Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, sandra said:

Thanks for that Robert. I will try and find the missing ground signal. I do notice that many of the photographs taken of the flat crossing show stock stored in that siding. As there are now a number of spare coaches I think we should store a few in that siding to recreate this scene.

 

I presume this was intended to be a lay-by siding but it does seem to be in a strange location. Reversing any stock into it blocks both the down main and both lines of the GC. Also a few yards north there is a down goods avoiding line and a goods lay-by siding at the north end by Babworth box. So this siding seems to be unnecessary.

 

Sandra

From memory,

 

Occasionally the siding would be home to a DMU.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Ray Flintoft]

On 09/04/2021 at 19:05, drmditch said:

 

Please could you quote your sources for this view of the J39s?

Everything I have read suggests that they were powerful and useful engines, thus leading to their use on services for which an 0-6-0 would not have been the best vehicle, and leading to excessive wear in the front axleboxes. The valve gear, although drawn at Darlington, was derived from a mixture of pre-grouping practice. I understand that it was influenced by GC practice (as in the A5s).

(This is largely based on RCTS Green Books)

 

One aspect of LNER three cylinder design which has not been discussed above is that Gresley preferred  to avoid a divided drive. This would seem to be very sensible to me, but as with all engineering design lead to other compromises.

 

I don't want to spend time looking this up at the moment (my soldering iron is on and I have connections to make), but can anyone think of any other engineering school (other than the NER and Raven)  who used consolidated drive for multi-cylinder locomotives?

 

Various articles by Dick Hardy  plus articles in the Gresley Observer & magazines over the years . They were indeed powerful & useful  but they had been designed for mixed traffic work , on which they were not suitable . The similar J.38 with smaller wheels & used almost exclusively on slow freight work  ,was perfectly satisfactory . The Thompson K.1 was a much more suitable design for mixed traffic work .

   Your point on unified drive v divided drive is a good one . It seems that both had advantages & dis advantages but perhaps the majority of designers went for divided drive . Certainly the German 3-cylinder pacifics of class 01.10 & 03.10 had divided drive & ran extremely high annual mileages .

                                                              Cheers ,

                                                                    Ray .

[jwealleans]

18 minutes ago, Ray Flintoft said:

They were indeed powerful & useful  but they had been designed for mixed traffic work , on which they were not suitable .

 

Gresley wanted to build a 2-6-0, as I understand it, but for some reason was not allowed to.

[sandra]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

Gresley wanted to build a 2-6-0, as I understand it, but for some reason was not allowed to.

Gresley had of course already designed three classes of 2-6-0 for the GN which became LNER classes K1, K2 and K3. The K1s were rebuilt to K2, the Peppercorn K1s came later.

 

I don’t know why the J39 was built as an 0-6-0 but it was preceded by the J38 which had smaller wheels and was mainly confined to mineral working in Fife. The J39 followed and were essentially the same but with larger wheels but they had been rendered extinct in 1962. In fact they were all withdrawn before the first J38 was withdrawn and the last J38s were withdrawn in 1967 and were the last Gresley locomotives in service.

 

Perhaps rather than building the J39s more J38s and K3s would have sufficed.

 

Sandra

[Chas Levin]

20 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

It was the only card loco I have painted. It came to me already painted so had been around for a bit. It needed lots of tlc but, of course, I couldn’t strip it, so lots of very gentle rubbing down was called for. As I recall its bodywork was very rigid so it had been built by someone who knew what they were doing but as it was ready painted I don’t know what pretreatment it had received in the way of shellac or primers. The splashers should have polished brass beading, something else that can’t be done in card, not on this engine anyway. 
 

A proper engine - again 7mm scale but live steam and scratch built. It has a pot boiler but can run for 20 minutes on one fill.

 

The ornate lettering is a transfer, but because of the heat, I couldn’t use transfers for the boiler bands so the lines were ruled directly on to the bands.

 

Ian R

Thanks Ian, very interesting. in light of that and the other replies, I've clearly underestimated card as a modelling medium.

The live steam 112 is a real beauty, isn't it?

Do you mean you did its boiler bands using a bow pen? If so, how do you assure straight lines without going along a ruler? Do you use a curving straight-edge of some sort?

[robertcwp]

8 hours ago, Major Clanger said:

Sandra,

 

Roy's intention was to build a rake of carriages (possibly a 6-car rake) to recreate the Leeds excursion which was advertised on the back wall. What the attraction of Leeds for 6 carriages' worth of Retford citizens was I don't know, but apparently it was a fairly regular excursion. Be careful if you put stock in the siding as I don't think it's level, so it might need spragging. I don't know who or what demolished the ground signal, but I think its remains were in a wagon in the fish dock sidings.

That may be where I saw the signal! It's a long time since I have visited.

[Tony Wright]

After a gap of far too long, I've returned to building the Alan Gibson 'County' tank.

 

 

 

The fit of the parts is rather good, though there's a bit of metal-forming required.

 

Obviously, little (if any) cleaning up has taken place, though I wish my work didn't look quite so messy at source.

 

Shouldn't take too long to complete now........................

 

I don't think I've ever seen a model of this class. I certainly don't have a picture of one in my photo library.

 

Anyone made one out there? 

 

 

[Ian Rathbone]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Ian, very interesting. in light of that and the other replies, I've clearly underestimated card as a modelling medium.

The live steam 112 is a real beauty, isn't it?

Do you mean you did its boiler bands using a bow pen? If so, how do you assure straight lines without going along a ruler? Do you use a curving straight-edge of some sort?

I used compasses running along the edge of boiler band, the point of the compasses replaced with a short length of 1mm brass wire. The wire follows the edge while the nib puts down a line at a set distance from it. It’s not an easy technique and the band needs to have a good clean edge. It works better if the boiler (and handrails) can be removed. I use the same method to line valance edges, wheels and buffer beams. 
 

Ian R

[Woodcock29]

Tony

I haven't built a County tank but I did purchase a second-hand one for about £45 purely for the old quiet large Portescap that was in it. It was purchased second-hand unseen from a deceased estate in NSW by one of our SA members but he found it wouldn't run on his layout because of the inflexibility in the chassis. I've since used the motor in something else and have installed a spare Buhler motor with Ultrascale gears in the County tank but it needs some work on the chassis to get it running properly and then it might return to the mate I got it from.

 

Andrew

[Jack P]

I would apologize for this being off topic, but as this thread moves so fast the topic may well be NPC again before I have a chance to blink.

 

I recently finished this Five79 Pigeon Van:

 

 

It's probably not 100% accurate, but it's close enough for me. I added some extra bits and pieces and replaced the footboards with some much thinner ones from plastic card. I'll probably replace the buffers with sprung ones if I can find any that look suitable. Ignore the errant screw coupling.

[Tony Wright]

6 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony

I haven't built a County tank but I did purchase a second-hand one for about £45 purely for the old quiet large Portescap that was in it. It was purchased second-hand unseen from a deceased estate in NSW by one of our SA members but he found it wouldn't run on his layout because of the inflexibility in the chassis. I've since used the motor in something else and have installed a spare Buhler motor with Ultrascale gears in the County tank but it needs some work on the chassis to get it running properly and then it might return to the mate I got it from.

 

Andrew

Thanks Andrew,

 

What is the loco's origin, please? If you know.

 

Could it be a Gibson kit? The reason I ask is that the bunker in the kit I'm building is straight across the back, with no inset for the top lamp bracket. It also has the extra vertical handrail on this side of the bunker.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

P.S. I've just found the etched bit to make the inset for the top rear lamp bracket. I assumed it would be part of the bunker rear casting. Never assume anything in a kit! 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Chamby]

On 11/04/2021 at 21:38, Tony Wright said:

Cast metal loco crew figures from Monty's Models (Dart Castings?) and/or Millholme Models.

 

Often mutilated to fit, painted and superglued in place. 

 

Working steam-outline locos (though I accept a problem if on shed) must be crewed, in the same way they must be lamped-up and, for good measure, carry loco tools.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

21 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Always more to learn!

I use masterpiece falcon Figures, Modelu & Dart Castings.

Tony

 

I have started to use 3D printed figures from You-choos.  They are similar to Modelu, with natural poses.  They’re not as crisply defined, but when they are placed in the cab that doesn’t show, and if bought unpainted they are less than half the price.

[The Fatadder]

1 hour ago, Chamby said:

 

 

I have started to use 3D printed figures from You-choos.  They are similar to Modelu, with natural poses.  They’re not as crisply defined, but when they are placed in the cab that doesn’t show, and if bought unpainted they are less than half the price.

Another one worth looking at in my opinion is Hardy’s Hobbies. They do a bulk pack of 3D printed loco crew, again not quite to Model U standards but a lot cheaper and more than good enough for an enclosed cab in my opinion.  

 

i have a set of the Dart Castings crew awaiting painting to put in my 47xx (any extra weight being welcome), looking forward to seeing how they look in comparison 

[Woodcock29]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

What is the loco's origin, please? If you know.

 

Could it be a Gibson kit? The reason I ask is that the bunker in the kit I'm building is straight across the back, with no inset for the top lamp bracket. It also has the extra vertical handrail on this side of the bunker.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

P.S. I've just found the etched bit to make the inset for the top rear lamp bracket. I assumed it would be part of the bunker rear casting. Never assume anything in a kit! 

Sorry Tony I meant to say it is the Gibson kit. It came boxed.

Andrew

[bbishop]

18 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

Gresley wanted to build a 2-6-0, as I understand it, but for some reason was not allowed to.

 

At about the same time, Stanier was authorising another batch of 4Fs and Maunsell was signing his name to the Q class, basically a 4F clone.  It needed Fairburn (an electrical engineer) to instigate the 2MT classes that were built in Ivatt's tenure.

Bill

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

 

At about the same time, Stanier was authorising another batch of 4Fs and Maunsell was signing his name to the Q class, basically a 4F clone.  It needed Fairburn (an electrical engineer) to instigate the 2MT classes that were built in Ivatt's tenure.

Bill

 

Evidently for the sort of work expected of them - slow-paced loose-coupled mineral or goods trains - a leading truck offered no advantage for an engine in the 4F bracket. Such an engine could occasionally be pressed into passenger use, as had 0-6-0s since time immemorial, and on a good road* that would present no great problem - after all, Stroudley had perfectly sound reasoning behind his preference for leading drivers on his coupled express passenger engines, which Johnson and later Drummond took on board for their 0-4-4Ts, which were expected to do some express turns.

 

The Fairburn / Ivatt 2-6-0 is not relevant to this discussion, being intended for quite different work - the clue being in the 2MT classification. The 4MT is, however. Outside cylinders also have a bearing...

 

*I understand that when Ivatt père arrived at Doncaster, the Great Northern's permanent way was in poor shape. I imagine this took a while to be sorted out; I wonder if it influenced Gresley's preference for a leading truck? After all, that's why the classic American mogul was developed in the 1860s/70s. (Plus of course the outside cylinders.)

Edited April 13, 2021 by Compound2632
Typo corrected

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

 

Stanier was authorising another batch of 4Fs ...

Somewhat under duress, if accounts are to be believed. It was 1937 and he had rather bigger fish to fry at that particular moment ...

[bbishop]

53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Evidently for the sort of work expected of them - slow-paced loose-coupled mineral or goods trains - a leading truck offered no advantage for an engine in the 4F bracket. Such an engine could occasionally be pressed into passenger use, as had 0-6-0s since time immemorial, and on a good road* that would present no great problem - after all, Stroudley had perfectly sound reasoning behind his preference for leading drivers on his coupled express passenger engines, which Johnson and later Drummond took on board for their 0-4-4Ts, which were expected to dos some express turns.

 

The Fairburn / Ivatt 2-6-0 is not relevant to this discussion, being intended for quite different work - the clue being in the 2MT classification. The 4MT is, however. Outside cylinders also have a bearing...

 

*I understand that when Ivatt père arrived at Doncaster, the Great Northern's permanent way was in poor shape. I imagine this took a while to be sorted out; I wonder if it influenced Gresley's preference for a leading truck? After all, that's why the classic American mogul was developed in the 1860s/70s. (Plus of course the outside cylinders.)

 

A brace of Drummond M7s had a bit of a whoopsie on the lightly laid Plymouth line so they were soon kept to their primary role, which was outer suburban to Guildford etc. at a speed of 50 - 55mph.  There was a nasty at Raynes Park in 1933 which might have been less spectacular if a loco with leading wheels were involved.

 

The Q class was a direct replacement for the first batch of Adams Jubilees, so they were built with a mixed traffic role in mind.  Apparently Bulleid arrived just as they were being outshopped and was absolutely horrified at what he regarded to be a nineteenth century design.  Hence his Q1 class, superb locomotives until it came to stopping a loose coupled train!  Bill

[Denbridge]

16 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

After a gap of far too long, I've returned to building the Alan Gibson 'County' tank.

 

 

 

The fit of the parts is rather good, though there's a bit of metal-forming required.

 

Obviously, little (if any) cleaning up has taken place, though I wish my work didn't look quite so messy at source.

 

Shouldn't take too long to complete now........................

 

I don't think I've ever seen a model of this class. I certainly don't have a picture of one in my photo library.

 

Anyone made one out there? 

 

 

I havent yet built mine, but i have an original M&L kit from which the Gibson kit is derived. Seeing how well yours is coming together is encouragement to crack on with it. Sooner rather than later.

[Evertonian]

The recent talk here of card modelling reminded me of a terrific '0' gauge

Castle loco featured many years ago in the Railway Modeller.  If memory

serves correctly I seem to recall it was built by Stephen Williams (?)

Of 'Wellington' fame, a super layout - hoping Tony may have some photos

to remind us of its beauty.

 

Chris Knight

[Tony Wright]

22 minutes ago, Evertonian said:

The recent talk here of card modelling reminded me of a terrific '0' gauge

Castle loco featured many years ago in the Railway Modeller.  If memory

serves correctly I seem to recall it was built by Stephen Williams (?)

Of 'Wellington' fame, a super layout - hoping Tony may have some photos

to remind us of its beauty.

 

Chris Knight

Good afternoon Chris,

 

I do have pictures of that cardboard 'Castle', but they're all on film.

 

It was built by David Amias (who also built Wellington) and it's a bit bigger than O Gauge. I think it's in 7 1/4 gauge!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[LNER4479]

5 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I do have pictures of that cardboard 'Castle', but they're all on film.

 

I think it's in 7 1/4 gauge!

Yikes! That's a helluva lot of Corn Flakes boxes ...

[Evertonian]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Chris,

 

I do have pictures of that cardboard 'Castle', but they're all on film.

 

It was built by David Amias (who also built Wellington) and it's a bit bigger than O Gauge. I think it's in 7 1/4 gauge!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony, at least I remembered it was a 'Castle' and the layout 

Wellington, where I got Stephen Williams from is a mystery! 7 1/4 gauge,

that's a lot of cardboard.  Any shots of the layout, I saw it once, at one

of the Wolverhampton Club's exhibitions ? Probably not judging by my

level of recall lately. An excellent piece of modelling is not in doubt

though.

 

[Tony Wright]

22 minutes ago, Evertonian said:

Thanks Tony, at least I remembered it was a 'Castle' and the layout 

Wellington, where I got Stephen Williams from is a mystery! 7 1/4 gauge,

that's a lot of cardboard.  Any shots of the layout, I saw it once, at one

of the Wolverhampton Club's exhibitions ? Probably not judging by my

level of recall lately. An excellent piece of modelling is not in doubt

though.

 

Good evening Chris,

 

I do have photos of Wellington, but they're all on tranny/B&W film.

 

One day I'll have to get the collection scanned. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Adam88]

http://wikimapia.org/1998101/Quarry-Wood-Hall#/photo/1268926

 

I've often gone past the Cardboard Castle.