Tony Wright Posted September 2, 2021 Author Share Posted September 2, 2021 Thanks for all the comments on the GWR 4-4-0 I showed a picture of yesterday. I'm delighted I don't model the GWR! 3 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 15 hours ago, Craigw said: I think it is an Atbara, fitted with the wrong number. It has the tall vacuum stand at the front along with the portholes which is consistent with a loco in early 1920s condition. I would suggest it should have the tall safety valve cover though. The plating over of the portholes, low vacuum pipe stand and the fitting of heavier tender springs are things that started to occur from around 1925. Regards, Craig W I agree. Atbara, basically a City with a smaller Bulldog type boiler (well that is how we used to make Atbara)/ With that livery the number should be in the 4120 - 4148 ( there were others but they were rebuilt as Cities) and with either nameplates on the splasher or combine name/number on the cabside depending on the loco. Mike Wiltshire 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 14 hours ago, sandra said: I don’t think it’s a Flower, they had deeper frames and the brake rigging was inside the wheels. I know this because I am building a model of a Flower.This is a photo of the nearly finished but unpainted loco. The rear footsteps are different as well. Many Atbaras have a sweeping back of the cab steps, on the rest and the Flowers they are straight down like this one. Lot 125 3373-3382 4120-4128 originally had different cabs 125 3383-3392 4129-4138 http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_atbara_flower.htm Useful guide for those interested in the minefield of GWR 4-4-0s. http://www.gwr.org.uk/no440s.html Jason 2 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted September 2, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 2, 2021 7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: The rear footsteps are different as well. Many Atbaras have a sweeping back of the cab steps, on the rest and the Flowers they are straight down like this one. Lot 125 3373-3382 4120-4128 originally had different cabs 125 3383-3392 4129-4138 http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_atbara_flower.htm Useful guide for those interested in the minefield of GWR 4-4-0s. http://www.gwr.org.uk/no440s.html Jason What an extraordinary selection. Thanks Jason. It rather debunks the myth that all GWR locos look the same. Though some GWR locos show great elegance in design, a few of those outside-framed GWR 4-4-0s aren't very pretty (in my opinion). I've struggled to find many images of GWR outside-framed 4-4-0 loco models in my photographic collection, but here are a few. An obvious favourite from Bachmann. And, the same firm's 'Dukedog' Sandra Orpen brought a kit-built 'Dukedog' to run on Little Bytham. Phil Crathorn built a fine O Gauge GWR 4-4-0 to run on his model of Dollgelly. And I found this lovely little pair in 2MM FS on Llangerisech. There must be others, including some big ones in the Waterman Collection, but they're on another computer. Regards, Tony. 26 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted September 3, 2021 Author Share Posted September 3, 2021 On 31/08/2021 at 23:06, Headstock said: My apologies, I missed your post first time around. I'm a little concerned about all the 'proper' wheel manufactures these days. Without them, stock variety could be reduced by two thirds. There would be little point in making anything and most of us would be reduced to being consumers, collectors and Wishlisters only. There are some much more reliable RTR wheelsets available these days, at least for rolling stock. However, even the most modern RTR wheelsets tend to be slightly overscale and can cause all sorts of clearance issues. Good morning Andrew, Speaking from my own experience, I've always replaced RTR wheelsets, even with regard to the more-recent offerings from the likes of Bachmann (Mk.1s) and Hornby (wagons/vans), with Jackson/Romford/Markits equivalents; and, certainly RTR loco bogies/ponies. I've never found any problems with the three types I've mentioned, though that's not the case with others I've used. Some little time ago, Andy Sparkes (The Green Howards) came round for some photography, and after I'd done this we ran some Bytham locos. 60113 was fairly belting round and then performed the most spectacular crash on a single slip! The reason? One of its Gibson bogie wheel tyres had come of its rim, jamming in the crossing 'V'. Those wheels must have been in place for near on a quarter of a century, but still came loose after all this time. Though the Gibson wheels are admittedly finer, any locos/stock fitted with them have been replaced with the Jackson/Romford/Markits types. I cannot put up with tyres coming loose and back-to-backs shifting. This is not a 'dig' at other wheels than Jackson/Romford/Markits, merely my own findings down the years of operating exhibition layouts and now Little Bytham. Performance is paramount. Regards, Tony. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post Barry Ten Posted September 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted September 3, 2021 Two for the price of one. A City (left) and a Bird (right), both built from Branchlines kits. I have a Bulldog still to do. 19 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Andrew, Speaking from my own experience, I've always replaced RTR wheelsets, even with regard to the more-recent offerings from the likes of Bachmann (Mk.1s) and Hornby (wagons/vans), with Jackson/Romford/Markits equivalents; and, certainly RTR loco bogies/ponies. I've never found any problems with the three types I've mentioned, though that's not the case with others I've used. Some little time ago, Andy Sparkes (The Green Howards) came round for some photography, and after I'd done this we ran some Bytham locos. 60113 was fairly belting round and then performed the most spectacular crash on a single slip! The reason? One of its Gibson bogie wheel tyres had come of its rim, jamming in the crossing 'V'. Those wheels must have been in place for near on a quarter of a century, but still came loose after all this time. Though the Gibson wheels are admittedly finer, any locos/stock fitted with them have been replaced with the Jackson/Romford/Markits types. I cannot put up with tyres coming loose and back-to-backs shifting. This is not a 'dig' at other wheels than Jackson/Romford/Markits, merely my own findings down the years of operating exhibition layouts and now Little Bytham. Performance is paramount. Regards, Tony. Never had any problems with current Bachmann or Hornby wheelsets on Coaches/Wagons , they are all metal with a plastic centre bush . They dont look too bad with a drop of paint thereon and are hardly visible compared to Loco wheelsets. They run true etc. Hornby Bogies we have been there before or numerous occasions. If and when the current Hornby Thompson Bogie wheels become available ? , they will be worth buying for me at least. I have dozens of Gibsons on my stock never lost a rim ever , I always test them before fitting and never found a loose one on any (so far!). No idea of Markits prices, or if you can even get them at the moment ? Gibsons are turning into a nightmare to obtain at the moment as well. To change even a few wheels , is far from cheap anymore. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Andrew, Speaking from my own experience, I've always replaced RTR wheelsets, even with regard to the more-recent offerings from the likes of Bachmann (Mk.1s) and Hornby (wagons/vans), with Jackson/Romford/Markits equivalents; and, certainly RTR loco bogies/ponies. I've never found any problems with the three types I've mentioned, though that's not the case with others I've used. Some little time ago, Andy Sparkes (The Green Howards) came round for some photography, and after I'd done this we ran some Bytham locos. 60113 was fairly belting round and then performed the most spectacular crash on a single slip! The reason? One of its Gibson bogie wheel tyres had come of its rim, jamming in the crossing 'V'. Those wheels must have been in place for near on a quarter of a century, but still came loose after all this time. Though the Gibson wheels are admittedly finer, any locos/stock fitted with them have been replaced with the Jackson/Romford/Markits types. I cannot put up with tyres coming loose and back-to-backs shifting. This is not a 'dig' at other wheels than Jackson/Romford/Markits, merely my own findings down the years of operating exhibition layouts and now Little Bytham. Performance is paramount. Regards, Tony. Good afternoon Tony, fortunately, I have never had any wheels fail on a locomotive or a piece of rolling stock in service. I do have a strict testing policy on what is fitted, resulting in the rejection of Gibson, Jackson, Romford and Markits way before they do any serious running. Gibson use to be bad, then they got good and now seem to be having problems again, seven out of sixteen axles is unsupportable. Markits driving wheels are not so 'fit and forget' as they used to be and the availability of all types of wheel seems to have gone into serious decline. My last batch of driving wheels were faulty and required a six month Wait for stock, there wasn't a hope in hell of getting them to fit on the axles, and no chance of replacements available from the manufacturer. Fortunately, I was able to source an older but unused set from a friend, they went straight onto the same axles without any bother! I don't have anything like the amount of RTR stock as yourself, so replacing RTR wheelsets is not such a priority. If they pass the test, they can stay. If they don't, or they look ugly, they are gone. The issue is quite stark, unreliable quality and the lack of availability of wheels makes kit building impossible, unless you can turn your own wheels or except the 'problems' associated with RTR wheels. 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Roger Sunderland Posted September 3, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2021 Hi Tony perhaps I could ask how you obtain your never ending supply of Markits wheels? I have been trying for 2 weeks now to get a set for a B1 (comet frames) but no one answers the phone, or rings back. I also need a set for a black 5. Like you I won’t use Gibson wheels, have always used Romford/Markits, but, sadly, no retailer stocks them now and I can’t get through to the manufacturer. Very frustrating! Wizard sometimes have certain types but won’t supply live/ insulated, just insulated. I fear that this issue may be having more of a detrimental effect on people’s ability to build kits than is realised. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 A brief look at the website a moment ago suggest to me that Scalelink wheels are still available. I'm well aware that they are generic, not esoteric, and have plastic spokes that do not flare into the rims, hence they simply won't be good enough for some with refined tastes, bottomless wallets, and a habit of using a lot of heat when soldering near the wheels, but they are self quartering, with a reasonably narrow tread and shallow flange, they fit Markits axles and they are easily tapped to take Markits crankpins. Having failed to develop any burning enthusiasm for Gibson driving wheels, and on account of the greatly increased and seemingly still increasing price of Markits wheels a couple of years ago, I stocked up on Scalelink wheels to cover my anticipated needs. I'm glad that I did, as they seem to have become less of a bargain to buy new since that time, and I'm not sure if long term continuing Scalelink production is assured. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 6 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Andrew, Speaking from my own experience, I've always replaced RTR wheelsets, even with regard to the more-recent offerings from the likes of Bachmann (Mk.1s) and Hornby (wagons/vans), with Jackson/Romford/Markits equivalents; and, certainly RTR loco bogies/ponies. I've never found any problems with the three types I've mentioned, though that's not the case with others I've used. Some little time ago, Andy Sparkes (The Green Howards) came round for some photography, and after I'd done this we ran some Bytham locos. 60113 was fairly belting round and then performed the most spectacular crash on a single slip! The reason? One of its Gibson bogie wheel tyres had come of its rim, jamming in the crossing 'V'. Those wheels must have been in place for near on a quarter of a century, but still came loose after all this time. Though the Gibson wheels are admittedly finer, any locos/stock fitted with them have been replaced with the Jackson/Romford/Markits types. I cannot put up with tyres coming loose and back-to-backs shifting. This is not a 'dig' at other wheels than Jackson/Romford/Markits, merely my own findings down the years of operating exhibition layouts and now Little Bytham. Performance is paramount. Regards, Tony. I've only had a tyre come off of a Gibson wheel once. Since then I've always put a couple of drops of cyano at the rear wheel/tyre interface. Seems to have cured that tendency. Personally I prefer to use Ultrascale wheels. But serious planning is required. The time between placing an order can be measured in months. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 56 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said: Hi Tony perhaps I could ask how you obtain your never ending supply of Markits wheels? I have been trying for 2 weeks now to get a set for a B1 (comet frames) but no one answers the phone, or rings back. I also need a set for a black 5. Like you I won’t use Gibson wheels, have always used Romford/Markits, but, sadly, no retailer stocks them now and I can’t get through to the manufacturer. Very frustrating! Wizard sometimes have certain types but won’t supply live/ insulated, just insulated. I fear that this issue may be having more of a detrimental effect on people’s ability to build kits than is realised. Try Roxey. My experience suggests he can get supplies quicker than trying to order direct from Markits. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 28 minutes ago, gr.king said: A brief look at the website a moment ago suggest to me that Scalelink wheels are still available. I'm well aware that they are generic, not esoteric, and have plastic spokes that do not flare into the rims, hence they simply won't be good enough for some with refined tastes, bottomless wallets, and a habit of using a lot of heat when soldering near the wheels, but they are self quartering, with a reasonably narrow tread and shallow flange, they fit Markits axles and they are easily tapped to take Markits crankpins. Having failed to develop any burning enthusiasm for Gibson driving wheels, and on account of the greatly increased and seemingly still increasing price of Markits wheels a couple of years ago, I stocked up on Scalelink wheels to cover my anticipated needs. I'm glad that I did, as they seem to have become less of a bargain to buy new since that time, and I'm not sure if long term continuing Scalelink production is assured. He also turns around orders really fast. Every order I've placed recently has arrived within 2 or 3 days. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted September 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2021 Brian at Branchlines also carries a stock of both Gibson and Markits Jerry 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold zr2498 Posted September 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said: Hi Tony perhaps I could ask how you obtain your never ending supply of Markits wheels? I have been trying for 2 weeks now to get a set for a B1 (comet frames) but no one answers the phone, or rings back. I also need a set for a black 5. Like you I won’t use Gibson wheels, have always used Romford/Markits, but, sadly, no retailer stocks them now and I can’t get through to the manufacturer. Very frustrating! Wizard sometimes have certain types but won’t supply live/ insulated, just insulated. I fear that this issue may be having more of a detrimental effect on people’s ability to build kits than is realised. It might help if Markits were to improve their web site so that there is an easier ordering prodedure. The catalogue is out of date but time to update that would be taken away from the manufacturing. Prices are really not fully known until an enquiry is made and having to call for ordering and payment is time consuming for both customer and supplier. I heard that 1000's of wheels have been produced lately so they are very busy. When I do call and get through it is always a friendly and interesting discussion. Edited September 3, 2021 by zr2498 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted September 3, 2021 Author Share Posted September 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said: Hi Tony perhaps I could ask how you obtain your never ending supply of Markits wheels? I have been trying for 2 weeks now to get a set for a B1 (comet frames) but no one answers the phone, or rings back. I also need a set for a black 5. Like you I won’t use Gibson wheels, have always used Romford/Markits, but, sadly, no retailer stocks them now and I can’t get through to the manufacturer. Very frustrating! Wizard sometimes have certain types but won’t supply live/ insulated, just insulated. I fear that this issue may be having more of a detrimental effect on people’s ability to build kits than is realised. Good evening Roger, I just phone Mark Arscott up (01923 249711). If the phone isn't answered, I try again next day, and so on. I tell him my order, and it arrives within two days. Conversation is always interesting! Regards, Tony. 2 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ian Rathbone Posted September 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted September 3, 2021 On 01/09/2021 at 19:11, TrevorP1 said: I would agree Sandra. Not a Bulldog. I'm not very familiar with the GWR 4-4-0s but I would also say it's a - very fine - model of an Atbara. On 01/09/2021 at 18:37, sandra said: I’m not convinced that this is a Bulldog. It looks like one of the 6’ 8” 4-4-0s. Certainly 3361 was a Bulldog with 5’ 8” wheels but the wheels on this model look too large. To me it looks like an Atbara for it has the high-stepping appearance of these locos. The distinguishing feature is the height of the splashers. In a Bulldog the springs rise above the top of the splashers but on this model the top of the splashers are clearly above the springs because of the need to clear the larger wheels The model is painted in the post first-war livery of plain green but it still has the small circular cab windows which I think may have disappeared pre-war. I wonder what others think? The model has the route disc on the cab side which would put it in the post grouping period, so between 1923 & 1934. I don’t know exactly when the portholes were plated over but Castles were being built with them in 1923. Let’s say it’s about 1925 but the green paint looks very light to me - not ‘bronze’ enough. It was quite a dark green back then. The buffer beams should be ‘China Red’ not the bright red it appears to be, or is that a result of the bright lighting Tony uses? For those who may be interested there is a full description of GWR liveries on my website. Meanwhile here is a really ugly outside frame loco - a scratch-built Kruger in 7mm. Ian R 17 1 3 12 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Sim Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 5 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Good evening Roger, I just phone Mark Arscott up (01923 249711). If the phone isn't answered, I try again next day, and so on. I tell him my order, and it arrives within two days. Conversation is always interesting! Regards, Tony. With the standard swear words and complaining in the middle of every phone call. Great fella he is. Always love a phone call to Markits. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted September 4, 2021 Share Posted September 4, 2021 8 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said: The model has the route disc on the cab side which would put it in the post grouping period, so between 1923 & 1934. I don’t know exactly when the portholes were plated over but Castles were being built with them in 1923. Let’s say it’s about 1925 but the green paint looks very light to me - not ‘bronze’ enough. It was quite a dark green back then. The buffer beams should be ‘China Red’ not the bright red it appears to be, or is that a result of the bright lighting Tony uses? For those who may be interested there is a full description of GWR liveries on my website. Meanwhile here is a really ugly outside frame loco - a scratch-built Kruger in 7mm. Ian R Tender and cab look nice. The smokebox and front bogie too. It is just the bit in the middle which looks like a dog’s dinner. wonderful model though. richard 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Roger Sunderland Posted September 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2021 12 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Good evening Roger, I just phone Mark Arscott up (01923 249711). If the phone isn't answered, I try again next day, and so on. I tell him my order, and it arrives within two days. Conversation is always interesting! Regards, Tony. I’ll keep trying Tony. I have had several conversations in the past, always interesting. May give Branchlines and Roxey a try as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted September 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2021 There seem to be quite a lot of Markits wheels (loco drivers and others) listed on the Wizard Models web site; a few indicated as out of stock but mostly not. On that subject and in view of the comments above on rolling stock wheels, I wondered whether anyone had any experience of using the Wizard Wheels that Wizard Models sells? There seems to be a big range and while I haven't used them myself, the construction appears to be similar to Gibsons. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TrevorP1 Posted September 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2021 15 minutes ago, 31A said: I wondered whether anyone had any experience of using the Wizard Wheels that Wizard Models sells? There seems to be a big range and while I haven't used them myself, the construction appears to be similar to Gibsons. I've used a few sets in coaches over the last couple of years and they seem fine so far. 2 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium SJR Posted September 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2021 55 minutes ago, 31A said: There seem to be quite a lot of Markits wheels (loco drivers and others) listed on the Wizard Models web site; a few indicated as out of stock but mostly not. On that subject and in view of the comments above on rolling stock wheels, I wondered whether anyone had any experience of using the Wizard Wheels that Wizard Models sells? There seems to be a big range and while I haven't used them myself, the construction appears to be similar to Gibsons. I've used Wizard wagon wheels and they are very good. 1 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2021 15 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said: For those who may be interested there is a full description of GWR liveries on my website. Meanwhile here is a really ugly outside frame loco - a scratch-built Kruger in 7mm. Ian, as far as I could see, your website only describes GWR locomotive liveries from 1923. This model of 2601 is in a pre-1906-ish livery with Indian red frames. I wonder, what is your view (and on what evidence) on the colour of the outside faces of the frames of inside-framed engines before 1906 - Indian red or black? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chas Levin Posted September 4, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2021 11 hours ago, 31A said: On that subject and in view of the comments above on rolling stock wheels, I wondered whether anyone had any experience of using the Wizard Wheels that Wizard Models sells? There seems to be a big range and while I haven't used them myself, the construction appears to be similar to Gibsons. I've used the Mansells on a couple of coaches and found them very reliable, very smooth runners and - to my eye - good looking representations too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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