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Given Thompson's apparent and laudable objectives to improve availability and maintainability, I find his choice of the inside cylindered J11 as a standard goods loco to be curious.  His rebuilding of a D49 with two inside cylinders appears more so and the experiment was not multiplied.  Apparently, he also earlier tried to persuade Gresley to rebuild the ex North Eastern pacifics (class A2) with two inside cylinders.

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23 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

It used to be said that a consultant was a man who borrowed your watch to tell you the time.

And then offered to sell it back to you when you needed a system to keep time!

 

In my years of paid employment I found the best way to get your ideas accepted was to persuade management they had thought of it themselves.

 

John

 

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13 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Rob,

 

Apart from a book on ET by Peter Grafton, I've never read a book where Thompson's work is mentioned which isn't hyper-critical, particularly where his Pacifics are concerned.

 

I've just about finished reading the latest book, and it's probably a fairer reflection of the man and his work than many which have appeared. That said, I can find no mention of the near-rebellion in Scotland when the P2s were rebuilt (these were professional railwaymen). And, there's always that sneaking suspicion about his Pacifics with regard to how they were employed by BR. On their building, particularly the A2/3s, they took over many of the top jobs on the ECML because, immediately post-War, the older Pacifics were virtually worn out. Yet, immediately on the introduction of the Peppercorn Pacifics, they were moved away from the likes of Top Shed, never to return. Apart from the four at Haymarket (three A2/1s and one A2/3), they were rarely employed on the prestigious workings. Granted, they were more mixed traffic, with their 6' 2" drivers, but they were always 'second-string'. 

 

As it happened (and I've just been reading a piece by Gerry Fiennes, written about his time when he was traffic manager of the ECML in the late-'50s/-early'60s), where he relates how the final fling of steam power on the route represented its 'finest hour'. The irony being it was achieved, in the main, with Gresley Pacifics, all rejuvenated with double chimneys, the V2s (particularly at peak times) and the A1s. Apart from the last-mentioned (and Peter Townend considers 60156 the finest loco ever on his books), all classes designed before Thompson took office. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

The wartime circumstances of 1942 when Thompson was finding his feet were that a reliable standard design had merit.

 

The A2s may have been a lot better if developed so that they didn't leak steam, or break frames, and had retained some of the Gresley features like wedge cab fronts, even without armoured glass spectacles.

 

But steam crews, shedmasters and engineers had their say.  ET had a very difficult job and I will enjoy reading the new book, I suspect it will do little to change my current view of ET as lacking some 'people skills'. His attempt to ingratiate himself with O S Nock says a lot....  and it failed.

 

Great piece of history though.

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2 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

His view was that, typically, management consultants get about 70% of their ideas and solutions by talking to a Company's own staff.  They already know most of the problems, and they already have a pretty good idea of how they ought to be fixed - the problem is, the Company's own management won't ask, won't listen; and if they do, won't believe what they're told by their own people.  Whereas a management consultant - especially if they come from a 'big name' accountancy firm charging a very fat fee indeed - is seen as independent and authoritative.

In my experience I'd say that was spot-on.    I would also add that a good chunk of that 70% was stating the blindingly obvious (we always used to be reminded of the story about the King's New Clothes   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HykF5KX4STA )

 

I also noticed (after the fifth or sixth initiative) they would never come in and tell a company exactly how to do what ever they were saying but would make suggestions and provide ideas on how it might be done.  Then, in  a year or so's time after the plan had been implemented  and almost inevitably failed, they could not be blamed as it was clearly the implementation that failed not the principle.  I feared for my children's education when I heard a member of the cabinet spouting the same nonsense advice on the radio concerning how the Government of the day was going to over-haul the education system.    I should by rights have been the Head of the Cynicism Department but  ironically, as I expected, my promotion seemed to get lost in the post.     

 

Anyway, railway modelling is far a more productive and rewarding activity .....  

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23 minutes ago, PupCam said:

In my experience I'd say that was spot-on.    I would also add that a good chunk of that 70% was stating the blindingly obvious (we always used to be reminded of the story about the King's New Clothes   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HykF5KX4STA )

 

I also noticed (after the fifth or sixth initiative) they would never come in and tell a company exactly how to do what ever they were saying but would make suggestions and provide ideas on how it might be done.  Then, in  a year or so's time after the plan had been implemented  and almost inevitably failed, they could not be blamed as it was clearly the implementation that failed not the principle.  I feared for my children's education when I heard a member of the cabinet spouting the same nonsense advice on the radio concerning how the Government of the day was going to over-haul the education system.    I should by rights have been the Head of the Cynicism Department but  ironically, as I expected, my promotion seemed to get lost in the post.     

 

Anyway, railway modelling is far a more productive and rewarding activity .....  

Lest it be said that I'm just another cynic, I did do some worthwhile work as a consultant to the MoD, but I had colleagues who did a lot more.  The 80/20 principle should be applied to consultants and their work; 80% of the useful work is done in 20% of the time and by 20% of the consultants.  Ironically, most consultants will agree that there are a lot of ineffective consultants, but are all utterly convinced that they themselves are one of the 20%.  

 

External consultants need to be managed, just like any other supplier; you must remember that their #1 priority is to sell their time and while they might actually be able to deliver what you want in 1 day/week but they want to sell you 5 days/week.  They will get their fingers into your organisation such as to make themselves indispensable, if you let them.  What companies (but more so, government departments) need to learn is:

(1) find out what the consultancy has done for other departments and make sure you don't end up being sold it again, you've already paid for it;

(2) don't accept any contract variation or discuss any extension until they've completed the first contract.  Then on the final day, remove their company passes and escort them from the building.  Only then should they be allowed to start tendering for new contracts.

 

Apologies Tony, one throw-away comment and your thread has gone off on a real tangent, a long way from model trains! @The Fatadder's Star is lovely, unrecognisable from the source material.

 

Rob

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10 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

It used to be said that a consultant was a man who borrowed your watch to tell you the time.

The top consultants would first ask what time you would like it to be.

 

Joking apart, a lot of organisations know exactly what they want and need to do but unless an independent party (= consultant) says so it can be almost impossible to sell to their Board/Shareholders/Bankers, etc.

 

I'm not saying that's a good thing, just how life often is in my experience (in consulting).

 

It's also good to use consultants to lop workload peaks that are outside the realm of business as usual.

 

Sales pitch over.

Edited by St Enodoc
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9 hours ago, Theakerr said:

I have a few questions (not all railway related)  that have persisted despite attempts to find answers using the normal channels.  One is why the preference for inside cylinder 0-6-0s?  From a maintanance perspective an outside cylinder should be much easier to service.  I did come across a suggestion that the early wheel bearing quality was such that an outside cylinder would have caused excess wear (due presumably side or twist trust motion) on the bearings and that an inside cylinder arrangement would put a more even load on the bearings. Just curious. 

 

It was probably a trade-off between manufacturing cost and maintenance cost. A two cylinder casting between the frames is less expensive and it automatically adds a lot of rigidity and, as you say, puts a lot less oscillating torque on the frames.

 

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10 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Given Thompson's apparent and laudable objectives to improve availability and maintainability, I find his choice of the inside cylindered J11 as a standard goods loco to be curious.  His rebuilding of a D49 with two inside cylinders appears more so and the experiment was not multiplied.  Apparently, he also earlier tried to persuade Gresley to rebuild the ex North Eastern pacifics (class A2) with two inside cylinders.

I suppose, because the ex-GC 'Pom-pom' was such a sound engine, by improving it with better valves he was producing an even better one, though it's odd that the J39 (which was also a very good engine, and newer) was not selected. 

 

Most of Thompson's rebuilds ended up no better (or even worse) than those locos they were rebuilt from. The P2-A2/2 debate will go on forever, probably; the A2/1s were certainly no better than the V2s they were derived from (not actual rebuilds) and inferior to a double Kylchap V2; the A1/1 was definitely inferior to a double chimney A3 (which GREAT NORTHERN would have become, anyway); the B2s? Hardly; the K5? Remaining a one-off says it all. He couldn't really go wrong with a starting point such as the ex-GC 2-8-0s, and the O1s were excellent locos, though the originals outlived them. Gresley had already shown the way to improve the B16s. The rest? Hardly a success story. Of course, the B1 was new-build, and excellent. Thompson's only design memorial? Probably. 

 

Having now finished reading the latest book on ET, I doubt if it answers any more questions than before. It is a more 'sensitive' assessment of Thompson's life and career, but I doubt if it'll change many opinions. Given the wartime circumstances, it was laudable to try and reduce maintenance costs and improve reliability. The problem is, he really did neither. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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We had consultants come in and insisted on giving feedback to the management in front of the whole staff. “So everyone was on the same page”  we grumbled about being made to go to the meeting beforehand. Was one of the best 2 1/2 hours of my life. It was great to watch. 
richard 

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53 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

That said, I rejoice in being a cynic. On one occasion, a new teacher (who'd arrived in as a head of department) spoke at one staff meeting about how he was changing his department to become much more inclusive with others. He used a lot of words I wasn't familiar with and phrases such as 'at this point in time' (I assume he meant 'now'), 'at the end of the day' (I'm not sure if that meant the end of the school day or the actual day') and 'we'll generate more light than heat' (I'm still puzzled by that one). He spoke well, and a few other heads of department were seduced (not including cynical old me).

 

Ever played 'buzzword bingo' in such situations, Tony? A group of cynics get together bingo cards with all the stupid phrases on them ('low hanging fruit' is one of my favourites). First one to hear the expert / advisor / consultant (I have a less-polite phrase involving a male bovine creature going about its business) say them all wins!

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Then can be useful.

 

We are having some help working on a new system. I will not be a major part of the new system as I need to work on the current one, and I am in late 50s.

 

But online meeting after online meeting completely breaking down how own current system works.

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Most of Thompson's rebuilds ended up no better (or even worse) than those locos they were rebuilt from. The P2-A2/2 debate will go on forever, probably; the A2/1s were certainly no better than the V2s they were derived from (not actual rebuilds) and inferior to a double Kylchap V2; the A1/1 was definitely inferior to a double chimney A3 (which GREAT NORTHERN would have become, anyway); the B2s? Hardly; the K5? Remaining a one-off says it all. He couldn't really go wrong with a starting point such as the ex-GC 2-8-0s, and the O1s were excellent locos, though the originals outlived them. Gresley had already shown the way to improve the B16s. The rest? Hardly a success story. Of course, the B1 was new-build, and excellent. Thompson's only design memorial? Probably. 

 

Having now finished reading the latest book on ET, I doubt if it answers any more questions than before. It is a more 'sensitive' assessment of Thompson's life and career, but I doubt if it'll change many opinions. Given the wartime circumstances, it was laudable to try and reduce maintenance costs and improve reliability. The problem is, he really did neither. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I think that's at the 'harsh' end of a summary of ET, Tony. Unusually, therefore, I find myself ever so slightly defending said gentleman.

 

We all know the context of extreme wartime conditions influencing ET's work - if you were a cynic you might say that he used that as an opportunity? Quite apart from the very obvious situation of bombs raining down, one significant influence (according to accounts I have read) was that the conjugated valve gear on the 3-cylinder engines did NOT take kindly to lack the inevitable lack of maintenance in wartime conditions. Despite ostensibly being covered, in practice the surrounding mixture of steam, oil and ash (from smokebox cleaning) got in and formed a very effective grinding paste leading to rapid wear of the key joints. Without effective cleaning to keep it at bay, this soon led to the five-beats-to-the-bar effect and eventual damage that ET was so keen to show Nock during his 'charm offensive' visit.

 

I also know, from studying the working practices at Grantham, that en masse loco changing was reintroduced there after the war time simply to keep some semblance of a service running, such was the dire mechanical state of the Gresley pacifics at that time. (I presume in war time as well, although train service patterns bear little comparison). By contrast, pre-1939, loco changes were actually relatively infrequent (we depict too many on the layout!), as the nearly-new A4's and latter new-built A3s were so good that they could be entrusted to 400 mile/day diagrams, eliminating many time-honoured loco changes at that time.

 

This led, inter alia, to the bizarre situation of brand new Peppercorn A1s being allocated to Grantham on very undemanding diagrams. Only when the backlog of wartime maintenance and repairs had been caught up with and the Gresley class 8s were in better condition could these relatively inefficient ways of workings being eradicated and some meaningful accelerations put in place (c.1956).

 

Finally - in terms of what I've read - it's often stated that the fitment of the Kylchap exhausts revolutionised the A3/A4s in the late 1950 leading to their glorious 'Indian summer' (that you remember so well) and in that there can be little doubt. However, I have read that it was the adoption of Swindon practices at Doncaster to attain more precise valve settings (a Mr Cook?) that also made a significant impact in the reliability and efficiency of the conjugated valve gear and this also contributed to the improved overall performance of the Gresley machines.

 

I'm happy to be put right on any of that, but taken together it seems to me that ET's intense dislike of the conjugated valve gear does at least have some basis in sound fact and clearly influenced his thinking in terms of his (re-)designs that were intended to eliminate it. As always, a certain amount of balance is required in any summation of somebody's work.

Edited by LNER4479
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19 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I have read that it was the adoption of Swindon practices at Doncaster to attain more precise valve settings (a Mr Cook?) that also made a significant impact in the reliability and efficiency of the conjugated valve gear and this also contributed to the improved overall performance of the Gresley machines.

 

I've read that - and then I later read an account by someone who was involved in the overhauling of locomotives at Doncaster that they set up a pacific using this new optical alignment equipment, then took it outside, parked it on a curve and found that the frames had deflected further than the official scrapping tolerance.   I'm not suggesting it did any harm, but it may not have been quite the revolution some have implied.

 

Incidentally I think you may be conflating two episodes of Doncaster learning from Swindon practice; Mr Cook changed the way the frames and cylinders were set up to be assembled; the lesson on valve events was during the 1925 exchange when (allegedly) the valves of the Castle locomotive were taken apart and examined overnight.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I think that's at the 'harsh' end of a summary of ET, Tony. Unusually, therefore, I find myself ever so slightly defending said gentleman.

 

We all know the context of extreme wartime conditions influencing ET's work - if you were a cynic you might say that he used that as an opportunity? Quite apart from the very obvious situation of bombs raining down, one significant influence (according to accounts I have read) was that the conjugated valve gear on the 3-cylinder engines did NOT take kindly to lack the inevitable lack of maintenance in wartime conditions. Despite ostensibly being covered, in practice the surrounding mixture of steam, oil and ash (from smokebox cleaning) got in and formed a very effective grinding paste leading to rapid wear of the key joints. Without effective cleaning to keep it at bay, this soon led to the five-beats-to-the-bar effect and eventual damage that ET was so keen to show Nock during his 'charm offensive' visit.

 

I also know, from studying the working practices at Grantham, that en masse loco changing was reintroduced there after the war time simply to keep some semblance of a service running, such was the dire mechanical state of the Gresley pacifics at that time. (I presume in war time as well, although train service patterns bear little comparison). By contrast, pre-1939, loco changes were actually relatively infrequent (we depict too many on the layout!), as the nearly-new A4's and latter new-built A3s were so good that they could be entrusted to 400 mile/day diagrams, eliminating many time-honoured loco changes at that time.

 

This led, inter alia, to the bizarre situation of brand new Peppercorn A1s being allocated to Grantham on very undemanding diagrams. Only when the backlog of wartime maintenance and repairs had been caught up with and the Gresley class 8s were in better condition could these relatively inefficient ways of workings being eradicated and some meaningful accelerations put in place (c.1956).

 

Finally - in terms of what I've read - it's often stated that the fitment of the Kylchap exhausts revolutionised the A3/A4s in the late 1950 leading to their glorious 'Indian summer' (that you remember so well) and in that there can be little doubt. However, I have read that it was the adoption of Swindon practices at Doncaster to attain more precise valve settings (a Mr Cook?) that also made a significant impact in the reliability and efficiency of the conjugated valve gear and this also contributed to the improved overall performance of the Gresley machines.

 

I'm happy to be put right on any of that, but taken together it seems to me that ET's intense dislike of the conjugated valve gear does at least have some basis in sound fact and clearly influenced his thinking in terms of his (re-)designs that were intended to eliminate it. As always, a certain amount of balance is required in any summation of somebody's work.

I'm inclined to agree with your summary, Graham,

 

There's no doubt that the Gresley gear suffered through lack of maintenance (but any complex machinery will do so). Was the independent gear more robust? I've heard tales of it failing because (more porcine?) crew members were reluctant to get 'inside' to check it (something not necessary with Gresley's three cylinder locos). Thus, lack of oil caused it to fail on occasions. I think it's Peter Townend who reported that (after the Cook improvements) the failure rate of his locos with Gresley's gear was even less than the A1s! 

 

After the Cook improvements, the ECML steam swansong was achieved mainly using big locos with conjugated valve gear (working to diesel schedules), and the final fling in Scotland was nothing less than epic. Thompson's big locos hardly featured at all. 

 

I still come back to the rebuilding of the P2s, and my knowledge of (from primary sources) how appalled the professional railwaymen who had to operate them were with the notion of their rebuilding. Effectively, Geoff Lund's notes more or less say 'We had a 'flawed' engine which could do the job. What we got in return was a flawed engine (different flaws) which couldn't'. Was it for nothing that Malcolm Crawley (he of first-hand experience) named his layout Thompson's End?

 

In fairness, history, and circumstances, have been unkind to ET. He was in the 'right place' at the 'wrong time'! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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15 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

I've read that - and then I later read an account by someone who was involved in the overhauling of locomotives at Doncaster that they set up a pacific using this new optical alignment equipment, then took it outside, parked it on a curve and found that the frames had deflected further than the official scrapping tolerance.   I'm not suggesting it did any harm, but it may not have been quite the revolution some have implied.

 

Incidentally I think you may be conflating two episodes of Doncaster learning from Swindon practice; Mr Cook changed the way the frames and cylinders were set up to be assembled; the lesson on valve events was during the 1925 exchange when (allegedly) the valves of the Castle locomotive were taken apart and examined overnight.

 

 

Thanks Jonathan,

 

Didn't someone once write that Doncaster's 'clearance' tolerances were greater than Swindon's 'scrapping' tolerances? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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What a strange coincidence.

I was looking through "Steaming through Berkhamsted" about an hour ago.

My wife has just told me that she was in touch with Mrs Green earlier on and they will be having coffee together next week now that we are allowed out. 

(Mrs Green and Mrs Lamb are both German for those who are unaware).

Bernard

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Continuing the present tangential diversion regarding ET; whilst Peppercorn takes the credit for the production K1s - and we know from 62005's sterling service over the years (and the wonderful work that NELPG and others do to keep her in good condition) how good the design was/is- I believe that much of the work was done before Pepp stepped up to the top job? Do we know what fine tuning, if any, was done by Pepp and his team before the design was signed off?

 

I must read Tim Hillier-Graves' new book too.

 

Mark

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1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

I'm working my way through the David Larkin book at the moment.   Very useful indeed.

Hi Jonathan

 

It is a wonderful book, no more getting away with any number on a grey 1923 RCH mineral.

 

Back in the early 80s David came to my house. In our chat he said he was trying to match private owner wagons with their BR numbers. In this book he says what the limitations of making a full list are but his hard work has given us the most complete list we will ever get.

 

A book all modellers of the 1950s and early 60s should have as a reference point for those 7 and 8 plank mineral wagons.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

There's no doubt that the Gresley gear suffered through lack of maintenance (but any complex machinery will do so). Was the independent gear more robust?

I don't know the real answer to that question Tony but logic would suggest that the very simplicity (relatively speaking) of the design of the conjugated gear results in fewer moving parts and bearings compared with a complete additional set of Walschaerts gear and the fact that those bearings could be relatively big would result in a more robust result whilst well maintained and in good condition.    

 

I think the main drawback is the fact that as the motion of the third valve is derived from the other two any play / lost motion that develops will have an amplified effect on the events of the third valve and so once the motion has been abused by over-work and inadequate maintenance over a long period (i.e. the war)  the results would seem very poor.   But wouldn't the basic simplicity of the design mean the performance could easily be restored by the simple expedient of providing new bearings ....... ?   

 

Perhaps we need to speak to the venerable Mr Townend to get the real answer from someone with real experience who knows!

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2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I was looking through "Steaming through Berkhamsted" about an hour ago.

As I know the area well even though "it's the wrong railway" I thoroughly enjoyed that book when I received it as a birthday gift a few years ago.

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