Wright writes.....

[john new]

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

Another fascinating shot and thanks for posting. It shows yet another livery variation that I haven't seen before, with the dumb buffered wagons having "Maltby Main" rather than just "Maltby". If you were hiring them short term, why go for the more expensive full name rather than the cheaper short version? I had wondered if the "Maltby Main" livery was for wagons going out on the main line and the simpler "Maltby" was for internal use but that photo makes me doubt that now.

 

It certainly looks to be during the construction phase. The lack of loaded and empty coal wagons seen in the other view would indicate that coal wasn't being produced yet. Although if you zoom right in, there are a few of the bigger "Maltby Main" wagons in the background behind the GNR wagon at the left hand end of the rake. In the full version of the postcard I posted, the LH winding gear is completed and has its wheels and other gear in place. That would date the photo to probably 1910/11. The first shaft reached the coal seam in June 1910 and the second shaft, still with headgear under construction, reached it in Jan 1911.  

 

.

 

Others will have better knowledge of C20th Yorkshire coal working than me, although previous generations in the family worked it. My prime knowledge is related to Nottinghamshire and the Elizabethan/Stuart (Huntingdon Beaumont) era.

 

A thought as to why there is coal in wagons before the 1912 stated full opening and the colliery was still being sunk/developed. Once the straight down bits of the shaft was completed there would have to be side branches to link with the opposite one for arranging the mine ventilation air flow etc., using the upcast and downcast shafts. Equally minor seams would be breached on the way down to the target level, that coal had to come up and out, it was a saleable resource so why waste it? 
 

Annoyingly I have read recently, and now can't find the actual reference work, the answer to why some Yorkshire pits were named xxxx Main Colliery and some weren't; those that were so designated were all working/targeting the same, main, seam. IIRC that was the Barnsley Seam, a seam of substantial depth and an extremely good coal once extracted.
 

Edited December 29, 2021 by john new
Omitted word added.

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, john new said:

Annoyingly I have read recently, and now can't find the actual reference work, the answer to why some Yorkshire pits were named xxxx Main Colliery and some weren't; those that were so designated were all working/targeting the same, main, seam. IIRC that was the Barnsley Seam, a seam of substantial depth and an extremely good coal once extracted.

 

The Durham Mining Museum website is a moderately good resource for finding out, among other things, what seams a colliery was working. Here's the entry for Maltby Main.

[Iain.d]

I thought it would have been inappropriate to interrupt Tony’s 12 month review of his contribution to this thread with my somewhat less impressive efforts!…that said, I’m happy with what I’ve been able to accomplish over the last year.

 

Overall, I have managed to complete about 10 carriages, seven wagons, a couple of road vehicles, a few motor/gearbox combinations and the strip down, and start to put back together, of a heavily damaged DJH S&DJR 2-8-0.

 

First up I built this 45ft Caledonian Railway Full Brake as a departmental vehicle – a bit of a stretch given the originals were withdrawn in the 1930s, but similar vehicles were converted – another example of realistically similar modelling rather than factually correct? The body work is Worsley Works and the bogies are Fox type, from Roxey Mouldings. I think the roof vents are wrong and should be where gas lamps would have been positioned and I believe there should be some skylights, similar to LNWR vehicles.

 

 

To go with it, I cut down and modified a Ratio Midland Railway Clerestory Brake Third to a 6 wheel 31ft MR carriage. The underframe / step boards are from brass offcuts and scrap, the W irons by Bill Bedford, wheels are Hornby. These two carriages will form part of a breakdown train. I've since learned that the running numbers are at the wrong end!

 

 

I did two LMS D2161 Brake Third Corridor (Porthole) carriages. They’re both recycled 1980s Hornby Stanier models with just about everything replaced other than the roof/main shell and chassis (with replacement vents, Comet sides, scratchbuilt underframe with Comet components, Comet bogies, etc). I think they look okay.

 

 

 

To go in the same formation, an LMS D2159 Corridor Composite (built on a former Airfix RTR donor) and an LMS D2119 Third Corridor (on Hornby, as above).

 

 

An LMS D2162 First Corridor (Porthole) was next – full firsts were rare on the Somerset and Dorset. The only CWN I have found with one listed is in Winter 61/62 Pines Express service (thank you to Robert Carroll’s website) and that’s a BR Mk1. But that’s not to say an LMS one couldn’t have worked the line – there is a photo in Ivo Peters’ The Somerset & Dorset in the Fifties Vol 2 (plate 231) of a former LNER Full First in crimson and cream as the second carriage in the 11.40am (SO) Bournemouth – Derby on 22 August 1959.

 

 

And an LMS D1807 Third Open (from a BSL/Phoenix kit) was completed to go with the Restaurant First shown a few pages back. This was a cheap eBay purchase – it was cheap because it was only the floor pan, sides, ends and roof. I further purchased Comet bogies and scratch built the underframe with Comet components and scratch built the interior from plastic card.

 

 

I also built a Roxey Mouldings GWR A2-3 ‘Clifton Downs’ Trailer. Other than the roofs, I find Roxey kits quite exquisite and a pleasure to build.

 

 

I built this George Norton Johnson 3500 tender to replace the original Triang one that came with this MR 3F (the loco was ‘upgraded’ to a Comet chassis and detailed/chopped about many years ago). I think it works quite well with the loco – the tender vents have to go though as this loco’s tender (or at least not in the images I have) didn’t have these.

 

 

And I civilianised these vehicles from an Airfix RAF Recovery Set. A Thorneycroft Amazon chassis with Coles Mk7 crane and Bedford OX tractor, that I extended the chassis on and built a tray deck for. Bringing this post back around to wagons, the crane will be used to 'lift' containers off wagons at the Midsomer Norton goods yard as the crane (in the goods shed) wouldn't have been able to.

 

 

Happy New Year to one and all, please take care and stay safe.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Edited April 1, 2022 by Iain.d
add a word. Reload photos.

[drmditch]

4 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Overloading, particularly at the outer ends of 9ft merchandise wagons was certainly an issue and no doubt played a part in the move from 9ft to 10ft chassis on at least the LNER wagons. Recreating the effects of overloading can be fun:

 

Simon

 

Thank you. Can you describe how you achieved the 'bent' wagon please.

 

I have contemplated attempting a 9' wb Cattle Wagon sagging at the ends.

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, john new said:

 

 

A thought as to why there is coal in wagons before the 1912 stated full opening and the colliery was still being sunk/developed. Once the straight down bits of the shaft was completed there would have to be side branches to link with the opposite one for arranging the mine ventilation air flow etc., using the upcast and downcast shafts. Equally minor seams would be breached on the way down to the target level, that coal had to come up and out, it was a saleable resource so why waste it? 
 

 

 

A further reason why there might be loaded coal wagons (and from foreign collieries) is that the coal has been imported to power the winding machines.

[thegreenhowards]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

There are two freight 'block' trains which run on Little Bytham.

 

The fish..........

 

 

 

 

 

Two 'swingers' complete the rake (I think up to six behind the brake were allowed - it enabled vans to be added or detached en route without having to split the train). 

 

The whole rake (apart from the first van, which is modified Hornby) was built/painted/weathered by Rob Davey using Parkside kits.

 

 

V2s are popular on it. 

 

Strictly speaking, I've an idea that these dedicated long-wheelbase vans might just be a titchy bit late for Little Bytham, but, heh-ho, Rule 1 and all that. 

 

A similar rake, built by Rob Kinsey, used to run on Stoke...........

 

 

Again, V2-hauled. 

 

The other block train is the cement.....

 

 

This was built/painted/weathered from Airfix/Dapol kits for Stoke by Rob Kinsey.

 

With Stoke Summit sold, he had no further use for it. So, I built a couple of locos for him and it now runs on LB.....

 

 

 

It was an early acquisition. 

 

True to form, since the A2/3s were the only class which could time this heavy train up to Stoke Summit, I generally use them...........

 

 

But, on other occasions....................

 

 

I put a 9F on it.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Tony,

 

I think you’re fine with the fish vans. They were BR built to an LNER design and introduced from 1950 and. The blue spots which some of yours have represented vans fitted with roller bearings for faster running and were converted from the beginning of 1958, so you’re just about OK on them too.

 

I’m less convinced about the A2/3 on the presflos and we’ve discussed this before on this thread a couple of years ago so sorry to raise it again. I know there is a reference in one of Townsend’s books to this but he refers to a one off, albeit in glowing terms. It was also much later, 1963 from memory, by which time the train would have been formed of Cemflos. I believe the block cement traffic started on the ECML in 1960 with Presflos and converted to Cemflos in 1961. So you have a one year window in which to run the Presflos provided you’re prepared to be flexible with your 1958 timeframe. It’s a good looking train so why not. But the regular power for this train was a 9F or a V2 until the 33s took over (1962 or 1963 I think). 
 

Andy

[LNER4479]

I'm all maxed out talking about wagons (for now) so decided to build one instead.

 

Something nice n straightforward...

 

... not too challenging.

 

About 2 hours work this evening to get to this point. Can you tell what approximate representation of a wagon type it is yet?

 

See it running at York, all being well. 

 

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Fish are passengers.

Sardines?

[Bucoops]

5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I'm all maxed out talking about wagons (for now) so decided to build one instead.

 

Something nice n straightforward...

 

... not too challenging.

 

About 2 hours work this evening to get to this point. Can you tell what approximate representation of a wagon type it is yet?

 

See it running at York, all being well. 

 

 

Hmm, *looks* a bit like a single bolster?

[jwealleans]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

*looks* a bit like a single bolster?

 

Given whose kit it looks like it is, that may not be any guide at all.

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, Iain.d said:

I thought it would have been inappropriate to interrupt Tony’s 12 month review of his contribution to this thread with my somewhat less impressive efforts!…that said, I’m happy with what I’ve been able to accomplish over the last year.

 

Overall, I have managed to complete about 10 carriages, seven wagons, a couple of road vehicles, a few motor/gearbox combinations and the strip down, and start to put back together, of a heavily damaged DJH S&DJR 2-8-0.

 

First up I built this 45ft Caledonian Railway Full Brake as a departmental vehicle – a bit of a stretch given the originals were withdrawn in the 1930s, but similar vehicles were converted – another example of realistically similar modelling rather than factually correct? The body work is Worsley Works and the bogies are Fox type, from Roxey Mouldings. I think the roof vents are wrong and should be where gas lamps would have been positioned and I believe there should be some skylights, similar to LNWR vehicles.

 

 

To go with it, I cut down and modified a Ratio Midland Railway Clerestory Brake Third to a 6 wheel 31ft MR carriage. The underframe / step boards are from brass offcuts and scrap, the W irons by Bill Bedford, wheels are Hornby. These two carriages will form part of a breakdown train. I've since learned that the running numbers are at the wrong end!

 

 

I did two LMS D2161 Brake Third Corridor (Porthole) carriages. They’re both recycled 1980s Hornby Stanier models with just about everything replaced other than the roof/main shell and chassis (with replacement vents, Comet sides, scratchbuilt underframe with Comet components, Comet bogies, etc). I think they look okay.

 

 

 

To go in the same formation, an LMS D2159 Corridor Composite (built on a former Airfix RTR donor) and an LMS D2119 Third Corridor (on Hornby, as above).

 

 

An LMS D2162 First Corridor (Porthole) was next – full firsts were rare on the Somerset and Dorset. The only CWN I have found with one listed is in Winter 61/62 Pines Express service (thank you to Robert Carroll’s website) and that’s a BR Mk1. But that’s not to say an LMS one couldn’t have worked the line – there is a photo in Ivo Peters’ The Somerset & Dorset in the Fifties Vol 2 (plate 231) of a former LNER Full First in crimson and cream as the second carriage in the 11.40am (SO) Bournemouth – Derby on 22 August 1959.

 

 

And an LMS D1807 Third Open (from a BSL/Phoenix kit) was completed to go with the Restaurant First shown a few pages back. This was a cheap eBay purchase – it was cheap because it was only the floor pan, sides, ends and roof. I further purchased Comet bogies and scratch built the underframe with Comet components and scratch built the interior from plastic card.

 

 

I also built a Roxey Mouldings GWR A2-3 ‘Clifton Downs’ Trailer. Other than the roofs, I find Roxey kits quite exquisite and a pleasure to build.

 

 

I built this George Norton Johnson 3500 tender to replace the original Triang one that came with this MR 3F (the loco was ‘upgraded’ to a Comet chassis and detailed/chopped about many years ago). I think it works quite well with the loco – the tender vents have to go though as this loco’s tender (or at least not in the images I have) didn’t have these.

 

 

And I civilianised these vehicles from an Airfix RAF Recovery Set. A Thorneycroft Amazon chassis with Coles Mk7 crane and Bedford OX tractor, that I extended the chassis on and built a tray deck for. Bringing this post back around to wagons, the crane will be used to 'lift' containers off wagons at the Midsomer Norton goods yard as the crane (in the goods shed) wouldn't have been able to.

 

 

Happy New Year to one and all, please take care and stay safe.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Good morning Iain,

 

What a fantastic year's work. Please, interrupt all you like!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I'm not aware of any particular problem with the 9' wb on the 6 plank LNER wagons. Examples were still going strong in 1978, fifty years after building. I have examples of bent 9' wb GM wagons  from a cross section of the big four and earlier. The thing the have in common is wooden underframes. The LNER cattle wagons were just a stupid design and another example of a dodgy RTR model.

I have seen one or two pictures of "slightly bent" 6-plankers, but nothing like the way the cattle wagons went. I understand the least atrocious examples of the latter were rebuilt as container flats and lasted into the fifties.

 

The deficiencies in the Oxford model are a great pity; the bits they did get right are rather nicely done and their wagons run well. IMHO, easily worth revisiting the tooling to mirror-image that second side and put it on a 10' wheelbase; the prototypes of those lasted until c1961. That done, they wouldn't compare badly with Hornby's excellent SR ones.

 

John

Edited December 30, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Clive Mortimore]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I'm all maxed out talking about wagons (for now) so decided to build one instead.

 

Something nice n straightforward...

 

... not too challenging.

 

About 2 hours work this evening to get to this point. Can you tell what approximate representation of a wagon type it is yet?

 

See it running at York, all being well. 

 

A LMS built Lowfit ???

[Tony Wright]

December............

 

At the start of the month, another BRM virtual exhibition was staged.

 

My contribution was to present two videos........

 

One was on improving Hornby's products. It included..................

 

 

Hornby's latest Hornby Dublo Princess Coronation (thanks to Geoff Haynes for the lovely finish).

 

 

An alternative to ghastly tension-locks. Yes, Sprat & Winkles are kind-of tension-locks, but much more discreet. 

 

 

Detailing/weathering the latest Mk.1s.

 

 

'Improving' Hornby's gangwayed Gresleys by weathering/varnishing.

 

 

And substantial rebuilds of those gangwayed Gresleys by using MJT sides, castings and bogies.

 

 

And Comet sides on original Hornby Pullmans (painted to perfection by Ian Rathbone), with MJT castings and bogies.

 

 

Weathering Hornby horseboxes (achieved by Richard Wilson).

 

 

And weathering Hornby's non-gangwayed Gresleys.

 

 

A substantial rebuild of an original Hornby tender-drive Britannia (now running on Shap).

 

 

And a detailing/weathering job (by Tom Wright) on a later Hornby Britannia. 

 

None of the actual alterations were 'shown to camera' but they were explained and, in most cases, seen in action. 

 

The programme was seen originally a few weeks earlier during a Hornby presentation regarding good mental health, but it was re-edited for BRM to be more-inclusive. 

 

I was asked to make it because of my own struggles with depression in the past. 

 

 

[dibateg]

My van train assembled as they came out of the boxes, with a disproportionate number of ex LMS vans ( Freightman )  There are a couple of Parkside ex LNER wooden underframe vans, an ex GWR or two ( Parkside ) .I really need to dig out some more BR ones ( mostly Slaters ) ,  and there are several SR vans lurking around on the layout. I really need to find the real rarity  - an ex LNER steel underframe corrugated end van ( Freightman ) , that's sitting on a shelf somewhere. They are all kit built.... and I have a list of the diagram numbers somewhere...

 

The containers definitely need resorting and the 'Door to Door' is stretching the period a little late. I remember them from my childhood.. that's my excuse. The Slaters conflat ( with 8 shoe clasp brakes ) has over 100 parts in the kit, not one you'd build in an hour! Parkside ones can be identified by 4 shoe brakes and the last in the train is an excellent ready to run Dapol example.

 

Wagon variety in O gauge is quite limited and most of my Freightman ones were made up from sets of sides and ABS components. The Freightman stuff is rare now, being long out of production. 

 

Apologies - I think I did get Franks surname wrong, I've not been able to locate my old Freightman catalogue...

 

Regards

Tony

[Tony Wright]

The other BRM virtual exhibition presentation was with regard to the motor/gearboxes I've used...........

 

 

A Tri-ang XO4, still going strong underneath a Wills A2, built nearly 50 years ago!

 

 

A Jepson equivalent (others were made by MW005 and Airfix).

 

This is in my accidentally-damaged scratch-built K4. 

 

 

Which I eventually repaired after over a decade..........

 

 

A D11 and straight drive in scratch-built chassis for a K2.

 

 

A Mashima can and straight drive in a Model Loco 9F (Rob Kinsey's work).

 

I completed this loco this month (see later).

 

 

A D13 and DJH gearbox in an A3.

 

 

Comparative Comet and DJH 'boxes in B1s.

 

 

South Eastern Finecast's simple motor/gear mount in a K3.

 

 

London Road's simple motor/gear mount in a J6.

 

 

A Comet/Mashima combination in an Austerity.

 

 

A Branchlines/Mashima combination in a DJH Princess Coronation.

 

 

A Markits/Mashima/Comet combination to replace the original (Ugh!) Bachmann split chassis for a V2 (I then fitted a proper V2 body from Graeme King). 

 

 

A Backwoods Miniatures/baby Mashima combo in a B12/3.

 

 

A High-Level/Mashima combo in an ancient L1.

 

 

DJH's own motor/gearbox combo in a K2.

 

 

A DJH/Mashima flat can in an A4.

 

 

And a Portescap in an A3.

 

The actual programme itself appeared on here at the beginning of the month, but this thread is going at more than a page a day!

 

More December 'adventures' later.

 

 

[micklner]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I have seen one or two pictures of "slightly bent" 6-plankers, but nothing like the way the cattle wagons went. I understand the least atrocious examples of the latter were rebuilt as container flats and lasted into the fifties.

 

The deficiencies in the Oxford model are a great pity; the bits they did get right are rather nicely done and their wagons run well. IMHO, easily worth revisiting the tooling to mirror-image that second side and put it on a 10' wheelbase; the prototypes of those lasted until c1961. That done, they wouldn't compare badly with Hornby's excellent SR ones.

 

John

See here

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/256-lner-cattle-wagon

 

He covers the Oxford version at the bottom of the article , he was very  OTT regarding its "failings" on here, and elsewhere at the time of release.

 

I agree re the Oxford effort , very easy to redo the mirror image side and a quick repaint . Compared to Bachmann's overpriced and very poor effort a total bargain, not perfect but nothing ever is !!.

 

Banana Vans soon from Oxford for about 1/2 the current price of Bachmanns Vans  cant be bad !!

Edited December 30, 2021 by micklner

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, micklner said:

See here

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/256-lner-cattle-wagon

 

He covers the Oxford version at the bottom of the article , he was very  OTT regarding its "failings" on here, and elsewhere at the time of release.

 

I agree re the Oxford effort , very easy to redo the mirror image side and a quick repaint . Compared to Bachmann's overpriced and very poor effort a total bargain, not perfect but nothing ever is !!.

 

Banana Vans soon from Oxford for about 1/2 the current price of Bachmanns Vans  cant be bad !!

Yes, it's a great pity though, that Oxford didn't pick the 10' wheelbase Diagram 122 fitted wagon to cover, thereby justifying the inclusion of a BR livery version.

 

It seems pretty certain that 9' wagons surviving into BR days (if any did) would have been rotting away in sidings awaiting eventual destruction. They certainly never received BR paint or numbering, and some pre-grouping types outlasted them.

 

The exact chronology isn't recorded in the published sources to which I have access, but the few nine-footers remaining in traffic at the cessation of hostilities (though, no doubt, infrequently by then) seem to have been condemned by the LNER in very short order thereafter. 

 

John

Edited December 30, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[micklner]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Yes, it's a great pity though, that Oxford didn't pick the 10' wheelbase Diagram 122 fitted wagon to cover, thereby justifying the inclusion of a BR livery version.

 

It seems pretty certain that 9' versions surviving into BR days (if any did) would have been rotting away in sidings awaiting eventual destruction. They certainly never received BR paint or numbering.

 

The exact chronology isn't recorded in the published sources to which I have access, but the few nine-footers remaining in traffic at the cessation of hostilities (though, no doubt, infrequently by then) seem to have been condemned by the LNER in very short order thereafter. 

 

John

Poor research at best.

[jwealleans]

To amplify my point back upthread about variety in 16T steel minerals, someone has helpfully posted a series of links on the dedicated thread to help the amateur like me pick out the variants.  These are all very early - only one BR built example and that's not to the most common diagram. 

 

Kits are available for many of these and with crosskitting you can make most of the different diagrams (I'm told).

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

A LMS built Lowfit ???

No flies on you, Clive. According to Essery/Morgan it is dia.1986 (funnily enough the destructions don't mention that). I think I can make it end up looking enough like it for my standards. It might even end up carrying a tractor...

[jwealleans]

9 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

It might even end up carrying a tractor...

 

I can confirm that one will fit.

 

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

To amplify my point back upthread about variety in 16T steel minerals, someone has helpfully posted a series of links on the dedicated thread to help the amateur like me pick out the variants.  These are all very early - only one BR built example and that's not to the most common diagram. 

 

Kits are available for many of these and with crosskitting you can make most of the different diagrams (I'm told).

Indeed, and it got even more "interesting" as time passed. Many of the earlier designs were built with pressed-steel doors which generally deteriorated faster than the rest of the wagon, with many subsequently receiving new welded doors. 

 

This led to the appearance of LMS, LNER and MoWT wagons becoming more (but not exactly) like later BR types.

 

Lovely for us wagon buffs! For anyone developing a yen for not having any two wagons that are  exactly the same, I strongly recommend The Acquired Wagons of British Railways, Volume 2, by David Larkin (Crecy/OPC).

 

John

[Clive Mortimore]

2 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

I can confirm that one will fit.

 

Ah but that is a BR dia 1/001 with dropsides and ends. The LMS Lowfit had fixed sides and ends.

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

I can confirm that one will fit.

 

I'm currently attempting (with some difficulty/frustration) to convincingly attach one of those to a dummy floor so I can return the wagon empty....

 

I have recently acquired some thinner "rope" which should result in its completion early in the New Year, and maybe even the construction of one with a Field Marshall on it, too.

 

John

Edited December 30, 2021 by Dunsignalling