RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2021 8 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Andy, I take your points, but to me it illustrates the 'folly' of trying to represent all the trains in the actual WTT by using individual carriages/vehicles more than once. By doing so, mixing and matching, turning things round and actually handling stock too much, the final running of a train is compromised, especially because of a mixture of weird and wonderful couplings. I do not tolerate trains separating on LB, and my coupling system allows vehicles to be both pulled and pushed, at high speed if necessary. Handling of stock is minimised (reducing the chance of accidental damage) and any vehicle will couple to any other (but, only one way round, of course). To really represent the full WTT on the ECML in the summer of 1958 I'd have to build a fiddle yard at least five times bigger than the one I've got (100+ roads, with two trains in many), increase the number of carriages/wagons/vans by at least the same factor, hope to live long enough to build them (I do have enough locos) and earn a great deal more money to fund it all. In a word; impossible! Regards, Tony. Tony, I think the word ‘folly’ is a bit strong. I really enjoy the research for and putting together of each individual train and when I’m running them at home with time to fettle each rake it all works fine ( maybe on the second or third circuit) as I think the videos on my Gresley Jn thread show. When I’m running Gresley Jn for guests I just use the trains already set up in the fiddle yard. And I generally give them all a practice run first. This generally works very well, although I do admit to having an occasional derailment. Not many, but more than one sees on LB. What clearly is folly is trying to put them together in an ‘away’ layout and expecting them to work first time. Or trying to buy and store enough stock to run the whole lot without re-using any coaches. I think that, given my interest in recreating each train, using my Mark 1s multiple times is only sensible. After all one Mark 1 SK is much like another! Andy 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Sanderson Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: I can confirm that, Paul, I think that's why my EM A2/1 was so (relatively) cheap! I couldn't believe it when I won it for £120! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2021 A lot of people think that "EM" gauged wagons can't be turned back into "OO" wagons..or rather they can't be bothered to do so. Only place where people seem to pay decent prices for EM locos is via the EM Gauge Society I have a few oddments left from Carlisle sales in EM.. I may convert them to 00 to be able to sell them.. Baz 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said: Seems to be a very common problem with buying second hand kits. I often wonder whether the owner has decided to put them in a safe place such as a folder or drawer. Then forgot about them or passed away. I've got about half a dozen with missing instructions but with the kit being complete. Thankfully not kits that are difficult. There's a thread in the Modelling section at the moment asking for instructions for a DJH CR 812 0-6-0. Jason We get a huge number of requests for instructions for our kits, I have no idea why they don't just put them back in the box, what they do do with them is a complete mystery to me. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2021 40 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: I can confirm that, Paul, At one show about three years ago, a trader was trying to sell some rather attractive kit-built wagons and vans, in EM Gauge. Despite their only being priced at about £3.00 each, they didn't move. I saw one chap pick one up and ask 'Why are they so cheap? Ah, EM Gauge, no thanks'. Next day, I converted them to OO, and they all flew - for a much better price. Could it be that, almost by definition, EM Gauge modellers (and, especially, P4 modellers) tend to be more self-reliant and make/modify things for themselves? So, why buy the work of others, when you can do it yourself? That said, at £3.00 each..................... By contrast, could it be that most OO modellers are RTR-reliant, and just happy to buy stuff? RTR-reliant inasmuch as some won't buy an OO loco or item of rolling stock if the tension-lock couplings have been removed? Regards, Tony. This is where bargain-hunters like me can win, on eBay and elsewhere. I once bought a job lot of 40-odd wagons - Airfix (kits & RTR), Mainline, Bachmann, Parkside and others - for I think, about £80 and I had to drive about an hour each way to collect from the seller; no problem. What I got was about 50% EM but with lots of spare OO wheels supplied, almost all had been converted to 3-link or screw couplings and the kits had been assembled and painted at least as well as anything I could achieve. Having re-fitted all the OO wheels I then sold the EM wheels on eBay for at least £20, so effectively I purchased a full/scale-length 1950s freight train for less than £2/wagon. Rob 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, thegreenhowards said: Tony, I think the word ‘folly’ is a bit strong. I really enjoy the research for and putting together of each individual train and when I’m running them at home with time to fettle each rake it all works fine ( maybe on the second or third circuit) as I think the videos on my Gresley Jn thread show. When I’m running Gresley Jn for guests I just use the trains already set up in the fiddle yard. And I generally give them all a practice run first. This generally works very well, although I do admit to having an occasional derailment. Not many, but more than one sees on LB. What clearly is folly is trying to put them together in an ‘away’ layout and expecting them to work first time. Or trying to buy and store enough stock to run the whole lot without re-using any coaches. I think that, given my interest in recreating each train, using my Mark 1s multiple times is only sensible. After all one Mark 1 SK is much like another! Andy I certainly don't have fixed sets on my own layout, which is not based on a real location. My interest is in the stock and in how trains evolved over time - hence why the period moves forward in time gradually. I move stock around a lot so it has to be compatible and adaptable. It generally works well and occasional problems are dealt with easily. On Retford, where Sandra appointed me as Carriage Superintendent - she offered Carriage and Wagon Superintendent but I baulked at wagons, about which I know very little - whilst the trains are in theory in fixed sets, there has been a lot of shuffling about as stock has been added over the last year, with more to come as the next project is to create an additional train which needs to be mostly crimson and cream. The small issue is that most of the stock I have available is maroon so the plan is to substitute a maroon carriage for a crimson and cream one in several existing sets to release stock for the additional one. When stock is shuffled, I like to run a train round at least three times to check it all works OK. My fun over the past week has been de-ribbing the roofs of five Bachmann Mark 1s, plus six of Sandra's that were already on the layout. All now done, thankfully. Edited July 17, 2021 by robertcwp Correction 7 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 hours ago, robertcwp said: Thanks, I had it in mind that Heaton engines tended to go north from Newcastle but clearly not always. Evening Robert, In my experience trainspotting at Newark and Grantham from 1958-63, Heaton locos tended to be more common than Gateshead locos. I saw all but 3 A4s and 2 of those 3 were Gateshead based. Heaton A1s, A2s, A3s, V2s were all pretty common I believe - I saw all the Heaton A1s and A3s and all be one of the A2s. The V2s were slightly less common in the South (possible because long distance fast fitted freights ran more at night?) and I only saw about half of those. I probably visited Grantham and Newark 10-15 times each during that period. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2021 3 hours ago, thegreenhowards said: Tony, I think the word ‘folly’ is a bit strong. I really enjoy the research for and putting together of each individual train and when I’m running them at home with time to fettle each rake it all works fine ( maybe on the second or third circuit) as I think the videos on my Gresley Jn thread show. When I’m running Gresley Jn for guests I just use the trains already set up in the fiddle yard. And I generally give them all a practice run first. This generally works very well, although I do admit to having an occasional derailment. Not many, but more than one sees on LB. What clearly is folly is trying to put them together in an ‘away’ layout and expecting them to work first time. Or trying to buy and store enough stock to run the whole lot without re-using any coaches. I think that, given my interest in recreating each train, using my Mark 1s multiple times is only sensible. After all one Mark 1 SK is much like another! Andy What like every A3 Pacific is alike? Carriages are fascinating, so much variety. All mine are correctly numbered, bogied, and braked. And yes the WCML train on cover of BRM is annoying. A BR1 vacuum braked full brake on an air braked train. All air braked full brakes are 100mph bogie fitted. 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 3 hours ago, thegreenhowards said: Tony, I think the word ‘folly’ is a bit strong. I really enjoy the research for and putting together of each individual train and when I’m running them at home with time to fettle each rake it all works fine ( maybe on the second or third circuit) as I think the videos on my Gresley Jn thread show. When I’m running Gresley Jn for guests I just use the trains already set up in the fiddle yard. And I generally give them all a practice run first. This generally works very well, although I do admit to having an occasional derailment. Not many, but more than one sees on LB. What clearly is folly is trying to put them together in an ‘away’ layout and expecting them to work first time. Or trying to buy and store enough stock to run the whole lot without re-using any coaches. I think that, given my interest in recreating each train, using my Mark 1s multiple times is only sensible. After all one Mark 1 SK is much like another! Andy 'Folly' does imply being foolish, Andy, Something I'm more than prone to be at times. As you know, I honestly can't see the point in trying to replicate all the trains on the ECML on a day, at a particular period. I know the research is interesting and it's a rather noble aim, but the consequences are not something I''ll ever tolerate - derailments, trains separating in action, etc, etc. Agreed, we witnessed three derailments on Bytham on Wednesday. One was caused by taking MALLARD at too high a speed round curves (I take responsibility for that because I'd previously being showing off), why a V2 came off the road at the end of a straight bit of fiddle yard track is beyond me, and GREAT NORTHERN suffered a displaced bogie tyre (it's been checked, and it's fine now). Not one train derailed; backwards or forwards, at speed or at a crawl. From what I've witnessed of making up trains with 'reusable' carriages, the results are always compromised; the same effect, trains separating, derailing and running poorly. Often it's the result of incompatible couplings and, often, different makes of wheels (next time, I won't chuck the RTR ones away, but give them to you). Also, gangways/corridor connectors need to be perfectly-matched, otherwise they over-ride and cause derailments, particularly on reverse curves . How do you achieve this with so much mixing and matching? Because LB's trains (apart from the pick-ups) are fixed-rake, and are never separated, they can be fine-tuned to run 'perfectly'. I accept that, on the real railway, stock could be marshalled anywhere and changed from time to time, but, in the main, real railways didn't have endemic derailments and parting trains. My compromise (folly?) is to only have a representation of some of the trains one might have seen (only 60). What I won't compromise on is the running. I want LB to run like Retford; nothing less will be tolerated. Regards, Tony. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted July 16, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Tony Wright said: I can confirm that, Paul, Could it be that, almost by definition, EM Gauge modellers (and, especially, P4 modellers) tend to be more self-reliant and make/modify things for themselves? So, why buy the work of others, when you can do it yourself? That said, at £3.00 each..................... By contrast, could it be that most OO modellers are RTR-reliant, and just happy to buy stuff? RTR-reliant inasmuch as some won't buy an OO loco or item of rolling stock if the tension-lock couplings have been removed? Regards, Tony. I think there is some truth in that Tony, but there is also the statistical effect. If 2000 people come through the door of an exhibition (non specialist) probably one half are just looking - families, arm chair modellers etc. That leaves 1000. Of these how many are EM modellers? 50? I think that might be optimistic but let's say it's about right. Then how many are looking to expand their stock - bearing in mind that at a non-specialist show they are probably not expecting to find anything in EM anyway. So some may not even have looked at anything "rtr". Then you have the question of whether the stock in question fits their era and area. EM modellers almost by definition are likely to be much more selective than the general buyer. Very quickly you get to a very small potential buying audience. 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 7 hours ago, MJI said: Kaydee are not too inaccurate for carriages, just a bit big Anyone tried the n-gauge version of the Kadee. I keep thinking I should get a couple and see but never get round to it. I also like the ROCO coupling again turned upside down 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted July 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2021 8 hours ago, Michael Edge said: We get a huge number of requests for instructions for our kits, I have no idea why they don't just put them back in the box, what they do do with them is a complete mystery to me. Don't you know there's a shortage of toilet paper? 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted July 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2021 8 hours ago, Northmoor said: This is where bargain-hunters like me can win, on eBay and elsewhere. I once bought a job lot of 40-odd wagons - Airfix (kits & RTR), Mainline, Bachmann, Parkside and others - for I think, about £80 and I had to drive about an hour each way to collect from the seller; no problem. What I got was about 50% EM but with lots of spare OO wheels supplied, almost all had been converted to 3-link or screw couplings and the kits had been assembled and painted at least as well as anything I could achieve. Having re-fitted all the OO wheels I then sold the EM wheels on eBay for at least £20, so effectively I purchased a full/scale-length 1950s freight train for less than £2/wagon. Rob I've done a similar thing in reverse. I've bought made-up kits (doesn't matter what) from shows for the equivalent of say GBP2-3 each because they have Jackson or other metal wheels fitted. I pull those out and replace them with old plastic ones that I've never thrown away, then sell the wagons at the next show for the equivalent of say GBP2-3 each... 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 May I thank Tony for his hospitality on Wednesday. I enjoyed the banter, loved the layout (especially as I was put on the fiddle yard, but don't quite understand the kick back sidings). Sorry I haven't replied earlier, I have been preparing for an on-line Safeguarding course which will start in an hour! Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 6 hours ago, St Enodoc said: Don't you know there's a shortage of toilet paper? Only in Australia apparently. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted July 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2021 31 minutes ago, grahame said: Only in Australia apparently. There is a joke in there somewhere using the phrase " down under" but I don't want to go for it. 1 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2021 On 16/07/2021 at 08:17, Chamby said: A vote for Kadee’s: they also allow you to simply lift coaching stock in and out of rakes. I find that the Hornby/Roco one’s are best for complete rakes that need to be pushed as part of their operating cycle... they have no ‘slack’ to take up when being propelled around curves, so retain better alignment. I meant to reply earlier to this but I forgot in the swarm of coupling posts! I agree that Kadees are great although even they don’t always want to couple on a curve. What put me off them was a combination of the price and the difficulty of fitting them to stock without NEM pockets and particularly to the Bachmann mark 1s with pockets in the wrong place. Last time I looked they were about £5 a pair compared to £1 for the magnets. I have about 200 coaches, so that amounts to a significant difference in price. Perhaps it was a false economy, but I do find the magnets very good 99% of the time. Andy 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted July 17, 2021 Author Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 hour ago, bbishop said: May I thank Tony for his hospitality on Wednesday. I enjoyed the banter, loved the layout (especially as I was put on the fiddle yard, but don't quite understand the kick back sidings). Sorry I haven't replied earlier, I have been preparing for an on-line Safeguarding course which will start in an hour! Bill It was my pleasure Bill, And, thank you Andy and Mike as well for your collective hospitality at lunchtime. When you next come, I'll show you how the kick-back sidings work. You certainly mastered the main fiddle yard panel in no time. In fact, most do. Because it's intuitive and simple, if a visitor is intelligent (I don't think I've ever had any dimwits), then the panel is quickly mastered. It's just an electric pencil and on/off switches on a mimic panel. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 21 minutes ago, Dragonboy said: Well toilet paper is traditionally used down under But probably not for its intended use. ;-) 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 I fitted Hunt magnetic couplings to a rake of Olivia (Hattons) BOC 100T tank wagons a while ago. I had constant derailment problems caused by the tension locks bunching up on curved down hill sections. The direct replacement plug in couplings solved the problem immediately, and also look better. The only downside is a decouple if the train is snatched. Start gently and all is OK. Agree though with Kadees, most of my O gauge N American stock is so fitted. Problems Zero. I get mine from Gaugemaster at competitive prices. No plug in, all are fitted with BA nuts and bolts !! Brit15 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted July 17, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 17, 2021 One loco which might be very difficult to sell is this..................... The Little Engines O1, built by Ron Goult himself. The O4/7 and the O4/8 went straight away (I knew a friend would want them) because here's no RTR example of those. This, however, an RTR O1................. A very good one, from Hornby. All I've done with this example is to modify it to produce the one with the unique handrail configuration at the front end, fit a proper coupling, renumber it and weather it. Hornby O1s (brand new) seem to go for around £100.00. Rather than let the one from the collection go for the same price (it's got a Portescap), I've bought this myself - for £200. Daft in a way, when the Hornby one is probably better, but there's something about an all-metal loco................. I've replaced the incorrect, 12-spoked pony wheels, fitted the statutory 'wiggly pipes' and just dry-brushed weathered it. Certain areas were 'burnished' with a cotton bud to represent prototype staining, and I think it's turned out all right - certainly more-natural than the previous satin black body and shiny motion. As a 'layout loco', I think it's fine. I've wrestled with my conscience slightly at paying only £200.00 (the others went for more), but, with a 'superior' RTR equivalent available, what chance for a kit like this to realise even its component parts? Twice the price of the RTR equivalent for something not as good-looking? I rather like it, however................... 23 4 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said: I meant to reply earlier to this but I forgot in the swarm of coupling posts! I agree that Kadees are great although even they don’t always want to couple on a curve. What put me off them was a combination of the price and the difficulty of fitting them to stock without NEM pockets and particularly to the Bachmann mark 1s with pockets in the wrong place. Last time I looked they were about £5 a pair compared to £1 for the magnets. I have about 200 coaches, so that amounts to a significant difference in price. Perhaps it was a false economy, but I do find the magnets very good 99% of the time. Andy From what I remember, stock not wanting to couple up on curves is prototypical in many cases. The solution in model form lies in designing out the need to do so. I use Kadees only at the ends of sets and on loose vehicles, with inverted Roco or Hornby R8220 in between, which optimises the operation of CCUs. Where there is no NEM pocket, try the #146 Kadee coupler. Self contained, a doddle to fit (usually), and two thirds the price of the plug in sort. They look better too, as there is less of them visible. John 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 Safeguarding course passed! Now for Medicine management. Bill 3 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted July 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, thegreenhowards said: I meant to reply earlier to this but I forgot in the swarm of coupling posts! I agree that Kadees are great although even they don’t always want to couple on a curve. What put me off them was a combination of the price and the difficulty of fitting them to stock without NEM pockets and particularly to the Bachmann mark 1s with pockets in the wrong place. Last time I looked they were about £5 a pair compared to £1 for the magnets. I have about 200 coaches, so that amounts to a significant difference in price. Perhaps it was a false economy, but I do find the magnets very good 99% of the time. Andy About £5 for 4. Bachmann MK1s are easily fixed with the Keen systems replacement close coupling mount which both brings the NEM box to the right height and brings the coaches closer together. Edited July 17, 2021 by MikeParkin65 1 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2021 2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said: About £5 for 4. Bachmann MK1s are easily fixed with the Keen systems replacement close coupling mount which both brings the NEM box to the right height and brings the coach’s closer together. The once and for all solution to the Bachmann Mk1 CCU short (and high) comings. Worth investing the extra just to prevent the swear box overflowing. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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