wright
to add something

[bbishop]

3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Tony and everyone

 

Here are some 'yet-to-be done' locos which have been high in The 00 Wishlist Poll over the years...

 

LMS

Turbomotive (which you mentioned)

Big Bertha

Caprotti Black 5

 

SR

The SR doesn't have a vast range of 'big locos' yet-to-be-done, but the following have been popular...

U and U1 2-6-0

Q 0-6-0

Z 0-8-0T

K 2-6-0

H15 4-6-0

W 2-6-4T

D1, E1 and L1 4-4-0

C2X 0-6-0

 

LNER

U1 Beyer-Garratt 

B16/1, B16/2 and B16/3

B2 (although this one is always in the Low Polling segment!)

 

BR

WD 2-10-0

Standard Class 5 Caprotti

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

A wee giggle about the H15 class because  there was a total of 26 locomotives in four distinct sub classes requiring three different chassis.

 

How about the D15 class, the big Drummond 4-6-0s?

 

Bill

[BMacdermott]

34 minutes ago, bbishop said:

A wee giggle about the H15 class because  there was a total of 26 locomotives in four distinct sub classes requiring three different chassis.

 

How about the D15 class, the big Drummond 4-6-0s?

 

Bill

Hello Bill

 

Below is how we listed the H15s in The Poll (with appropriate notes in the accompanying Guide):

 

4-6-0 LSWR H15 Rebuilt Drummond (30330-30335)

4-6-0 SR H15 Maunsell (30473-30478, 30521-30524)

4-6-0 LSWR H15 Urie (30482-30491)

 

The LSWR D15 was consistently around the middle point of the Low Polling segment.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)