Wright writes.....

[Barry Ten]

17 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

You've been a great help in buying loads of things off me over the last few months. I have a big box of your stuff here ready for collection. You've paid for it all. When would you like to come over?

 

Best regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Many thanks, Tony. I'll drop you an email about a possible visit in the next couple of months.

 

best,

 

Al

[MJI]

5 hours ago, jrg1 said:

I am always intrigued by What Ifs?

What if WW2 had not happened, and the electrification of various lines had gone ahead on the LNER?

What if the LMS had introduced a fleet of Turbomotives?

What if the LMS and LNER had co-operated on diesel development?

What if the GWR had decided to import German hydraulic locomotives?

What if BR had developed a Standard version of the GWR 47xx class?

What if BR had been allowed to import proven American diesel locomotives, instead of the duds they were lumbered with under the Modernisation plan? 

What if the ECML was electrified after completion of the the WCML?

 

Actually in general British diesels were not duds. The us diesels were under powered for their size.

 

Look at the EE powered machines. The LMS prototypes, the 37s. They were anything but duds.

[thegreenhowards]

33 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

Actually in general British diesels were not duds. The us diesels were under powered for their size.

 

Look at the EE powered machines. The LMS prototypes, the 37s. They were anything but duds.

I agree with those examples and the small Sulzers were also good. However, there were too many duds and over weight outdated designs (40s and peaks). Some duds are to be expected. The big problem was the speed we went from pilot scene locos to production not giving time to weed out the duds.

 

I’m glad we went British. If we hadn’t we wouldn’t have had wonders such as the Deltics and the great variety of diesel traction which made 1970s/80s train spotting so rewarding and I probably wouldn’t be in the hobby.

 

Andy

[Northmoor]

There is a whole "Imaginary Locomotives" thread elsewhere covering this.  The discussion does tend to be a bit circular; I recommend delving into it if you haven't already, before the next 200 pages of Tony's thread turns into a debate into whether Mallets or Garratts were the future of steam freight locos, 9Fs should have survived into the 1970s and hundreds of new combinations of GW boiler, tanks/tenders and wheel arrangements/

[jrg1]

6 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I agree with those examples and the small Sulzers were also good. However, there were too many duds and over weight outdated designs (40s and peaks). Some duds are to be expected. The big problem was the speed we went from pilot scene locos to production not giving time to weed out the duds.

 

I’m glad we went British. If we hadn’t we wouldn’t have had wonders such as the Deltics and the great variety of diesel traction which made 1970s/80s train spotting so rewarding and I probably wouldn’t be in the hobby.

 

Andy

The low-rated types-class 20 and 37 with proven engines were a good investment.

High speed untried classes such as the 17, 21 and 22 were a disaster.

CIE could have told BR how useless the Crossley engine in the class 28 was. 

The myriad of different types for similar duties was a waste of investment-it may have been great for the modeller-but trying to run a railway with unreliable motive power is a different story.

Imported Alco-Goodwin off the shelf products could have covered most of BR's requirements with 8-12-16 cylinder configurations of the same engine and drive trains.

It is interesting to see the 59 and 69 class being rebuilt with American technology, and the American engined 66, 68 and 70 in service-a commentary on UK motive policy 

 

[john new]

26 minutes ago, jrg1 said:

The low-rated types-class 20 and 37 with proven engines were a good investment.

High speed untried classes such as the 17, 21 and 22 were a disaster.

CIE could have told BR how useless the Crossley engine in the class 28 was. 

The myriad of different types for similar duties was a waste of investment-it may have been great for the modeller-but trying to run a railway with unreliable motive power is a different story.

Imported Alco-Goodwin off the shelf products could have covered most of BR's requirements with 8-12-16 cylinder configurations of the same engine and drive trains.

It is interesting to see the 59 and 69 class being rebuilt with American technology, and the American engined 66, 68 and 70 in service-a commentary on UK motive policy 

 

But without the foreign exchange options in the finance to pay for them, plus the knock on impact on UK industry IF buying from the USA, that was a political non-starter. The mistake was not in buying British but in buying untested designs in multiple; however, then as now post-Brexit, BR was struggling with labour (cost of & recruitment shortages) for steam. The problem of hindsight is it often fails to recognise the contemporary conditions within which the decisions were taken. British firms were making diesels for export so it isn’t that there was not home based expertise.

Edited August 26, 2021 by john new

[MikeParkin65]

10 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

 

Here is my photo-montage of Chapelon's 1946 engine, and one might note that aesthetically it varies somewhat from British practice. 

 

 

 

Still better looking than the various Thompson Pacifics

[Denbridge]

7 hours ago, jrg1 said:

I am always intrigued by What Ifs?

What if WW2 had not happened, and the electrification of various lines had gone ahead on the LNER?

What if the LMS had introduced a fleet of Turbomotives?

What if the LMS and LNER had co-operated on diesel development?

What if the GWR had decided to import German hydraulic locomotives?

What if BR had developed a Standard version of the GWR 47xx class?

What if BR had been allowed to import proven American diesel locomotives, instead of the duds they were lumbered with under the Modernisation plan? 

What if the ECML was electrified after completion of the the WCML?

If WW2 had not happened, I think the end of steam would have happened a lot earlier. The railways continued designing and building steam locomotives because they had no choice. There wasn't the money to move forward with modernisation following the ravages of war.

[MJI]

59 minutes ago, jrg1 said:

The low-rated types-class 20 and 37 with proven engines were a good investment.

High speed untried classes such as the 17, 21 and 22 were a disaster.

CIE could have told BR how useless the Crossley engine in the class 28 was. 

The myriad of different types for similar duties was a waste of investment-it may have been great for the modeller-but trying to run a railway with unreliable motive power is a different story.

Imported Alco-Goodwin off the shelf products could have covered most of BR's requirements with 8-12-16 cylinder configurations of the same engine and drive trains.

It is interesting to see the 59 and 69 class being rebuilt with American technology, and the American engined 66, 68 and 70 in service-a commentary on UK motive policy 

 

 

 

Problem was they were too heavy and not powerful enough, they were heavier and less powerful than LMS 10000.

 

As to engine if we could have made enough the EE 10x12 range would have been perfect for us.

 

Lower rated Sulzers fine as well. As to the 1CoCo1s that was a simple way to keep axle loadings down while we learnt to do Diesels.

 

Anytime anyone says early US Diesels I bring up the 37s, they have no answer.

[MJI]

8 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

If WW2 had not happened, I think the end of steam would have happened a lot earlier. The railways continued designing and building steam locomotives because they had no choice. There wasn't the money to move forward with modernisation following the ravages of war.

 

 

Without WW2

 

The world steam speed record race would have taken speeds over 130mph, and would have been between the LNER A4s and the German 05. I think LNER would have held it as Mallard could have gone faster.

 

The ECML would then have gone straight to electrification. 90% sure 1500v.

 

Diesels would be mainly EE designs I think due to 10000/1/10201/2/3, or bought in German DHs

 

As to 25kv, no idea when that would have come around

[30368]

55 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Still better looking than the various Thompson Pacifics

 

That's a bit harsh Mike, I rather like the look of the Thompson pacifics and, I should add for clarities sake, Sir N Gresley's masterpieces.

 

Funny though!

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[ecgtheow]

35 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

If WW2 had not happened, I think the end of steam would have happened a lot earlier. The railways continued designing and building steam locomotives because they had no choice. There wasn't the money to move forward with modernisation following the ravages of war.

 

What IF the railway companies in GB had decided as the Swiss Federal Railways did to go electric in the early part of the last century? Well the UK would now have reliable punctual clean trains used much more than they are now as a result. Admittedly the geography of Switzerland & the lack of coal in the country, which had increased dramatically in price at the time,  played a major part in the decision.

 

William

[Northmoor]

18 minutes ago, ecgtheow said:

 

What IF the railway companies in GB had decided as the Swiss Federal Railways did to go electric in the early part of the last century? Well the UK would now have reliable punctual clean trains used much more than they are now as a result. Admittedly the geography of Switzerland & the lack of coal in the country, which had increased dramatically in price at the time,  played a major part in the decision.

 

William

The famous reliability of Swiss railways (and even more so, the Japanese) has very little to do with the form of traction, but everything to do with operational discipline and national culture.  No-one in Japan would delay a train by holding a door open for their mate, "Who's just coming".  They expect things to be on time, so they turn up on time.  In Britain, we assume we'll be delayed getting to the station or the train will be late, so what does it matter if we delay it a bit more?  It is a vicious or virtuous cycle, depending on what country you are in.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

If WW2 had not happened, I think the end of steam would have happened a lot earlier. The railways continued designing and building steam locomotives because they had no choice. There wasn't the money to move forward with modernisation following the ravages of war.

 

Even more so if WWI had not happened, as there were electrification schemes in various stages of advancement in the early 1910s - York-Newcastle, Derby-Manchester, Preston-Carlisle among the main line schemes in rough order of ready-to-go-ness, along with numerous suburban schemes.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Derby-Manchester,

OHLE through Monsal Dale! Luvverly!

[cctransuk]

11 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

OHLE through Monsal Dale! Luvverly!

 

If that was meant to imply disapproval; I'd sooner OHLE and the possibility that the railway might still be there.

 

I certainly don't think that OHLE was unacceptably intrusive in the Longdendale valley - but then that railway succumbed to the 'rationalisation' of BR, despite electrification.

 

Electrification, with the notable exception of the SR / BR(SR), was always going to be 25kv. once the technology was developed. There would have had to be far more abandonments / re-equipment if widespread electrification had been adopted earlier.

 

CJI.

[ecgtheow]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

The famous reliability of Swiss railways (and even more so, the Japanese) has very little to do with the form of traction, but everything to do with operational discipline and national culture.  No-one in Japan would delay a train by holding a door open for their mate, "Who's just coming".  They expect things to be on time, so they turn up on time.  In Britain, we assume we'll be delayed getting to the station or the train will be late, so what does it matter if we delay it a bit more?  It is a vicious or virtuous cycle, depending on what country you are in.

Operational discipline & culture go hand in hand in Switzerland, where I have lived for the last 30 years, but the trains went electric, which are inherently more reliable than steam, because gradients are often steep, much steeper than in the UK & the big electric company wanted a large corporate customer.

 

However, you are right to state that culture plays a big part in the success of any efficient organisation, but the traction does make a significant difference to how the trains perform. I frequently changed long distance trains late on winter  nights at stations in the middle of the Swiss mountains with a 3 minute arrival & departure interval. I never missed one.

 

William

[MikeParkin65]

18 minutes ago, ecgtheow said:

Operational discipline & culture go hand in hand in Switzerland, where I have lived for the last 30 years, but the trains went electric, which are inherently more reliable than steam, because gradients are often steep, much steeper than in the UK & the big electric company wanted a large corporate customer.

 

However, you are right to state that culture plays a big part in the success of any efficient organisation, but the traction does make a significant difference to how the trains perform. I frequently changed long distance trains late on winter  nights at stations in the middle of the Swiss mountains with a 3 minute arrival & departure interval. I never missed one.

 

William

German railways (East and West) both retained steam for longer than the UK. No personal experience but I'm led to believe that German railways have always been considered to be 'efficient'?

[TrevorP1]

51 minutes ago, ecgtheow said:

Operational discipline & culture go hand in hand in Switzerland, where I have lived for the last 30 years, but the trains went electric, which are inherently more reliable than steam, because gradients are often steep, much steeper than in the UK & the big electric company wanted a large corporate customer.

 

However, you are right to state that culture plays a big part in the success of any efficient organisation, but the traction does make a significant difference to how the trains perform. I frequently changed long distance trains late on winter  nights at stations in the middle of the Swiss mountains with a 3 minute arrival & departure interval. I never missed one.

 

William

 

My only experience of non UK train travel - apart from one single short journey in France - has been in Switzerland and Italy. The services I used were so punctual you could have used them to set your watch.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

The services I used were so punctual you could have used them to set your watch.

 

Many years ago I was at a Munich S-Bahn station - out in the country - waiting for the train. The digital display clock stopped at the time the train was due in then re-started as it left. Proof that in Germany the trains run more accurately than the clocks...

[ecgtheow]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Many years ago I was at a Munich S-Bahn station - out in the country - waiting for the train. The digital display clock stopped at the time the train was due in then re-started as it left. Proof that in Germany the trains run more accurately than the clocks...

One would expect German trains to be as efficient as the reputation the country enjoys, but they are not. The long distance trains are often very late & as a result connections are missed. I have spent many cold unhappy hours on Mannheim station having missed the connection to Basel after my train from Frankfurt Airport was late. One problem is that the schedules are too tight with very tight connections between connecting trains which may have travelled long distances & several hours before arriving at the station for a connection. The other problem is that Germans aren't Swiss!

 

William

[Dylan Sanderson]

Tony... do you remember when I was at Little Bytham we were talking about fencing, and I point out that you didn't have any wire in your post and wire fencing?

 

Now I can see why! I've only done 8 inches and I'm fed up! 

[Tony Wright]

50 minutes ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

Tony... do you remember when I was at Little Bytham we were talking about fencing, and I point out that you didn't have any wire in your post and wire fencing?

 

Now I can see why! I've only done 8 inches and I'm fed up! 

Good evening Dylan,

 

There was actually a little bit of wire fencing on Little Bytham. It was about 18 inches long, and nobody noticed that it was there, nor, in the main, that the rest was missing. It got damaged during my taking a photograph, and I've never reinstated it. From most viewing distances the wire fencing it's invisible, anyway. The eye just 'reads' the posts, and the brain believes it's there. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Just to report that a mate and I dismantled the railway of a deceased modeller today. It was built into its room, with no thought for its ever being removed. The boards were scrapped, but most other things were recovered.

 

I'll be selling nothing of what was on it (all RTR). I'll just phone up Elaine and see what she offers.

[t-b-g]

11 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Dylan,

 

There was actually a little bit of wire fencing on Little Bytham. It was about 18 inches long, and nobody noticed that it was there, nor, in the main, that the rest was missing. It got damaged during my taking a photograph, and I've never reinstated it. From most viewing distances the wire fencing it's invisible, anyway. The eye just 'reads' the posts, and the brain believes it's there. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I recall doing the run of fencing along the front edge of Retford, from near the end of Platform 1 to where the GC line goes off stage. From memory it was 121 posts, each one drilled 5 times and fine wire fed through. Again, from memory, it was a single strand of multistrand wire. It was not one of the most enjoyable tasks I carried out! I had doubts about how long it would last, being right along the front edge but it seems to have survived well so far.