Wright writes.....

[31A]

The Airfix / Dapol "LMS" van body is a model of a van built by BR to LMS pattern, as the vertical stanchions on the sides are made of inverted channel section fixed flat side out whereas those built by the LMS had them with the flat side fixed to the sides.  See pictures of models above and real ones below.

 

BR version:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsvan

 

LMS version:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsvan

 

 

[Leander]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Absolutely! Thanks, '5690' - I think your explanation fits the image perfectly. The idea of a short test run, long enough to warm up the axleboxes, seems entirely logical to me.

 

There was a Wigan Wagon Works though!

 

It's shown on this fascinating map, as posted on '70015's interesting 'Railways around Wigan' thread on this forum. The works seem equally to have been referred to as 'Ince Wagon Works' - 'Wigan Wagon Works' just sounds more jolly! Interestingly, when you Google images of 'Wigan Wagon Works', you just get loads of 1960s pictures of steam locos being scrapped. Is this therefore the (in)famous location of loco scrapping in Wigan? Where the last Duchess to be cut up, 46243, met its demise? Perhaps '70015' can help us out!

 

I'd heard of 'Ince Wagon Works' and especially recall seeing photographs of their loco scrapping activities. I didn't realise that 'Wigan Wagon Works' referred to the self-same place however.

 

I did wonder whether Apollo 15 ever saw the Earlestown - Lostock Hall (and return) working a few miles further south of where I observed it?

[Headstock]

14 minutes ago, 31A said:

The Airfix / Dapol "LMS" van body is a model of a van built by BR to LMS pattern, as the vertical stanchions on the sides are made of inverted channel section fixed flat side out whereas those built by the LMS had them with the flat side fixed to the sides.  See pictures of models above and real ones below.

 

BR version:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsvan

 

LMS version:

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsvan

 

 

 

Good evening Steve, 

 

except on the Wartime LMS plywood vans, were the upright was like the later BR version. This is example is a Dapol body with backdated Parkside BR fruit van sides, on the Parkside LMS clasp brake shoe chassis.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Headstock

[Tony Wright]

More progress on the DJH Raven A2..................

 

 

The smokebox/boiler/firebox and basic cab formed and soldered together.

 

 

And now soldered to the footplate, and the basic body screwed to its frames for the first time.

 

Tomorrow it'll pull its first train - vans? 

 

This is only the fourth loco I've made for myself this year (though this will definitely be sold-on). I've built a couple or so for others, but most of my loco work has been getting over 100 engines built by others to work properly. Thankfully, only a few defeated me.

 

Last year I must have built 20 for myself, judging how quickly my stash of un-built loco kits has had to be replenished. 

 

 

Thanks for all the interesting wagon posts of late. Fascinating! 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Headstock]

7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

More progress on the DJH Raven A2..................

 

 

The smokebox/boiler/firebox and basic cab formed and soldered together.

 

 

And now soldered to the footplate, and the basic body screwed to its frames for the first time.

 

Tomorrow it'll pull its first train - vans? 

 

This is only the fourth loco I've made for myself this year (though this will definitely be sold-on). I've built a couple or so for others, but most of my loco work has been getting over 100 engines built by others to work properly. Thankfully, only a few defeated me.

 

Last year I must have built 20 for myself, judging how quickly my stash of un-built loco kits has had to be replenished. 

 

 

Thanks for all the interesting wagon posts of late. Fascinating! 

 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

a fascinating Beasty in itself, how will you do the corners of the firebox?

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Tony,

 

a fascinating Beasty in itself, how will you do the corners of the firebox?

Good evening Andrew,

 

There appears to be a pair of handed, white metal fillets to perform that function.

 

We'll see.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[bbishop]

19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

This is only the fourth loco I've made for myself this year (though this will definitely be sold-on). I've built a couple or so for others, but most of my loco work has been getting over 100 engines built by others to work properly. Thankfully, only a few defeated me.

 And helped a charity, several families and made many recipients very happy.  Well one Tony.

 

Bill

[LNER4479]

Evening Tony et al,

 

Having now had a bit of time to study the B1 photos you posted earlier, may I be permitted to make a few observations?

 

I'll comment by train class type - you said earlier that 'most were covered' but in fact quite a few key ones were missing. Whatever ...

 

A Class C. Fully fitted therefore? Technically yes but Class C covered both what we might refer to as 'parcels trains' ('... composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements' - hence fully fitted) - in which case it would be signalled (belled) as a 1 - 3 - 1 - OR (as presumably in this case) an express freight ... 'pipe fitted throughout with the automatic brake operative on not less than half of the vehicles' and thus belled as a 3 - 1 - 1. By 1962, the train classification codes had changed from letters to numbers and, according to the revised descriptions introduced that year, this train would become a Class 4 - still carrying the same headcode and the same bell code but with the description changed to '...pipe fitted throughout with the automatic brake operative on not less than 90% of the vehicles.' Either way up, the vehicles all need to be fitted or through piped to qualify for that headcode. From the picture I can immediately surmise that vehicles 1, 3, 5 & 6 are fitted because of the easily visible tie-bar between the axle boxes, fitted to where a vehicle has the (cheaper) 4-shoe push brake arrangement, so as to counteract the pushing force. The alternative (more expensive) 8-shoe clasp brake arrangement doesn't need this feature as the braking is balanced. Many of the BR standard build were - initially at least - fitted with the 4-shoe arrangement (penny-pinching?) and thus have the tie-bars.

Interestingly, the three cattle wagons do appear to be genuinely carrying livestock (marshalled at the front because of a kinder ride for the animals and / or ease of watering? I hear various theories on this from time to time) and each is a different type. Above all, this pic proves that an express freight doesn't always need to be 40-50 wagons in length!

 

We now jump straight to a Class F as none of your pictures Tony showed Class D or E. Pity, as they can be some of the most interesting trains with their 'fitted head' (first third for Class D; first 4 wagons for Class E). There are undeniably some wooden-bodied minerals in this one, certainly wagons 2, 3 and 5 and possibly wagon 8. I note however the clean condition of the loco - which might be a 'fluke' ex-works picture - or pointing to late 1950s? Certainly, the condition of the loco is in stark contrast to the picture above.

Whatever ... running under Code F classifies is as an express freight '... not fitted with the automatic brake'. A bit of an oxymoron really as being non fitted would mean it had a modest maximum speed (at least officially!). I surmise therefore that this is a block train (empties heading back north?), not stopping anywhere en route back to the coalfields. Elsewhere (ie LMR), I'm more used to Code J being used for 'Mineral or empty wagon train' for a block non-fitted train such as this. Would this be more of a custom and practice thing for ECML to use Code F for trains such as this?

 

Class H. I love this train! A lovely, archetypal mix of opens and vans, with some minerals as well, plus the single container wagon so it fits in well with the '90% vans, opens and mineral' maxim that has already been expounded on here by others. Class H is described as through freight '... not running under Class 'C', 'D', 'E' or 'F' headcode which is a bit of a 'catch all'. This is almost certainly running as an unfitted train. I see no axlebox tie-bar nor clasp brake shoe on the leading (sheeted) open wagon. Even if it was through-piped and therefore providing continuity through to the (LMS?) van behind it which IS fitted, that's as far as it would go if I am correct in identifying the third vehicle as a repainted ex-PO wooden-bodied mineral now properly identified as an ex-LNER goods open. Wagons 4 and 5 are further opens, as is wagon 7 (sheeted). Thereafter it's getting a bit indistinct; there appears to be a raft of steel 16T minerals towards the rear.

 

Finally, Class K and this does appear to be some sort of 'pick up', officially described as '... stopping at intermediate stations'. If it's 1962 or later then it's still essentially the same train type, now a Class 9, simply a 'stopping freight train'. Interestingly, the loco appears to be carrying its 'trip' or 'target' number (number 11) on the right hand lamp bracket, a common but by no means universal practice. What's in the wagons and where are they all destined for? Goodness only knows! However, note the 16T steel minerals at that back - they will be for - or from (empties) - local coal sidings / yards. The three in front of them could be steel opens (NOT minerals); the 4 vans are all different types (GW - LMS - BR - SR? A pretty good 'catch' if so).

 

Apologies to any on here who already know all this and probably know it better than me. I find it fascinating, how much can be discerned from study of such photos. There's plenty of traps for the unwary - and I've possibly fallen for one or two - so, happy to be corrected. As you might have detected, I'm actually more interested in how goods wagons were operated rather than their exact diagram number, etc. For those like me interested in the former then I've been reminded that the late, great Andy Rush started a thread on here some years ago, partly on the back of my discussions with him on the subject of goods train operations for Grantham. It's been 4 years since anyone posted on there - perhaps we should reinvigorate it on the back of these recent, fascinating discussions?

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by LNER4479
to include link to goods train operation thread!

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

Try saying that after a glass or or two…

...or with a mouthful of Uncle Joe's Mint Balls.

[St Enodoc]

26 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

A bit of an oxymoron really as being non fitted would mean it had a modest maximum speed (at least officially!).

You've mentioned this almost in passing, Graham, but as you know one important thing was that trains were timed according to their classification. So a "higher" class of train would be timed to run at a higher maximum speed than a "lower" class of train. In turn the timing speed was related to the available brake power and hence the ability to stop at signals where necessary.

[Clive Mortimore]

16 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Evening Tony et al,

 

Having now had a bit of time to study the B1 photos you posted earlier, may I be permitted to make a few observations?

 

I'll comment by train class type - you said earlier that 'most were covered' but in fact quite a few key ones were missing. Whatever ...

 

A Class C. Fully fitted therefore? Technically yes but Class C covered both what we might refer to as 'parcels trains' ('... composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements' - hence fully fitted) - in which case it would be signalled (belled) as a 1 - 3 - 1 - OR (as presumably in this case) an express freight ... 'pipe fitted throughout with the automatic brake operative on not less than half of the vehicles' and thus belled as a 3 - 1 - 1. By 1962, the train classification codes had changed from letters to numbers and, according to the revised descriptions introduced that year, this train would become a Class 4 - still carrying the same headcode and the same bell code but with the description changed to '...pipe fitted throughout with the automatic brake operative on not less than 90% of the vehicles.' Either way up, the vehicles all need to be fitted or through piped to qualify for that headcode. From the picture I can immediately surmise that vehicles 1, 3, 5 & 6 are fitted because of the easily visible tie-bar between the axle boxes, fitted to where a vehicle has the (cheaper) 4-shoe push brake arrangement, so as to counteract the pushing force. The alternative (more expensive) 8-shoe clasp brake arrangement doesn't need this feature as the braking is balanced. Many of the BR standard build were - initially at least - fitted with the 4-shoe arrangement (penny-pinching?) and thus have the tie-bars.

Interestingly, the three cattle wagons do appear to be genuinely carrying livestock (marshalled at the front because of a kinder ride for the animals and / or ease of watering? I hear various theories on this from time to time) and each is a different type. Above all, this pic proves that an express freight doesn't always need to be 40-50 wagons in length!

 

We now jump straight to a Class F as none of your pictures Tony showed Class D or E. Pity, as they can be some of the most interesting trains with their 'fitted head' (first third for Class D; first 4 wagons for Class E). There are undeniably some wooden-bodied minerals in this one, certainly wagons 2, 3 and 5 and possibly wagon 8. I note however the clean condition of the loco - which might be a 'fluke' ex-works picture - or pointing to late 1950s? Certainly, the condition of the loco is in stark contrast to the picture above.

Whatever ... running under Code F classifies is as an express freight '... not fitted with the automatic brake'. A bit of an oxymoron really as being non fitted would mean it had a modest maximum speed (at least officially!). I surmise therefore that this is a block train (empties heading back north?), not stopping anywhere en route back to the coalfields. Elsewhere (ie LMR), I'm more used to Code J being used for 'Mineral or empty wagon train' for a block non-fitted train such as this. Would this be more of a custom and practice thing for ECML to use Code F for trains such as this?

 

Class H. I love this train! A lovely, archetypal mix of opens and vans, with some minerals as well, plus the single container wagon so it fits in well with the '90% vans, opens and mineral' maxim that has already been expounded on here by others. Class H is described as through freight '... not running under Class 'C', 'D', 'E' or 'F' headcode which is a bit of a 'catch all'. This is almost certainly running as an unfitted train. I see no axlebox tie-bar nor clasp brake shoe on the leading (sheeted) open wagon. Even if it was through-piped and therefore providing continuity through to the (LMS?) van behind it which IS fitted, that's as far as it would go if I am correct in identifying the third vehicle as a repainted ex-PO wooden-bodied mineral. Wagons 4 and 5 are further opens, as is wagon 7 (sheeted). Thereafter it's getting a bit indistinct; there appears to be a raft of steel 16T minerals towards the rear.

 

Finally, Class K and this does appear to be some sort of 'pick up', officially described as '... stopping at intermediate stations'. If it's 1962 or later then it's still essentially the same train type, now a Class 9, simply a 'stopping freight train'. Interestingly, the loco appears to be carrying its 'trip' or 'target' number (number 11) on the right hand lamp bracket, a common but by no means universal practice. What's in the wagons and where are they all destined for? Goodness only knows! However, note the 16T steel minerals at that back - they will be for - or from - local coal yards. The three in front of them could be steel opens (NOT minerals); the 4 vans are all different types (GW - LMS - BR - SR? A pretty good 'catch' if so).

 

Apologies to any on here who already know all this and probably know it better than me. I find it fascinating, how much can be discerned from study of such photos. There's plenty of traps for the unwary - and I've possibly fallen for one or two - so, happy to be corrected. As you might have detected, I'm actually more interested in how goods wagons were operated rather than their exact diagram number, etc. For those like me interested in the former then I've been reminded that the late, great Andy Rush started a thread on here some years ago, partly on the back of my discussions with him on the subject of goods train operations for Grantham. It's been 4 years since anyone posted on there - perhaps we should reinvigorate it on the back of these recent, fascinating discussions?

 

Hi Graham

 

To add to your captions of the wagons in the trains.

 

The class C train is mainly made up from Banana Vans, both BR design and BR built LMS design. I don't think they are LMS or even early BR built LMS designed vans as these ran on 9 ft wheelbase underframes and as the loco has overhead warning flashes thephoto is of the 1960s and wagons with a wheelbase under 10 ft were no longer permitted to run in class 4 trains.

 

The class H train, the second vehicle is a LMS van, wartime build with wooden ends and 2 shoe Morton brake. It has been fitted with 4 shoe vacuum brake by BR. The third wagon is a LNER six plank open merchandise on wooden frame, if you look at the door the bottom plank is angled to make loading with a sack barrow easier.

 

I hope this is helpful.

[LNER4479]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

You've mentioned this almost in passing, Graham, but as you know one important thing was that trains were timed according to their classification. So a "higher" class of train would be timed to run at a higher maximum speed than a "lower" class of train. In turn the timing speed was related to the available brake power and hence the ability to stop at signals where necessary.

Indeed, and the 1962 version of the classification codes did indeed quote maximum speeds, 55mph (60mph in certain cases) being the highest, for the Class 4 (ex Class C) 'fully fitted', thence 50mph (class 5), 45mph (class 6), 40mph (class 7) and 35mph (class 8 & 9).

As has already been commented, it was all changing quite quickly in the 1960s with the higher proportion of fitted vehicles, the arrival of Freightliner trains, etc.

[LNER4479]

4 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The class H train, .... The third wagon is a LNER six plank open merchandise on wooden frame, if you look at the door the bottom plank is angled to make loading with a sack barrow easier.

 

I hope this is helpful.

Well done, Clive - sackcloth and ashes time!

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, LNER4479 said:

As has already been commented, it was all changing quite quickly in the 1960s with the higher proportion of fitted vehicles, the arrival of Freightliner trains, etc.

...and increasing numbers of roller bearing-fitted wagons - but we're straying well outside the LB timeframe now!

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Well done, Clive - sackcloth and ashes time!

 

Beaten too it by Clive. I would add that in the same train (class H) is an LNER 5 plank Highfit, a BR Conflat and an LNER 9' wb unfitted van. The wagon at the head in the last photo is a BR Tube (Longfit). Great post though, I love a Banana. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Headstock
add info

[65179]

4 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Steve, 

 

except on the Wartime LMS plywood vans, were the upright was like the later BR version. This is example is a Dapol body with backdated Parkside BR fruit van sides, on the Parkside LMS clasp brake shoe chassis.

 

 

 

 

The Airfix van also has the raised strip along the top of the bodyside which your D2108 van has. Another point of difference between the BR 1/204 van it represents and the LMS D2039.

 

Simon

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 Great post though, I love a Banana. 

Time flies like an arrow.

Fruit flies like a banana.

[APOLLO]

13 hours ago, Leander said:

I'd heard of 'Ince Wagon Works' and especially recall seeing photographs of their loco scrapping activities. I didn't realise that 'Wigan Wagon Works' referred to the self-same place however.

 

I did wonder whether Apollo 15 ever saw the Earlestown - Lostock Hall (and return) working a few miles further south of where I observed it?

 

Might have been a bit early years for me, 1965 on mainly for me. Come think of it I can't remember any New (or refurbished) wagons on the branch (line) either, not to say there weren't any. What I do remember is the many, many wagons, coaches and steam locos that were dragged up the branch and never returned.

 

There were several wagon works around Wigan, a few on the New Springs branch shown on the plan above. Olives was located near Springs Branch shed, marked on the old NLS map as Wigan Wagon Works. This had all gone by my time, replaced (relocated ?) by Central Wagon further up the line by Manchester Rd. The branch line north from here to the old Wigan Coal & Iron works at Kirkless closed in the mid 50's

 

Central Wagon up the line also had several names over the years, a bit of  complicated local history.

 

The brand new EMU / DMU servicing depot is built on the site of the curved sidings just to the north of Springs Branch shed in the plan below.

 

 

Central Wagon alongside Manchester Road didn't exist at the date of this map.

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/index.cfm#zoom=16&lat=53.54086&lon=-2.60370&layers=168&b=1

 

For anyone interested these are two very informative & interesting books

 

 

 

We built 'em in Wigan & scrapped 'em in Wigan !!

 

Brit15

Edited December 29, 2021 by APOLLO

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Evening Tony et al,

 

Having now had a bit of time to study the B1 photos you posted earlier, may I be permitted to make a few observations?

 

I'll comment by train class type - you said earlier that 'most were covered' but in fact quite a few key ones were missing. Whatever ...

 

A Class C. Fully fitted therefore? Technically yes but Class C covered both what we might refer to as 'parcels trains' ('... composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements' - hence fully fitted) - in which case it would be signalled (belled) as a 1 - 3 - 1 - OR (as presumably in this case) an express freight ... 'pipe fitted throughout with the automatic brake operative on not less than half of the vehicles' and thus belled as a 3 - 1 - 1. By 1962, the train classification codes had changed from letters to numbers and, according to the revised descriptions introduced that year, this train would become a Class 4 - still carrying the same headcode and the same bell code but with the description changed to '...pipe fitted throughout with the automatic brake operative on not less than 90% of the vehicles.' Either way up, the vehicles all need to be fitted or through piped to qualify for that headcode. From the picture I can immediately surmise that vehicles 1, 3, 5 & 6 are fitted because of the easily visible tie-bar between the axle boxes, fitted to where a vehicle has the (cheaper) 4-shoe push brake arrangement, so as to counteract the pushing force. The alternative (more expensive) 8-shoe clasp brake arrangement doesn't need this feature as the braking is balanced. Many of the BR standard build were - initially at least - fitted with the 4-shoe arrangement (penny-pinching?) and thus have the tie-bars.

Interestingly, the three cattle wagons do appear to be genuinely carrying livestock (marshalled at the front because of a kinder ride for the animals and / or ease of watering? I hear various theories on this from time to time) and each is a different type. Above all, this pic proves that an express freight doesn't always need to be 40-50 wagons in length!

 

We now jump straight to a Class F as none of your pictures Tony showed Class D or E. Pity, as they can be some of the most interesting trains with their 'fitted head' (first third for Class D; first 4 wagons for Class E). There are undeniably some wooden-bodied minerals in this one, certainly wagons 2, 3 and 5 and possibly wagon 8. I note however the clean condition of the loco - which might be a 'fluke' ex-works picture - or pointing to late 1950s? Certainly, the condition of the loco is in stark contrast to the picture above.

Whatever ... running under Code F classifies is as an express freight '... not fitted with the automatic brake'. A bit of an oxymoron really as being non fitted would mean it had a modest maximum speed (at least officially!). I surmise therefore that this is a block train (empties heading back north?), not stopping anywhere en route back to the coalfields. Elsewhere (ie LMR), I'm more used to Code J being used for 'Mineral or empty wagon train' for a block non-fitted train such as this. Would this be more of a custom and practice thing for ECML to use Code F for trains such as this?

 

Class H. I love this train! A lovely, archetypal mix of opens and vans, with some minerals as well, plus the single container wagon so it fits in well with the '90% vans, opens and mineral' maxim that has already been expounded on here by others. Class H is described as through freight '... not running under Class 'C', 'D', 'E' or 'F' headcode which is a bit of a 'catch all'. This is almost certainly running as an unfitted train. I see no axlebox tie-bar nor clasp brake shoe on the leading (sheeted) open wagon. Even if it was through-piped and therefore providing continuity through to the (LMS?) van behind it which IS fitted, that's as far as it would go if I am correct in identifying the third vehicle as a repainted ex-PO wooden-bodied mineral now properly identified as an ex-LNER goods open. Wagons 4 and 5 are further opens, as is wagon 7 (sheeted). Thereafter it's getting a bit indistinct; there appears to be a raft of steel 16T minerals towards the rear.

 

Finally, Class K and this does appear to be some sort of 'pick up', officially described as '... stopping at intermediate stations'. If it's 1962 or later then it's still essentially the same train type, now a Class 9, simply a 'stopping freight train'. Interestingly, the loco appears to be carrying its 'trip' or 'target' number (number 11) on the right hand lamp bracket, a common but by no means universal practice. What's in the wagons and where are they all destined for? Goodness only knows! However, note the 16T steel minerals at that back - they will be for - or from (empties) - local coal sidings / yards. The three in front of them could be steel opens (NOT minerals); the 4 vans are all different types (GW - LMS - BR - SR? A pretty good 'catch' if so).

 

Apologies to any on here who already know all this and probably know it better than me. I find it fascinating, how much can be discerned from study of such photos. There's plenty of traps for the unwary - and I've possibly fallen for one or two - so, happy to be corrected. As you might have detected, I'm actually more interested in how goods wagons were operated rather than their exact diagram number, etc. For those like me interested in the former then I've been reminded that the late, great Andy Rush started a thread on here some years ago, partly on the back of my discussions with him on the subject of goods train operations for Grantham. It's been 4 years since anyone posted on there - perhaps we should reinvigorate it on the back of these recent, fascinating discussions?

 

Thanks Graham,

 

Electric warning flashes were fitted to ER locomotives from 1961 in the main (though there is evidence that a few operating out of Liverpool Street got them earlier), which is one way of deciding (at least as a watershed) dates. However, some never got them post-'61, so it's only a vague guide.

 

I'll try and find pictures of goods trains with a D or E classification. 

 

The Class F train you describe is very interesting (at least to me) because the picture dates from 1958 (Bytham's period), which means wooden-bodied wagons (some ex-PO?) are 'typical'. Normally (from photographic evidence) such trains (empty and full) carry a lamp at '12' and a lamp at '6' (Class H).

 

The picture was taken at Walton, just north of Peterborough on the ECML. Thus, it could pass through Little Bytham, especially if it's heading back to the Notts pits, where it would branch off left at Grantham. However, were it destined for the Yorkshire pits, it might turn right at Werrington and then head through Spalding, Sleaford and Lincoln to get to Doncaster and beyond. 

 

Looking at the train, I don't think my representation of Down empties is too far off................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[FarrMan]

Very many thanks for the very informative contributions re wagons. One query though. Can someone tell me the difference between an general merchandise open wagon and a mineral wagon, and is a coal wagon the same as a mineral wagon?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Lloyd

[Atso]

21 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Hi Steve,

 

Some lovely work there as usual. Can I suggest the SR van body stl files available through the 2mm Scale Association 3D CAD exchange as an alternative to the chubby NGS kits as you have a 3D printer? Here's a couple of the plywood vans: 

 

produced by @Sithlord75 and printed by my brother at 1:148.  

 

Best wishes, Simon

 

Hi Simon,

 

Many thanks for making me aware of Kevin's van - it looks very good. I'll get in contact with him (I need to anyway as he got in contact with me and I've been remis in not replying yet!).

[TrevorP1]

Just a quick note to say thank you for all the contributions in the wagon discussion. I can’t add much - anything! - but the information and food for thought is much appreciated.

[Headstock]

9 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

The Airfix van also has the raised strip along the top of the bodyside which your D2108 van has. Another point of difference between the BR 1/204 van it represents and the LMS D2039.

 

Simon

 

Well spotted. As I mentioned up thread, I'm not that familiar with the Airfix 'LMS van'. I notice the Dapol one also has the same feature, so neither are true LMS? 

 

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Time flies like an arrow.

Fruit flies like a banana.

 

There are no flute pies on my Bandana.

 

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Well done, Clive - sackcloth and ashes time!

 

Good morning Graham,

 

a couple of things I forgot to mention. Most of the runners on the GC carried class F head codes*, some had class H, they were noted as F* in the working timetable, we referred to them F stars for convenience. The* delineated them from normal class F freights and referred to special instructions that allowed them to exceed 35 mph with impunity, in order to keep to time between Annesley and Woodford and on the Woodford return workings. As you can imagine, grease axle boxes were dispensed with rather quickly on the London extension in the early post war years.  Tales of  Guards strapping  themselves in during high speed docents from Catesby tunnel, with fifty lose coupled minerals on the swing are legendary.

 

I quite certain there is also a Low goods or more likely a Lowfit in the class H. My best guestimate would be, sheeted 5 plank High goods / LMS Vanfit / 6 plank LNER High goods / LNER Highfit /LMS or BR Highfit / BR Conflat / Sheeted High goods / 9' wb LNER Van (unfitted)/ high goods or higfit / Lowfit / Steel Mineral (16T ?) / high goods or higfit / Steel Mineral (16T ?) / unidentified something / van / Many steel mineral wagons.
 

[LNER4479]

24 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

The Class F train you describe is very interesting (at least to me) because the picture dates from 1958 (Bytham's period), which means wooden-bodied wagons (some ex-PO?) are 'typical'. Normally (from photographic evidence) such trains (empty and full) carry a lamp at '12' and a lamp at '6' (Class H).

 

The picture was taken at Walton, just north of Peterborough on the ECML. Thus, it could pass through Little Bytham, especially if it's heading back to the Notts pits, where it would branch off left at Grantham. However, were it destined for the Yorkshire pits, it might turn right at Werrington and then head through Spalding, Sleaford and Lincoln to get to Doncaster and beyond. 

 

Yes, I understand that 1958 is your target year, ie just before Little Bytham station closed. In which case my view would be that you're just about OK to have multiple w/b wagons in such a train ... but they would be disappearing fast. BR had just built 253,000(!) steel 16T coal wagons to replace them - it wouldn't have invested that money to stand by and watch older, less efficient / reliable vehicles carry on trundling by!

 

I would also take issue slightly (because I know much you like a good argument!) with your use of the word 'typical' - given that you hyphenated it, I wonder if you were inviting an argument?(!). That might be a 'fluke' picture and therefore be 'atypical'!? The photographer might have seen it coming (slowly!), clocked those w/b wagons, thought to himself 'blimey, you don't see many of those around any more', raised his camera and 'click' (having let the preceeding nine goods trains go by with scarcely a bat of the eyelid). 60 years on and you've been fooled! For me, if I see the same thing in four separate photos, then I might start to conclude that it was 'typical'. But, the english language being the mistress she is, we might simply be using the word differently...

 

I did consider commenting over what route the train would be taking at Werrington (but perhaps the post was long enough as it was). This is something I've looked into in terms of the coal trains we run on Grantham. We chose only to depict trains which have come off the Nottingham route ... HOWEVER, we might even be wrong there as, although it seems surprising, I've read somewhere that even some of the coal trains from Nottingham carried on heading east, underneath the ECML at Barkston, to join the joint line at Sleaford and thence to New England. This would be in the interests of keeping the ECML clear for the faster traffic. This was with specific reference to the 1930s; I'm not sure whether that still applied in the 1950s.

 

[Headstock]

39 minutes ago, FarrMan said:

Very many thanks for the very informative contributions re wagons. One query though. Can someone tell me the difference between an general merchandise open wagon and a mineral wagon, and is a coal wagon the same as a mineral wagon?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Lloyd

 

Good morning Lloyd,

 

General merchandise wagons tended to emphasise floor space over height in terms of internal volume. A a result, they tended to have longer bodies than coal wagons. One major difference was that they had big doors that could be lowered to form a ramp to facilitate loading by barrow etc. Mineral wagons had small doors, often with a top flap designed to hold back the volume of coal etc. Everything about the mineral wagon was more robust due to the more violent loading and unloading procedures and the way the weight of the load acted on the wagons structure. Mineral wagons often had end doors or bottom doors or both.

 

General merchandise wagons could be used as coal wagons when required but sustained use would damage them rather quickly. Likewise, mineral wagons could be used as General merchandise wagons but loading was harder and they required cleaning out in order to perform these duties. Mineral wagon just refers to other substances that could be carried other than coal, coke for instance. General Merchandise wagons usually had rings to facilitate sheeting and also came in fitted versions for fast freight operations. Fitted mineral wagons were not a thing until much later.

 

I would add that General merchandise wagons usually came in High goods, 5 or 6 plank, 3 plank Medium goods or 1 plank low goods. The fitted versions would be Highfit, Medfit, Lowfit.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Headstock
Clarify a point. Add info