Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I agree with all you say Andrew and I can understand your lack of enthusiasm. Putting so much time and effort into something like Leicester and reaching a stage where the chances of it being exhibited again are slipping away must be pretty disheartening.

 

It is one of the reasons why I have chosen to model secondary lines in a period that very few other people model. Building smaller but more achievable layouts with shorter trains and having models that are quite unlike the vast majority of what I see at shows have all led to a renewal of my enthusiasm.

 

I wouldn't want to embark on a long term major project now, at the tender age of 61! 

 

Good evening Tony, 

 

when I was a little lad  my mother would sometimes work late shift as a nurse and my Father would have the night out. This was ostensibly  so that I spent some time with my  Aunty Mary who would baby sit. She was the properties Mistress at one of the big theatres in town. Her house was always full of Swords and masks and other paraphernalia.  Inevitably, I use to end up backstage helping to put on the show, what a playground. Possibly because of this, I really enjoy exhibiting and exhibitions, I like the preparation, the packing up, the going, the setting up, the doing etc, I must have sawdust in my blood, that I will miss. 

 

As far as being disheartened, the attitude of some people towards the layout was pretty disheartening, after I had been 'coned' into getting involved. However, The effort put into LSGC dose have its own rewards, I reached the goals I set for myself and exceeded what I said I would do and never let anybody down, or went back on my word. What ever the future holds, I can be quite happy with what I have done.
 

[t-b-g]

7 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Tony, 

 

when I was a little lad  my mother would sometimes work late shift as a nurse and my Father would have the night out. This was ostensibly  so that I spent some time with my  Aunty Mary who would baby sit. She was the properties Mistress at one of the big theatres in town. Her house was always full of Swords and masks and other paraphernalia.  Inevitably, I use to end up backstage helping to put on the show, what a playground. Possibly because of this, I really enjoy exhibiting and exhibitions, I like the preparation, the packing up, the going, the setting up, the doing etc, I must have sawdust in my blood, that I will miss. 

 

As far as being disheartened, the attitude of some people towards the layout was pretty disheartening, after I had been 'coned' into getting involved. However, The effort put into LSGC dose have its own rewards, I reached the goals I set for myself and exceeded what I said I would do and never let anybody down, or went back on my word. What ever the future holds, I can be quite happy with what I have done.
 

 

You should be! The layout remains one heck of an achievement and you certainly played a big part in that.

 

We used to have a team of 8 when we exhibited Narrow Road and we needed 4 people to take Tickhill out. As the years passed by, we lost one or two of the older crew and a few others felt that it was getting to be hard work.

 

Then I discovered that taking a small layout, 2 people and one car, gave me all the same fun of exhibiting with a fraction of the hassle of organising lots of people and transport.

 

Nowadays I find that a well designed layout with some fairly intricate operating can give me all the satisfaction I need plus it can entertain people for a while. They will never be "show stoppers" like LSGC but they do give me just the same buzz as the bigger layouts.

Edited July 7, 2021 by t-b-g
To add content

[Headstock]

9 hours ago, Clem said:

Hi Andrew

In some ways I could have forecast this reply. Knowing your previous work, very little is a simple reproduction of a kit - probably why I asked. You always seem to go that extra mile (in some cases a few miles) to produce a model that is both accurate and looks the part to my eye.

You discussion on the FWTT is spot on to my way of thinking about running a layout. Considering the effort I've put in over the years I spend so much more time building than operating mainly because, without a WTT, there's no framework to build an authentic operating schedule on. You can deduce some things from photos but it's still just a well-informed guess and probably only a partial truth. For example, I have a picture of the beer train at Bulwell Common south with a B16 piloting a K2 coming in from the spur as the K2 had stalled on the sharp, tightly curved spur and the B16 had gone down to assist. I deduce from that that in all probability, the train changed engines at Bulwell with the York engine taking over there. But without the WTT it is just a guess. For me a 1954 or 1955 FWTT would be a game changer.

 

Evening Clem,

 

I'm not super up on the beer trains from (Midland?) can you spell out the route please. Wouldn't the loco change be in the GC FWTT?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Headstock

[Clem]

16 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Clem,

 

I'm not super up on the bear trains from (Midland?) can you spell out the route please. Wouldn't the loco change be in the GC FWTT?

Evening Andrew,

Certainly. The GN route to Burton-on-Trent was via Derby, Eggington Junction and then via the North Staffs (GN had running powers) to Burton where the line crossed the Midland on an overbridge (although there was a connection at Horninglow) and into the GN sidings at Hawkings Lane. The GN sidings there connected up to Burton's Brewery lines. I think the Burton-York beer train left Burton at around 6-30pm and comprised of open wagons containing barrels, vans, many shock-absorbing, and flat wagons carrying road hauled tanker trailers. It turned on to the GC at Basford and Bulwell (Basford North). There were also a significant amount of traffic between Colwick and Burton.

I think there is every reason to expect the loco change to be in the GC WTT. Probably around 7-30pm. I'd be very interested if you can find it.

[SP Steve]

1 hour ago, Clem said:

Evening Andrew,

Certainly. The GN route to Burton-on-Trent was via Derby, Eggington Junction and then via the North Staffs (GN had running powers) to Burton where the line crossed the Midland on an overbridge (although there was a connection at Horninglow) and into the GN sidings at Hawkings Lane. The GN sidings there connected up to Burton's Brewery lines. I think the Burton-York beer train left Burton at around 6-30pm and comprised of open wagons containing barrels, vans, many shock-absorbing, and flat wagons carrying road hauled tanker trailers. It turned on to the GC at Basford and Bulwell (Basford North). There were also a significant amount of traffic between Colwick and Burton.

I think there is every reason to expect the loco change to be in the GC WTT. Probably around 7-30pm. I'd be very interested if you can find it.

 From 14 June - 19 September 1954 Freight WTT:

 

618 FO 6.15 Burton - York

 

Basford North 7.24

Bulwell Common 7.29

Annesley South Junction 7.41

Annesley Yard Arr 7.45

Annesley Yard Dep 8.10

 

Locos changed at Annesley Yard

 

From 13 Jun - 18 Sep 1955 Freight WTT:

 

618 FO 6.18 Burton - York

 

Basford North 7.24

Bulwell Common 7.26

Annesley South Junction 7.38

Annesley Yard Arr 7.45

Annesley Yard Dep 8.10

 

Locos changed at Annesley Yard

 

 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Clem said:

Evening Andrew,

Certainly. The GN route to Burton-on-Trent was via Derby, Eggington Junction and then via the North Staffs (GN had running powers) to Burton where the line crossed the Midland on an overbridge (although there was a connection at Horninglow) and into the GN sidings at Hawkings Lane. The GN sidings there connected up to Burton's Brewery lines. I think the Burton-York beer train left Burton at around 6-30pm and comprised of open wagons containing barrels, vans, many shock-absorbing, and flat wagons carrying road hauled tanker trailers. It turned on to the GC at Basford and Bulwell (Basford North). There were also a significant amount of traffic between Colwick and Burton.

I think there is every reason to expect the loco change to be in the GC WTT. Probably around 7-30pm. I'd be very interested if you can find it.

 

There you go Clem, now you will have to model it!

 

The question is, had the B16 been sitting on Annesley shed since arriving from York or had it come up from Woodford?

 

Here are two scenarios. B16's have been photographed on early afternoon coal runners. The shed sitters having been purloined by Annesley for a quick run to Woodford and back before returning to York later in the day. The second scenario is that not all York Woodford fast freights had balanced return workings, so that a York B16 would work back north via a Woodford - Leicester, or Nottingham ordinary passenger train service. The loco would eventually connect with a York bound fast freight off Annesley, one of these fast freight could be your bear train.

 

Our own bear train, was the Park Royal  York Guinness train. Worked by Woodford locomotives (usually K3) from Park Royal to Woodford and York locomotives (V2 B16) from Woodford to York. Unfortunately, our Guinness train was never finished by the person building  it. Quite a shame, as it was pretty cool looking with all those road rail tankers.
 

[bbishop]

42 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

There you go Clem, now you will have to model it!

 

The question is, had the B16 been sitting on Annesley shed since arriving from York or had it come up from Woodford?

 

Here are two scenarios. B16's have been photographed on early afternoon coal runners. The shed sitters having been purloined by Annesley for a quick run to Woodford and back before returning to York later in the day. The second scenario is that not all York Woodford fast freights had balanced return workings, so that a York B16 would work back north via a Woodford - Leicester, or Nottingham ordinary passenger train service. The loco would eventually connect with a York bound fast freight off Annesley, one of these fast freight could be your bear train.

 

Our own bear train, was the Park Royal  York Guinness train. Worked by Woodford locomotives (usually K3) from Park Royal to Woodford and York locomotives (V2 B16) from Woodford to York. Unfortunately, our Guinness train was never finished by the person building  it. Quite a shame, as it was pretty cool looking with all those road rail tankers.
 

Were the B16s black, brown or even grizzly!  Bill

[robertcwp]

6 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Plate 85 of Power of the Duchesses shows 46242 in black with the early crest albeit the lining is LMS post war style

 

Plate 85 shows 46247 City of Liverpool not 46242 City of Glasgow. It appears to be in the version of LMS post-war black without the boiler bands, unlike the image of 6242 in Plate 84 (pre-nationalisation). So far as I am aware, 46247 was the only one to carry LMS black with the cycling lion emblem.

 

[robertcwp]

Picking up on some earlier posts, Leicester South GC is one of my favourite exhibition layouts and one I have spent hours watching at shows. It would be disappointing not to see it again but I can understand the challenges of exhibiting such a large layout. I'm glad I made the effort to go to Shipley a few years ago in spite of a strike by Northern to see the layout for what may well have been the final time.

 

Bournemouth West is also excellent and I have only seen it twice, so if it disappears too, that would be most regrettable, but I suspect similar issues apply as with Leicester South. 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Were the B16s black, brown or even grizzly!  Bill

 

Paddington you silly.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I wouldn't want to embark on a long term major project now, at the tender age of 61! 

Don't blame you. I was only 58 when I started mine...

[Tony Wright]

21 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

When I was a kid, I use to marvel at how railway modelers recreated the past. Imagine my shock when I got seriously involved with the hobby and discovered that most of it was made up! Oh no, I thought, I've already done my Sci Fi phase, with Daleks fighting Dinosaurs down at the local station. There must be something better than this. Fortunately, I discovered that there was just as much work involved in making it up as there was in going for greater accuracy, why would you not?

 

Dose it matter? I would say yes. When it stops mattering, even geographically diverse layouts all start to look the same. I would argue that this had already occurred at pre pandemic exhibitions. I think that is important in steam age layouts at least, even BR layouts, to recognize that the Midland mainline didn't look like the East coast mainline, nor did either look  like that little route to the West. Each had their own unique identity that went way beyond the loco spotter blinkers.

 

With regard to LB, I personally would never attempt to model the East coast mainline in the manor that I have the GCLE. It's just too big and too passenger train orientated. Even with a layout the size of LB, you have to chuck out 80% of the trains before you start, so a high level of fidelity goes straight out the window. The lesson to me is quite simple. Chose a prototype that is more compact and bisque and you have a better chance of achieving an accurate result. As an extreme example, throwing your resources at a branch line with two passenger trains and three freight trains a day, becomes not quite so daunting.

 

I can here you stamping your foot and muttering, that would be boring. To me it wouldn't, the making of things is the same, what I would lose interest in very quickly would be trying to construct a generic express, a thing with no real world purpose, I just couldn't see the point. I understand your reasons for doing so but I don't find it very logical. You could have constructed a genuine rake that runs multiple times, one that rather like a broken clock, is at least right some of the time.

 

What I set out to do is much more achievable on the GCLE than the ECML. Its the opposite of LB, lots of bloc freight, with a few individual sparkles and a limited passenger service. Though limited, that passenger service was far more distinct in its individual formations than the equivalents on the ECML, especially if you contrast 1950 with 1957. Even the Pullman trains don't add the same diversity as the interregional services on the GC, with the latter providing a larger percentage of the whole than the Pullmans ever did. If you were doing accurate percentages on LB, you might just find room for half a Pullman train. 

 

The point of all this, is not my brilliance, rather that it is much easier for me to have done what I have done on my chosen prototype than it is on yours. I can retain more and compromise less. My disadvantage is, I need another twenty years to build a replacement for LSGC and the additional trains. By that time, I shall be too old to exhibit and half of RM web will be deceased. In 2041, nobody will want a layout that occupies a real space, nor one without whatever beeping noises and flashing lights are the future fashion, better to stop now?
 

Good morning Andrew,

 

Regarding Bytham's trains, I'm not sure that 'a high level of fidelity goes out of the window', even with the layout's size. I'm sure several (all?) of the highly-skilled team which built them wouldn't agree with your statement. 

 

As for 'accurate percentages' with regard to trains, I honestly think it's impossible to represent every one on a large, main line layout. Unless, say, one chooses just an hour of operations.

 

My own take on it is to choose several trains, and try and represent those. Several are made-up (not in the fictitious sense) using prototype pictures, the formation not appearing in any CWN. I've just looked through a couple of Keith Pirt's wonderful albums, and the variety is amazing. Granted, many of the shots were taken at weekends, but the trains shown actually ran in reality. Rather more accurate than a 'broken clock'? Perhaps they only ran once in that arrangement, but worth modelling nonetheless. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Clem]

30 minutes ago, Headstock said:

There you go Clem, now you will have to model it!

Ha ha! I've already been planning towards it. But the ore train needs completing first. Then there's the passenger stock that needs building including at least one GC non-gangwayed BT and also a ten compartment Third... and of course the station buildings, another bridge, a goods shed and other scenic detail....   But I'm hoping to build the beer train in parallel, the road-rail tankers being particularly important to give the train its individuality. I need to stay healthy for the next few years just to get close!

Andrew, I realise that if it comes down to it and LSG doesn't survive the effects of this virus, that a lot of the motivation and drive for your modelling will disappear. But you have such great talent as a modeller that I hope you find enough space to continue, if only as a secondary pastime to keep these skills intact.

 

Clem

[t-b-g]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Don't blame you. I was only 58 when I started mine...

 

You do have an advantage over me, which buys you several years of modelling time. You have chosen to model a railway which has a good amount of RTR support in a gauge which doesn't mean that you have to build every point. It is entirely sensible for a layout like yours, which would seem never ending if every loco, carriage and wagon plus all the points had to be home made, as mine have to be. It is the price I am happy to pay for modelling the GCR period in EM gauge.

Edited July 8, 2021 by t-b-g
Missed word inserted

[queensquare]

1 minute ago, t-b-g said:

 

You do have an advantage over me, which buys you several years of modelling time. You have chosen to model a railway which has a good amount of RTR support in a gauge which doesn't mean that have to build every point. It is entirely sensible for a layout like yours, which would seem never ending if every loco, carriage and wagon plus all the points had to be home made, as mine have to be. It is the price I am happy to pay for modelling the GCR period in EM gauge.

 

Try pre group SDJR and MR in 2FS - barking mad but Im enjoying the journey!

 

Jerry

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, queensquare said:

 

Try pre group SDJR and MR in 2FS - barking mad but Im enjoying the journey!

 

Jerry

 

What is the old saying? You don't have to be mad but it helps.

 

Being brave (or daft) enough to do something different certainly brings its own challenges but the rewards are there too.

[Chamby]

I would hope that LSGC will still be retained as a club layout even if it is withdrawn from the exhibition circuit.  The same thing is happening locally with a large club exhibition layout, it will remain available for public viewing on club open days.  It’s the logistics that poses the biggest problem… transport, manning, setting up and dismantling are all avoided if you keep it - but don’t take it out!

[St Enodoc]

48 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

doesn't mean that you have to build every point

...but I'm daft enough to do exactly that!

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andrew,

 

Regarding Bytham's trains, I'm not sure that 'a high level of fidelity goes out of the window', even with the layout's size. I'm sure several (all?) of the highly-skilled team which built them wouldn't agree with your statement. 

 

As for 'accurate percentages' with regard to trains, I honestly think it's impossible to represent every one on a large, main line layout. Unless, say, one chooses just an hour of operations.

 

My own take on it is to choose several trains, and try and represent those. Several are made-up (not in the fictitious sense) using prototype pictures, the formation not appearing in any CWN. I've just looked through a couple of Keith Pirt's wonderful albums, and the variety is amazing. Granted, many of the shots were taken at weekends, but the trains shown actually ran in reality. Rather more accurate than a 'broken clock'? Perhaps they only ran once in that arrangement, but worth modelling nonetheless. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

that's not what I said. I said using my methodology on the ECML, then a high degree of fidelity goes out the window. For example there were seven weekday daytime express trains running  in each direction on the GC. Two named trains, three Manchester expresses, one Great Western express and one Southern region express. If I wanted to, I could model the lot! On the east Coast route 80% of passenger trains by necessity are straight out the window. As you can see, it is not ''impossible to represent everyone'' on a large, mainline layout.

 

If I was doing the percentages on the GC mainline expresses, I could nock that down to one named express in each direction, one or two Manchester expresses, a northbound Western region express and a southbound Southern region express. That would be four expresses, each with unique features running in each direction and losing nothing as regards representation. I think 8 expresses, 70 or 80 carriages, say 8 locomotive, plus a couple of spares, is enough for most modellers to build, or buy one of the trains nowadays. This has nothing to do with criticising anybody's modelling, I don't know why you would bring that up? To reiterate, its not my brilliance, rather my choice of prototype that allows for greater fidelity.

 

How many express trains ran on the ECML? Fifty, a hundred. How do you chop them down, inevitably in the long history of ECML layouts, the culling is massively skewed towards Pullmans and named expresses, with the majority of unsung formations excised, or represented by a single generic rake or two. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Headstock

[t-b-g]

21 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

...but I'm daft enough to do exactly that!

 

All credit to you for doing so! I hadn't realised that you were making them all. Fair play to you and please consider that part of my comment "null and void".

[St Enodoc]

21 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

All credit to you for doing so! I hadn't realised that you were making them all. Fair play to you and please consider that part of my comment "null and void".

No worries Tony! I learned how to make points when I joined Leeds MRS as an impoverished student in 1976 and quickly realised not only that it was a darned sight cheaper but that the results were better looking than Peco or Formoway, which was still around - just, and that I could build any formation that I wanted to. Since then I've never bought a ready made point (I still use copperclad in 00 - I've never "graduated" to chaired pointwork or to EM or P4). I don't build plain track though. Life's too short for that!

[t-b-g]

8 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

No worries Tony! I learned how to make points when I joined Leeds MRS as an impoverished student in 1976 and quickly realised not only that it was a darned sight cheaper but that the results were better looking than Peco or Formoway, which was still around - just, and that I could build any formation that I wanted to. Since then I've never bought a ready made point (I still use copperclad in 00 - I've never "graduated" to chaired pointwork or to EM or P4). I don't build plain track though. Life's too short for that!

 

For most projects I am quite happy with copperclad too. Unless it is a small layout with only a handful of points. I can (if I rush, which doesn't happen often) make 4 or 5 straightforward copperclad points in a day. With chaired track, that goes down to one and a bit. On a big layout, that is a big difference. The latest layout has all the track built using chairs because it is fairly small and I am building it to the old 18mm EM track gauge, so nothing commercial was available. I am glad it is only 8ft long!

 

I always tell myself that if copperclad was good enough for Roy Jackson, it is good enough for me.

 

Narrow Road has all copperclad points and it even fooled one of the operators who was sure it was chaired and didn't believe me when I told him.

[Headstock]

 

Is there anything more exciting than a rake of hoppers in the world of model railways? Don't all rush to answer. My two new plastic hoppers have received their white metal ultra buffers and are ready for a good wash. Also nearing completion is a Bradwell brass hopper, currently on temp wheels and awaiting an ID. Three new hoppers arrived this morning, delayed by being sent to the wrong town yesterday, courtesy of Royal Mail. I probably should of got some axleboxes at the same time, I shall see what I can make up.

 

 

[Clem]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Is there anything more exciting than a rake of hoppers in the world of model railways? Don't all rush to answer. My two new plastic hoppers have received their white metal ultra buffers and are ready for a good wash. Also nearing completion is a Bradwell brass hopper, currently on temp wheels and awaiting an ID. Three new hoppers arrived this morning, delayed by being sent to the wrong town yesterday, courtesy of Royal Mail. I probably should of got some axleboxes at the same time, I shall see what I can make up.

 

 

Hi Andrew,

Can I ask where are you sourcing your kits from. I'm still waiting on three coming in which I ordered some time ago via Eileens.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Clem said:

Hi Andrew,

Can I ask where are you sourcing your kits from. I'm still waiting on three coming in which I ordered some time ago via Eileens.

 

Certainly Clem,

 

I thought it a bit mean to order all five, so I went for three and left two for someone else. I figured that by the time I had completed the first two and the new three, there would be more available if required. Get in fast and happy hoppering.

 

https://www.derails.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=127&product_id=1451

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Headstock
RE do