Wright writes.....

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Would I be correct in thinking that train reversed at Manchester Central having arrived in off the CLC route, then took the Fallowfield loop to Guide Bridge where it would have handed over to electric traction? Two loco changes within 10 miles / 20 mins of each other!

 

I've had a look in a couple of my Manchester-centric books. No luck so far but I've got a couple more I can check out...

 

Most of the through trains did this, engine changes at Guide Bridge were very slick, a bit more leisurely when the electric loco came off at Victoria - four engine changes between Liverpool and Sheffield would seem a little excessive though. The fastest part of the route was usually with a 2-6-4T on the CLC to Manchester....

[robertcwp]

31 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Robert

 

Colin (last name escapes me!) of Stony Stratford used to have some involvement with his photos. I can't recall if he was SRRS or Mangotsfield Railway Circle.

 

Memory kicked in: Colin Stacey!

 

Brian

Also no longer in SRRS and is the MRC still going?

[BMacdermott]

Hello Robert

 

I have just checked my (handwritten) address book and I still have Colin's phone number as we have been known to each for many years, mainly via the late Richard Strange.  I haven't seen him for a long while although we have bumped into each in Milton Keynes City Centre from time-to-time.

 

I will ring  him later today.

 

Brian

[jrg1]

19 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Most of the through trains did this, engine changes at Guide Bridge were very slick, a bit more leisurely when the electric loco came off at Victoria - four engine changes between Liverpool and Sheffield would seem a little excessive though. The fastest part of the route was usually with a 2-6-4T on the CLC to Manchester....

Can anyone advise on the NCC train formation through the years?  I used to see the evening train to Harwich passing through Lincoln Central on my way home from school.  I know that the buffet car was ex-GER, and that for a short time the buffet was a Bulleid tavern car.  I also recollect reading that Hawksworth coaches were once seen in the formation.

Anyone out there who can expand on this?

[65179]

45 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Also no longer in SRRS and is the MRC still going?

 

Brian Green (usually credited as BKB Green) sadly died within the last year or so. Some of his photos were at points available from Colin Stacey trading as Initial Photographics (usually at one point advertised in BRILL). However I do not know what is to happen to his collection.  It may pass to the Manchester Locomotive Society. 

 

Regarding roofboards, back in the mists of time Robert we discussed a photo in the LMS Journal no4 showing a boat train at Liverpool Central ca 1950 (immediately post-Tavern cars). Thd three boards on the Gresley TK read:

 

PARQUESTON QUAY MARCH (or at  a push HARWICH)

LINCOLN SHEFFIELD

MANCHESTER LIVERPOOL

 

Regards

 

Simon Grand

Edited June 3, 2021 by 65179

[robertcwp]

53 minutes ago, jrg1 said:

Can anyone advise on the NCC train formation through the years?  I used to see the evening train to Harwich passing through Lincoln Central on my way home from school.  I know that the buffet car was ex-GER, and that for a short time the buffet was a Bulleid tavern car.  I also recollect reading that Hawksworth coaches were once seen in the formation.

Anyone out there who can expand on this?

Try this.

 

An ex-GER car was used, as was one of the early 1950s Gresley RKB conversions. Neither type is currently available in kit form so far as I am aware so the boat train on Retford is having to make do with a regular Gresley buffet car.

[robertcwp]

52 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

Brian Green (usually credited as BKB Green) sadly died within the last year or so. Some of his photos were at points available from Colin Stacey trading as Initial Photographics (usually at one point advertised in BRILL). However I do not know what is to happen to his collection.  It may pass to the Manchester Locomotive Society. 

 

Regarding roofboards, back in the mists of time Robert we discussed a photo in the LMS Journal no4 showing a boat train at Liverpool Central ca 1950 (immediately post-Tavern cars). Thd three boards on the Gresley TK read:

 

PARQUESTON QUAY MARCH (or at  a push HARWICH)

LINCOLN SHEFFIELD

MANCHESTER LIVERPOOL

 

Regards

 

Simon Grand

Thanks, I had a vague memory of a photo at Liverpool Central.

 

Photos from later in the 1950s show only short carriage boards. Part of one is visible in a photo in the recent B17s book by Peter Tuffrey. All I can make out is PARKESTON QUAY.

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Try this.

 

An ex-GER car was used, as was one of the early 1950s Gresley RKB conversions. Neither type is currently available in kit form so far as I am aware so the boat train on Retford is having to make do with a regular Gresley buffet car.

 

Hi Robert,

 

Out of curiosity is it know what diagram number the ex-GER car was?

 

thanks

[jwealleans]

I believe we had a discussion about this vehicle fairly recently on this thread?   It was either E667E or E669E, I'm not at home and can't check.   There is a photograph of it having been detached at Sheffield in one of the collections of photographs of the Woodhead route.  As for diagram, those were an NTA (No Two Alike) group of carriages so your best bet for building one is as many photographs as you can muster.  There's a very useful article in the GERJ as well as the better known Clive Carter piece.

 

We ran a representation of the NCC on Thurston when it was on the circuit and I built the RF from a D & S kit, but never completed the GE TO to accompany it (from Bill Bedford).  I think I made a D27A as a stopgap.  It was never an accurate model - apart from anything in the stock, at the time we purported to represent, the train was double headed through Thurston by a K3 and Britannia and we never did that.

 

Edit - the discussion started a few posts above this one, last October.

Edited June 3, 2021 by jwealleans

[BMacdermott]

Hello Robert & Simon

 

Have just spoken with Colin...

 

He was looking after the Brian Green Collection but it was subsequently bought by Norman Preedy, who himself has since passed away. Colin thinks the collection might be at the Severn Valley Railway.

 

However, Colin kindly checked his records of loco numbers in the collection, but 61633 doesn't feature and the name 'B Green' doesn't appear in the book's acknowledgements.

 

Brian

[robertcwp]

3 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I believe we had a discussion about this vehicle fairly recently on this thread?   It was either E667E or E669E, I'm not at home and can't check.   There is a photograph of it having been detached at Sheffield in one of the collections of photographs of the Woodhead route.  As for diagram, those were an NTA (No Two Alike) group of carriages so your best bet for building one is as many photographs as you can muster.  There's a very useful article in the GERJ as well as the better known Clive Carter piece.

 

We ran a representation of the NCC on Thurston when it was on the circuit and I built the RF from a D & S kit, but never completed the GE TO to accompany it (from Bill Bedford).  I think I made a D27A as a stopgap.  It was never an accurate model - apart from anything in the stock, at the time we purported to represent, the train was double headed through Thurston by a K3 and Britannia and we never did that.

E667E in maroon was in use in 1958 - photo in the EM Johnson Woodhead Part 2 book.

[robertcwp]

14 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Re, the signal 'Falling over' on Retford, I think  Roy 'Pushed' it over, his way of saying, 'that loco's not heavy enough'..........

 

Terry, (aka manna)

Roy's ghost at work!

 

There was an occasion when Sandra and I were in the railway room and there was a sudden, loud noise of something falling over but we could not see what. We did wonder if that was Roy's ghost expressing disapproval at something.

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, ecgtheow said:

Good morning Tony,

Where will your review of the book on the first 25 years of BR in North Wales, Chester & the Wirral be published? I ask because like you it was my stomping ground having been born & brought up In Bebington & later lived for a short time in Chester.

 

William

Good evening William,

 

In the August issue of BRM. It's very good (the book I mean, not my review).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I believe we had a discussion about this vehicle fairly recently on this thread?   It was either E667E or E669E, I'm not at home and can't check.   There is a photograph of it having been detached at Sheffield in one of the collections of photographs of the Woodhead route.  As for diagram, those were an NTA (No Two Alike) group of carriages so your best bet for building one is as many photographs as you can muster.  There's a very useful article in the GERJ as well as the better known Clive Carter piece.

 

We ran a representation of the NCC on Thurston when it was on the circuit and I built the RF from a D & S kit, but never completed the GE TO to accompany it (from Bill Bedford).  I think I made a D27A as a stopgap.  It was never an accurate model - apart from anything in the stock, at the time we purported to represent, the train was double headed through Thurston by a K3 and Britannia and we never did that.

 

Edit - the discussion started a few posts above this one, last October.

 

Thank you - so D30E that D&S used to do. Hopefully I can find one one day!

[65179]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Thank you - so D30E that D&S used to do. Hopefully I can find one one day!

More discussion on what the RF was paired with on Jonathan's LNER forum thread part way down this page: https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=937&start=330

 

Simon 

[jrg1]

10 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Try this.

 

An ex-GER car was used, as was one of the early 1950s Gresley RKB conversions. Neither type is currently available in kit form so far as I am aware so the boat train on Retford is having to make do with a regular Gresley buffet car.

Many Thanks for that, Robert.  Hope there are no copyright issues with the photograph.  Any information on the NCC would be most welcome.

[jwealleans]

That's the picture.  From memory the TO is one of a pair the GE built but can be identified as the other was destroyed during the Second War.    Bill Bedford used to do etches for it.   The GESJ article I mentioned yesterday covers those vehicles as well as I recall.

 

 

[65179]

@jrg1 there will certainly be copyright issues with the typesetting in the book and probably with the photo itself.

 

This isn't perfect,  but is a good starting point for understanding copyright in relation to photographs:

 

https://www.dacs.org.uk/knowledge-base/factsheets/copyright-in-photographs.aspx#duration

 

Regards,

 

Simon

Edited June 4, 2021 by 65179

[Chamby]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

@jrg1 there will certainly be copyright issues with the typesetting in the book and probably with the photo itself.

 

This isn't perfect,  but is a good starting point for understanding copyright in relation to photographs:

 

https://www.dacs.org.uk/knowledge-base/factsheets/copyright-in-photographs.aspx#duration

 

Regards,

 

Simon

 

What an ambiguous mess!  It would, however, seem to be a reasonable assumption that photographs pre-dating 1939 (fifty years before the new legislation in 1989) are less likely to be protected now.

 

Post 1939, where the date of death of the original photographer is the determining factor (plus fifty or seventy years) and the inheritors are unknown, investigating image copyright becomes a nightmare for the average citizen.

 

Which prompts the question, regarding photographs posted on this forum, about the legal position:  is it the responsibility of the poster to determine whether copyright exists  - and how might that be determined if copyright is not overtly claimed where the image was sourced from by the poster?  Or is it up to the copyright holder to assert their right once it has been posted?  

 

If the latter, presumably the copyright holder can reasonably ask for the image to be removed.  But do they also have an enforceable legal right for financial compensation, and if so how much?  

 

I can envisage the scenario where many images are technically copyrighted, but the inheriting copyright holder is either unaware of this, or has no interest in following it up. 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Chamby
Clarification of a point

[65179]

See also @AY Mod's forum rules:

 

Simon

 

 

 

[robertcwp]

20 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

What an ambiguous mess!  It would, however, seem to be a reasonable assumption that photographs pre-dating 1939 (fifty years before the new legislation in 1989) are less likely to be protected now.

 

Post 1939, where the date of death of the original photographer is the determining factor (plus fifty or seventy years) and the inheritors are unknown, investigating image copyright becomes a nightmare for the average citizen.

 

Which prompts the question, regarding photographs posted on this forum, about the legal position:  is it the responsibility of the poster to determine whether copyright exists  - and how might that be determined if copyright is not overtly claimed where the image was sourced from by the poster?  Or is it up to the copyright holder to assert their right once it has been posted?  

 

If the latter, presumably the copyright holder can reasonably ask for the image to be removed.  But do they also have an enforceable legal right for financial compensation, and if so how much?  

 

I can envisage the scenario where many images are technically copyrighted, but the inheriting copyright holder is either unaware of this, or has no interest in following it up. 

 

 

 

This issue has been debated repeatedly at length on many forums. From my own experience as a collector of original images, in most cases there is no clue as to who the photographer was and anyone who knew that photographer probably won't have any idea of the images either. In some cases, dealers acquire images from an estate with the contractual transfer of the rights, which the dealer then passes to the buyer.

[john new]

If I send in the three recent SLS publications for review in BRM do they come to you direct or via the editorial office? If to you can you PM me your address please.

[Tony Wright]

10 minutes ago, john new said:

If I send in the three recent SLS publications for review in BRM do they come to you direct or via the editorial office? If to you can you PM me your address please.

PM sent John,

 

Please send them to me. I can't guarantee that every new publication I receive will be reviewed, but at least one from every publisher who provides new material is.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

[Tony Wright]

A couple of nicely-painted GWR locos........................

 

 

I built this Alan Gibson 'County' tank for one of Geoff Haynes' customers and Geoff has now painted it.

 

 

Somewhat incongruously running on Little Bytham.

 

 

And an O Gauge 97XX. This was started by the late Geoff Brewin, and completed and painted by Geoff. 

 

 

[Theakerr]

A signaling technical question because one answer would make life easier to synchronize the signals with the trains.  I suspect the answer will not be that one I would prefer but it doesn't hurt to ask the collective knowledge of the thread.  So on a through passenger train scheduled to stop at a station would the home starter always be set against it (and not pulled off until the signalman was ready), or if the block was clear could the home starter signal be set to clear with the process of stopping controlled by the driver knowing he had to stop at that station?  Fingers crossed!