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3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The first book seems to have the strangest choice of cover photograph; since it's about railways in a specific region of the UK, surely the cover shot should be from a recognisable location in that region, not an over-cropped three-quarter view of a Class 66 with all the background removed.  It could have been taken absolutely anywhere and would be more appropriate to a book on the Class 66 itself.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

The book (inside) is actually very interesting and there are many more-appropriate shots which could have been chosen for a cover, including (a modern) one of a Class 37 at Holywell Junction. 

 

There's even a page devoted to a local device for detecting sunken ships! 

 

Since I was born and bred in Chester, I found the whole thing fascinating.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

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2 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

Agreed. As the saying goes, you shouldn't judge a book by the cover, but that cover puts me off. Having relatively recently moved to the area, I'm interested to learn more about what was here. That cover gives the impression the content will be lacking. By the time the 66s came on the scene most (all?) of what the book purports to be about was gone.

Good evening Trevor,

 

Actually, the book will tell you quite a bit about the industrial/railway heritage of where you've recently moved to, including the reason why The Wrexham Mold & Connah's Quay Railway was built. 

 

The inappropriate cover does the work no favours, the only link with the contents being Class 66s running to Tata Steels at Shotton. By far the vast majority of what's inside relates to the past. 

 

At £25.00, I consider it good value for money. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I can't believe this debate is taking place!

 

It is patently obvious that the handrails are unpainted steel, albeit darkened in traffic. I strongly suspect that they were originally burnished for some reason.

 

The suggestion that they are painted dark green is, IMHO, a red herring of large proportions.

 

CJI.

 

15 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Thanks, I wondered about that but LNER is not my "bag", so I hesitated to suggest it.

 

Bare metal would presumably have been oiled during cleaning to fend off rust, too. 

 

John 

 

While trying to check up further on this, I recalled a colour photo of an A3 on the front cover of "Backtrack" (October 1997 - Vol 11, No 10) and dug it out. I was a little surprised to find that it was of the same loco, at the same location! It is very likely that they were taken by the same person on the same date. In the second photo, the handrails (which are very clearly painted and not metal) look just the same colour as the loco colour of LNER green!

 

The are much further away from the camera than in the first photo and it is a printed and quite grainy view but there is nothing in the second picture that would make me even query the handrail colours as being anything other than body colour. So I am now confused. We have two photos taken of the same loco and the handrails look to be different colours in each one.

 

I think I will go back to my shed and pretend I never said or saw anything.

 

 

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I'm not sure about the colour of A3 handrails, other than whenever I've painted a model, or Ian Rathbone or Geoff Haynes has painted one, the handrails are body-colour.

 

What the lovely shot does show is the tops of the splashers were painted green. Geoff and I were puzzling over what colour they should be on the recent Raven A2 he's got for painting now. Green.

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29 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Trevor,

 

Actually, the book will tell you quite a bit about the industrial/railway heritage of where you've recently moved to, including the reason why The Wrexham Mold & Connah's Quay Railway was built. 

 

The inappropriate cover does the work no favours, the only link with the contents being Class 66s running to Tata Steels at Shotton. By far the vast majority of what's inside relates to the past. 

 

At £25.00, I consider it good value for money. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Thank you Tony. I think I'll buy a copy regardless of the cover!

 

Part of one of our regular walks is on the trackbed of the Wrexham Mold & Connah's Quay, usually passing the site of the original Buckley Station. The immediate area was obviously very different when the railway was built.

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Just three new books for review this time.........

 

1282729767_RailwaysandIndustriesinNorthWalesDeeside.jpg.5f9ceccd757718c06122085ad631f3e7.jpg

 

1223587995_ScottishRailwayAtlas.jpg.9101a703931acaea626af2172ceb7a2c.jpg

 

1343689096_TheLondonMidlandandScottishWay.jpg.44ba762dde5f6128973f4656f00e7087.jpg

 

All good stuff! 

Having also had the Scottish atlas to review for the SLS I was slightly disappointed to find that the only two locations I could think of that weren’t the blindingly obvious (so undoubtedly correct) to check for accuracy/currency were both out of date. That said I still rated it  v-f-m as it is worth it for the copies of the RCH then maps alone and there is lots more in the book.

 

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Just now, Compound2632 said:

Could we be seeing the effect or continuous cleaning and polishing of the cab side, the firebox and especially the handrail not having been treated to such vigorous attention?

And possibly greasy hands on the hand rail.

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43 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm not sure about the colour of A3 handrails, other than whenever I've painted a model, or Ian Rathbone or Geoff Haynes has painted one, the handrails are body-colour.

 

What the lovely shot does show is the tops of the splashers were painted green. Geoff and I were puzzling over what colour they should be on the recent Raven A2 he's got for painting now. Green.

 

Hello Tony,

 

If you have "East Coast Pacifics at Work" by Peter Townend, there are a couple of shots of Raven A2s which clearly show that the splasher tops are not only green but also lined out, unlike the A1/3 splashers, which were plain green.

 

I have seen plain green, black and lined green (with at least two different styles of lining) splasher tops on LNER green locos, so it is not quite as easy as saying they they should all be green.

 

 

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My feeling is that the handrails on the loco itself are all seen against a well-lit and relatively light green background, with light falling from above and left as we look up, so we see most strongly the undersides which are in shadow, and the right side of the vertical cab handrail, also in shadow. When I look hard, I also see the brightly lit upper parts of the horizontal rails, the left side of the vertical cab handrail, and the upper left aspects of the knobs, all looking (falsely) a lighter green than the background. The situation is different when looking at the rail at the front of the tender, seen against the darkness of the cab interior. The side of the rail that is in shadow almost vanishes, the sunlit part stands out as a green at least as light as the main panels.

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5 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I have seen plain green, black and lined green (with at least two different styles of lining) splasher tops on LNER green locos, so it is not quite as easy as saying they they should all be green.

 

I'm afraid you're into the vagaries of which works the loco was painted at for many of these variations.   As always, photographs are your only real hope of getting close to an answer.   A2s would have been painted at Darlington and A3s at Doncaster so I'm not in the least surprised that they were different.  Things may also have changed after 1928 and the painting economies: I have just looked at two pictures of A2s towards the very end of their lives and the aplasher tops are not lined.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, john new said:

And possibly greasy hands on the hand rail.

 

Exactly  - we are now so obsessed with trying to establish exact painting 'rules' that we are looking too hard, and are seeing what is not there.

 

Any handrail on a intensively used steam loco will rapidly loose all signs of paint - IF such was ever applied.

 

Remember that the stanchions were attached directly to the boiler, so heat would be transmitted. Also, constant abrasion by greasy, gritty hands / gloves would remove or cover such a finish and / or burnish the handrails to a finish akin to that of the valvegear rods.

 

Anyone who climbed into the cab of a well-used steam loco in BR times will instantly recognise the handrail finish in the original photo; darkish steel colour with a slightly greasy surface.

 

Let's not get to hung up on such matters; unless you are trying to represent an ex-works loco.

 

CJI.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm not sure about the colour of A3 handrails, other than whenever I've painted a model, or Ian Rathbone or Geoff Haynes has painted one, the handrails are body-colour.

 

What the lovely shot does show is the tops of the splashers were painted green. Geoff and I were puzzling over what colour they should be on the recent Raven A2 he's got for painting now. Green.

Tony

 

The splasher tops  in the Sir Hugo photo are Black and unlined ,and the photo is  post war.

 

The Raven A2 splashers were Green and lined in white . After what Jonathan has just typed , you also need a photo to confirm either way for the period of use.

 

2400 Splashers Green lined white with a  Black border. Photo is pre 1928 as Numbers are on the Tender, I would guess just painted into LNER livery 1923/4.

 

Class A2 - 2400 CITY OF NEWCASTLE - Raven NER/LNER 4-6-2 - built 12/22 by Darlington Works - 04/37 withdrawn from York North MPD - seen here when new.

 

 

Posted for educational purposes only.

 

See here for a photos of A2 City of Durham with the Gresley tender, halfway down page.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101015-mikemegs-workbench-building-locos-of-the-north-eastern-lner/page/16/

 

Mick

 

 

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I have looked at that picture of "Sir Hugo" many times, and the other one referred to earlier taken on the same occasion but looking at the loco from the front.  What beautiful pictures!  We are lucky to have such clear colour pictures of an engine in, effectively, pre-War LNER livery.

 

It had never occurred to me that the handrails were anything other than "body colour", which I believe was LNER practice.  Several other pictures in "The Big Four in Colour" bear this out.  The only time the handrails of LNER locos were 'polished steel' was when engines were specially turned out for things like Royal Trains, exhibitions or to work crack expresses.  In the picture the loco is virtually ex works; according to the book's picture caption it was turned out from General Repair on 17th August 1946, and the picture was taken that same month.  There is no sign of soot on top of the boiler or any other grime.  I don't think the handrails could have been used by oily hands often enough to have altered the colour of all of the handrails consistently for all of their length, in that space of time.

 

Looking at the picture again, now the question has been asked, I do now see them as being darker than the 'Apple Green' of the livery, but I think that must be some trick of the light, and they were actually 'body colour'.  Certainly if you look at the other picture, in the above book, I think the long boiler handrail in particular does appear as the same colour as the boiler cladding.

 

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21 minutes ago, micklner said:

Tony

 

The splasher tops  in the Sir Hugo photo are Black and unlined ,and the photo is  post war.

 

The Raven A2 splashers were Green and lined in white . After what Jonathan has just typed , you also need a photo to confirm either way for the period of use.

 

2400 Splashers Green lined white with a  Black border. Photo is pre 1928 as Numbers are on the Tender, I would guess just painted into LNER livery 1923/4.

 

Class A2 - 2400 CITY OF NEWCASTLE - Raven NER/LNER 4-6-2 - built 12/22 by Darlington Works - 04/37 withdrawn from York North MPD - seen here when new.

 

 

Posted for educational purposes only.

 

Mick

 

 

Good evening Mick,

 

'The splasher tops  in the Sir Hugo photo are Black and unlined'

 

Are you sure? They look green to me.

 

It's incredible how so many pairs of eyes can interpret so many different things (what a can of worms you've opened, Tony Gee!). 

 

Thanks for posting the shot of the A2 in original LNER condition. If nothing else, it shows Darlington's first LNER style of green-painting (more NER, naturally), where the cab was panel-lined like the tender, unlike later when just the edges were lined. 

 

I think I'll just leave it to Geoff Haynes..............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Mick,

 

'The splasher tops  in the Sir Hugo photo are Black and unlined'

 

Are you sure? They look green to me.

 

It's incredible how so many pairs of eyes can interpret so many different things (what a can of worms you've opened, Tony Gee!). 

 

Thanks for posting the shot of the A2 in original LNER condition. If nothing else, it shows Darlington's first LNER style of green-painting (more NER, naturally), where the cab was panel-lined like the tender, unlike later when just the edges were lined. 

 

I think I'll just leave it to Geoff Haynes..............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Yes I am very sure re the Black, others may say otherwise :D.

 

In case you havent look at the other photos on MIke Megs thread for the period I presume you are looking for.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

The book (inside) is actually very interesting and there are many more-appropriate shots which could have been chosen for a cover, including (a modern) one of a Class 37 at Holywell Junction. 

 

There's even a page devoted to a local device for detecting sunken ships! 

 

Since I was born and bred in Chester, I found the whole thing fascinating.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

So does it get as far as Chester or is that not deeside? My grand parents lived next to the bache station and I have never seen a photo of it. Come to think of it. I never remember seeing a train run through when I visited my grandparents either.

richard 

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9 hours ago, Denbridge said:

I bought a bottle of Caustic Soda not long ago from Ebay.

 I hope they didn't send it through the post. I have received products that should have been sent by courier but eBay traders often done follow the rules or apply common sense. 

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I know one shouldn't really use photographs of preserved steam as a guide for painting models representing a loco in general service.

 

However,

 

1284294270_FLYINGSCOTSMAN.jpg.15b4a01dfcb0f0b4ff840bf2bb7b171a.jpg

 

This shot was taken in the summer of 1963 when FLYING SCOTSMAN was first preserved. 

 

She was repaired/repainted at Doncaster for Alan Pegler. The splasher tops are definitely green (agreed?). Now, I'll bet someone in the Plant paintshop in 1963 will have been there in pre-War LNER days, and would have painted the loco in that style.

 

1734625461_FlyingScotsman01.jpg.a6aaa7d09e995e8aa97481d54b1fdbe7.jpg

 

This is taken later, after her first repair/repaint in preservation, this time undertaken at Darlington (hence the green-painted cylinder sides). The splasher edges are painted black. Was this a Darlington feature as well?

 

She also tows her second tender. 

 

Interestingly, from the photographer's notes, both shots were taken with the same camera (a Leica) on the same Kodak film stock. I wonder why there's such a difference in the colours; Doncaster green being different to Darlington green? 

 

I'm sure this has been discussed before............

 

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9 minutes ago, richard i said:

So does it get as far as Chester or is that not deeside? My grand parents lived next to the bache station and I have never seen a photo of it. Come to think of it. I never remember seeing a train run through when I visited my grandparents either.

richard 

Good evening Richard,

 

Chester is mentioned in the book, but not featured. 

 

The Bache Station (on the now 3rd-rail electrified line from Chester to Birkenhead/Liverpool) is a new one, replacing the old Upton-by-Chester Station, which was far less convenient for residents, being much further out off the Liverpool Road. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

 

I thought it was interesting enough to post anyway.

Agreed.

However as has happened you will get a wide range of responses for various reasons.

I worked in QA and that included accurate colour matching.

Try matching new panels for an old car in British Racing Green. You will never satisfy everybody.

I worked with one person who would react strongly to the smallest amount of warmth in a grey tone while being immune to much greater differences when it was to the cold side.

Most people I found tend to see things the other way round.

Being involved in photographic printing, including wedding photography, I would always finish prints slightly on the warm side and never had any complaints. Natural flesh tones will tend to give cold shadows so you adjust things so as not to get that effect.

Bernard 

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55 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Mick,

 

'The splasher tops  in the Sir Hugo photo are Black and unlined'

 

Are you sure? They look green to me.

 

It's incredible how so many pairs of eyes can interpret so many different things (what a can of worms you've opened, Tony Gee!). 

 

Thanks for posting the shot of the A2 in original LNER condition. If nothing else, it shows Darlington's first LNER style of green-painting (more NER, naturally), where the cab was panel-lined like the tender, unlike later when just the edges were lined. 

 

I think I'll just leave it to Geoff Haynes..............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Me? Open a can of worms? As if I would even dream of doing such a thing!

 

One of the strange things about the green splasher tops is that it is the only place, unless anybody else knows of any others, where black and green were not separated by a white line. So you had black along the edge of the splasher side, going to plain green on the top. It can fool the eye. You really need a nice photo of a really clean loco to get a good idea of what colour splasher tops are and by their very nature, they are often shiny and you can see the green of the boiler reflected in the black splasher top.

 

You can't put it down to works as some Doncaster locos had black splasher tops, some had green.

 

The number of photos that give a 100% clear impression is tiny but there are enough to show that they were certainly not all alike. Nearly all photos are open to more than one interpretation, so I only ever quote examples where I am pretty certain there can be no doubt. Even colour photos are sometimes not 100% decisive as has been illustrated here, although the Backtrack photo of Sir Hugo makes me think the splasher tops are green. It is just weathered enough for it to be not caused by reflection of the boiler colour. 

 

I am sure we had this discussion some time ago but I discussed LNER splasher tops with Malcolm Crawley over many years and we both spent many hours poring over photos trying to establish a pattern, either by works or by date.

 

They seemed to vary even within classes that should have been painted at the same place at the same time.

 

I put forward a theory that the variation might be because the individual painters might  have created the variations down to lack of clear instructions. Painting Specs. (the ones I have seen anyway) give instructions for the footplate and for the splashers but the splasher tops could really be considered as part of either. It can only ever be a theory as I don't think I could ever prove it.

 

I do like looking at photos and picking out odd details or features that don't necessarily fit with what everybody considers to be established rules.

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The cynic in me also wonders if they were the last job to finish off a loco and it even depended on how much of the paint in each option they had left without opening new can(s) or having to draw more from stores? 

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33 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Agreed.

However as has happened you will get a wide range of responses for various reasons.

I worked in QA and that included accurate colour matching.

Try matching new panels for an old car in British Racing Green. You will never satisfy everybody.

I worked with one person who would react strongly to the smallest amount of warmth in a grey tone while being immune to much greater differences when it was to the cold side.

Most people I found tend to see things the other way round.

Being involved in photographic printing, including wedding photography, I would always finish prints slightly on the warm side and never had any complaints. Natural flesh tones will tend to give cold shadows so you adjust things so as not to get that effect.

Bernard 

 

One of my reasons for posting it was to create a discussion and to see how others saw what I was looking at.

 

The range of responses has been most interesting! The handrails are everything from Apple Green, grey, dark green and oily metal coloured, all from different eyes looking at the same photo on different electronic devices. It is really fascinating.

 

To my eyes, they were dark green, very similar to the former GNR panel edging green, if not the same colour. It doesn't worry me if people either don't agree or think I am colourblind. I just might be!

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