Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm always up for a spot of revisionism and reassessment of popular history / folklore / mythology in the light of the evidence! 

 

What evidence have you for assigning female gender to Mallard? 

'What evidence have you for assigning female gender to Mallard?'

 

Custom and practice, I think. 

 

Great ships as well as locomotives have historically been given the female gender. I once taught with a feminist who'd never heard of this custom and she was puzzled by it.

 

Interestingly, I believe it was also the custom in Germany, prior to WW2. On the launch of the Bismark, Hitler, aware of the battleship's strength, insisted that it be addressed as 'he'. Not a great moderniser, then! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[MarkC]

34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

What evidence have you for assigning female gender to Mallard? 

I believe that the accepted response to that is "How dare you!"

[Compound2632]

I just found myself wondering whether there is any difference in the top speed usually attained by ducks as opposed to drakes of the species anas platyrhynchos.

[LNER4479]

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Great ships as well as locomotives have historically been given the female gender. I once taught with a feminist who'd never heard of this custom and she was puzzled by it

Ships have a waist, take a lot of paint to keep them looking good and, when entering port, always head for the b(u)oys.

 

Steam locomotives are beautiful to look at, temperamental in behaviour and take a skilled hand to get the best performance out of.

 

What's so puzzling about that?

 

(I think I'd better go ...)

Edited April 11, 2021 by LNER4479

[jwealleans]

41 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

is the more dodgier.

You did that deliberately to see whether he'd bite, didn't you?

[LNER4479]

Yup - standing by, exercise book down the back of the pants ...

[bbishop]

6 hours ago, drmditch said:

I did ask this question a few pages ago, but no-one appears to have replied to it.

Were there any  British steam locomotives with 3 or more cylinders and 'undivided drive', other than those of Raven/Darlington and Gresley/Doncaster?

 

Surely every 4-4-0 ?

 

I haven't checked so am probably wrong.

 

Bill

Edited April 10, 2021 by bbishop

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

You did that deliberately to see whether he'd bite, didn't you?

I did note it Jonathan, but declined to comment. Of course it should be 'the more dodgy' or just plain 'dodgier' (I prefer the former). 

 

The 'boy' has rather let himself down, considering the piece he's written for the forthcoming Smoke and Steam is rather good..................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I just found myself wondering whether there is any difference in the top speed usually attained by ducks as opposed to drakes of the species anas platyrhynchos.

I have no idea whether there is a difference in the top speed of various species of birds, whether they are male or female. In most species, other than humans, is there much difference? I'm not a biologist, nor a zoologist to know.

 

What I do know is that it was a good idea to name (some of) the A4s after birds 'of swift and powerful flight', but where those responsible got the idea that some species of rotund grouse fitted into that category, I don't know. Raptors make excellent name choices (after all a peregrine is the fastest living thing on earth, or rather above it) and it was a shame that some were replaced by 'stodgy' directors' names towards the end of the LNER's existence, though, at least PEREGRINE became an A1..........................

 

 

Are Mallards particular fleet of flight? The two my wife and I inadvertently disturbed on our walk by the River Glen the other day certainly shifted, but they're nowhere near the speed which our resident sparrow hawk reaches as it blitzes the song birds in our garden. Should I carry on feeding them, with an aerial torpedo around? 

 

My MALLARD's pretty fast...................

 

 

Over 200 scale mph, uphill! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Chas Levin]

21 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

An interesting L & Y High Flyer, 7mm scale built entirely from card apart from mechanical parts and a few castings. (Builder not known). I think the tiny tender looks silly.

Ian R

Beautiful painting Ian! I would worry about the long-term stability and robustness of card for this sort of model: do you come across card-built locos often and if so, do they seem to last well?

I'd have to agree that the tender looks a little out of proportion: did they always run with that size behind them?

Edited: Just caught up on more recent posts about the reasons for small L&Y tenders...

Edited April 10, 2021 by Chas Levin

[john new]

5 hours ago, FarrMan said:

Strictly speaking, though the whole of Ireland was in the UK, it was not part of Britain. Hence you still get 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. However, I agree to adding it to the list as a UK engine. Just don't want to upset the Irish.

Unless you count British (not UK as that is political rather than geographic and not the same thing at all) as all the British Isles, if not then several other island communities also get excluded. The IOM and CIs though didn’t have 4-6-0s.

[john new]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm always up for a spot of revisionism and reassessment of popular history / folklore / mythology in the light of the evidence! 

 

What evidence have you for assigning female gender to Mallard? 

A feminist I know recently said that it is because men treat their women as petable objects, boss them around despite adoring them, and regard themselves as genuinely in charge. (Not verbatim but as close as I can recall). 
 

I think even as a male the way so many men, until recently, have been very mysogenistic and sexist gives that viewpoint on the debate some credibility.

 

Probably someone, somewhere, has published a PHD thesis on it; if they have it will be an interesting read.

[simontaylor484]

It all depends wether they are African or European birds 

 

Hat coat gone .....

[Bucoops]

14 minutes ago, simontaylor484 said:

It all depends wether they are African or European birds 

 

Hat coat gone .....

 

Someone had to go there

[drmditch]

Re: Gender of steam locomotives.
I'm sure I have posted on this before, but this issue was resolved by Miss F Kemble and Mr G Stephenson in 1830.
'All the little fire horses are made mares.'

Re: Fastest ducks.
Again I have posted on this before, but I understand that the fastest British duck is the Eider.

Re: Sparrow Hawks

Not sure that they are actually that fast in a straight line, but are very good at manoevering, and striking suddenly.
They are also magnificent, and I am honoured that one sometimes visits my garden.

[Gibbo675]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

.. but not a 4-6-0!

 

How many 'cylinders' did GT3 have?

At least one or the brakes would not have worked !!!

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, drmditch said:

I did ask this question a few pages ago, but no-one appears to have replied to it.

Were there any  British steam locomotives with 3 or more cylinders and 'undivided drive', other than those of Raven/Darlington and Gresley/Doncaster?

 

F.W. Webb's three and four cylinder compound 0-8-0s (Classes A and B in Whale's scheme) all had undivided drive on the second axle. 

 

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

 

Surely every 4-4-0 ?

 

I haven't checked so am probably wrong.

 

Bill

 

... indeed, not that there were so many, but Webb's four-cylinder compound 4-4-0s - the Jubilee and Alfred the Great classes - certainly did. 

 

Were his 1400 Class four-cylinder compound 4-6-0s of 1903 - 'Bill Bailey' - on the list? They also had undivided drive, on the leading coupled axle.

 

And of course there's the Midland / LMS Compounds, along with the Great Northern Class V compounds, that were based on them, and W.M. Smith's North Eastern prototype that preceded them.

[sandra]

On 05/04/2021 at 19:20, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Sandra,

 

Have you wound up COCK O' THE NORTH, SUGAR PALM and 60826 to full speed? They all have DJH gearboxes in them. I'm sure they'll all do more than 67 mph.

 

Any big loco I've got one in on LB will easily reach a 'ton', and more.

 

I'd love to meet the guy/girl who can build any gearbox in ten minutes, let alone a High Level one. Every 'box I've made (many from DJH) needs very careful assembly; anything from Branchlines, SEF, High Level, Comet, Markits, DJH, Porter's Cap, Backwoods Miniatures, etc, needs the bearing holes broaching out to exactly the right diameter, otherwise there's either friction, misalignment or too much slop. The same is so for the motor fixing positions. The best I've ever managed is at least an hour, but then I won't accept anything other than super-sweet running; that takes time. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Tony,

 

I’ve now had the chance to try the top speeds of these three locomotives.

 

60501 Cock O’ the North reached 112 mph with a heavy 12 coach train and here she is doing it.60501 handles this heavy train effortlessly but she can’t match 60027 Merlin for speed for she reached 120 mph with the up Elizabethan.

 

60526 Sugar Palm with a heavy 13 coach train managed a maximum of 69 mph. The V2 60826 with an up fish train reached 66 mph but light engine she managed 75 mph.

 

I’m building an A2/3 which is going to become 60524 Herringbone. This is fitted with the latest DJH motor and gearbox. With a 13 coach train this locomotive reached only 62 mph and here’s a photo of her.The locomotive has only just been built and is still incomplete and as this is her first outing on Retford she may become faster as she gets run in.

 

I also tested the speed of a couple of RTR locos. Bachmann 60117 Bois Russell reached 87 mph and Hornby 60020 Guillemot had a top speed of 100. This is a new locomotive to Retford which I have just converted to EM gauge. Here she is at the flat crossing.I intend to renumber the loco to 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgwood. It also still needs more work to improve the appearance but it can manage a 12 coach train no doubt because I’ve added extra weight weight to it. However these RTR locos do have a feeling of fragility to them compared with a heavy loco built from a white metal kit and I must say I do prefer the kit built locomotives.

 

Sandra

 

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Yep - been there as well (2017).

 

Was it positioned slightly better for my photo?

 

I took note of the citation alongside the loco. My German's not brilliant but even I can see the reference to Mallard in there.

 

Chucking the text of that last paragraph into Google translate, it comes back with:

 

'During high-speed tests on this route (Berlin-Hamburg), 05 002 set a new world record for steam locomotives on May 11, 1936 rather casually* with 200.4 km / h. The English locomotive 'Mallard' barely* exceeded this record two years later with 202.8 km / h. It still holds this speed record for steam locomotives to this day.'

 

I would invite more competent German speakers than me to either confirm or suggest alternative words to those asterix'd - as written, it continues the impression of the Germans being rather miffed! (developing world events at the time notwithstanding)

 

I suspect two things Graham.

 

1. Your photo wasn't taken on a very dark and dreary December day.

 

2. You have a better camera than I.

[drmditch]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

F.W. Webb's three and four cylinder compound 0-8-0s (Classes A and B in Whale's scheme) all had undivided drive on the second axle. 

 

 

... indeed, not that there were so many, but Webb's four-cylinder compound 4-4-0s - the Jubilee and Alfred the Great classes - certainly did. 

 

Were his 1400 Class four-cylinder compound 4-6-0s of 1903 - 'Bill Bailey' - on the list? They also had undivided drive, on the leading coupled axle.

 

And of course there's the Midland / LMS Compounds, along with the Great Northern Class V compounds, that were based on them, and W.M. Smith's North Eastern prototype that preceded them.

Thank you. I wasn't aware of that these Webb  locomotives were 'undivided'. I will have to check the dates to see if the apprentice HNG might have seen these 'in shops'.

I wasn't sure about the Midland/LMS compounds. How far, do you think, these were carrying on the W M Smith design concepts?
Would the Deeley/Fowler 4-6-0 have had the same arrangements?

I'm always interested in concepts and continuity within and across companies and works, as opposed to labelling everything by the name of the chief engineer at that time.
 

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, sandra said:

Tony,

 

I’ve now had the chance to try the top speeds of these three locomotives.

 

60501 Cock O’ the North reached 112 mph with a heavy 12 coach train and here she is doing it.60501 handles this heavy train effortlessly but she can’t match 60027 Merlin for speed for she reached 120 mph with the up Elizabethan.

 

60526 Sugar Palm with a heavy 13 coach train managed a maximum of 69 mph. The V2 60826 with an up fish train reached 66 mph but light engine she managed 75 mph.

 

I’m building an A2/3 which is going to become 60524 Herringbone. This is fitted with the latest DJH motor and gearbox. With a 13 coach train this locomotive reached only 62 mph and here’s a photo of her.The locomotive has only just been built and is still incomplete and as this is her first outing on Retford she may become faster as she gets run in.

 

I also tested the speed of a couple of RTR locos. Bachmann 60117 Bois Russell reached 87 mph and Hornby 60020 Guillemot had a top speed of 100. This is a new locomotive to Retford which I have just converted to EM gauge. Here she is at the flat crossing.I intend to renumber the loco to 60006 Sir Ralph Wedgwood. It also still needs more work to improve the appearance but it can manage a 12 coach train no doubt because I’ve added extra weight weight to it. However these RTR locos do have a feeling of fragility to them compared with a heavy loco built from a white metal kit and I must say I do prefer the kit built locomotives.

 

Sandra

 

Thanks Sandra,

 

I think the reason for 60501's higher speed is because, although it's got a DJH gearbox, it has an open-framed D13 Mashima, rather than a can. My MALLARD has the same combination, and on LB it'll do 200! 

 

I know Retford's controllers (on the main lines) are Modelex ones (the sort used on Stoke and Charwelton), and they do give plenty of power.

 

However, the ones I use on Little Bytham are Helmsman O Gauge ones, which give a substantial amount of 'grunt'. I'm not a physicist, so cannot understand the science, but I think they give in excess of three amps. 

 

They certainly make Bytham's big locos 'fly'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Chuffer Davies]

14 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:I'm not a physicist, so cannot understand the science, but I think they give in excess of three amps. 

 

They certainly make Bytham's big locos 'fly'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony,

whilst a low powered controller may limit the power, as long as the controller is adequate it is the motor that determines how many amps it needs.  There will be slight differences in the maximum number of volts available for different makes of controller.  I still remember the formula V=IxR from my o level physics at school.

Regards,

Frank

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, drmditch said:

I wasn't sure about the Midland/LMS compounds. How far, do you think, these were carrying on the W M Smith design concepts?
Would the Deeley/Fowler 4-6-0 have had the same arrangements?

 

Broadly speaking, the Deeley (and hence LMS) compounds are the same as the Smith-Johnson compounds; the difference lies in the details. Deeley eliminated anything that was patented to W.M. Smith, substituting his own design of starting valve, for instance. (Smith and Johnson had had a long and close association going back to the 1860s when Smith was Johnson's chief draughtsman at Cowlairs; one of Smith's sons was in the Derby Locomotive Drawing Office but left soon after Deeley took charge, moving to Gorton where Robinson was building some very Smith-like compounds.) 

 

I don't off-hand know how the 4-6-0 was to have been laid out. Of course the later LMS 3-cylinder engines had divided drive so that possibly gives a big hint as to what the latest thinking had been.

[Tony Wright]

13 hours ago, drmditch said:

Re: Gender of steam locomotives.
I'm sure I have posted on this before, but this issue was resolved by Miss F Kemble and Mr G Stephenson in 1830.
'All the little fire horses are made mares.'

Re: Fastest ducks.
Again I have posted on this before, but I understand that the fastest British duck is the Eider.

Re: Sparrow Hawks

Not sure that they are actually that fast in a straight line, but are very good at manoevering, and striking suddenly.
They are also magnificent, and I am honoured that one sometimes visits my garden.

Our resident sparrow hawk uses the gap between our neighbours' house and ours (we only have neighbours one side) as a sort of aerial corridor by which it ambushes the little birds. I have to say it seems to go like a bullet in a straight line, crashing into its victims in a whirl of feathers. 

 

I find that I'm extremely ambivalent about this. Being rural, we have just about every species of songbird visit our feeders, and I regret the odd one having to perish. But having a raptor as well is extremely rewarding.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[St Enodoc]

50 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Our resident sparrow hawk uses the gap between our neighbours' house and ours (we only have neighbours one side) as a sort of aerial corridor by which it ambushes the little birds. I have to say it seems to go like a bullet in a straight line, crashing into its victims in a whirl of feathers. 

 

I find that I'm extremely ambivalent about this. Being rural, we have just about every species of songbird visit our feeders, and I regret the odd one having to perish. But having a raptor as well is extremely rewarding.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

It's just the way it is. Nature, red in tooth and claw.

Edited April 11, 2021 by St Enodoc