Wright writes.....

[micklner]

Hollywood Foundry used to have a Mashima Power Chart. All the Ten series Can motors had a higher power output than the  equivalent size of 12 series Can motors.

 

The one in the J6 photo above looks like a version of the similar DS10?  which were always poor.  I have used a few Mitsumis sourced via ebay in Locos, without problems (when the Locos is big enough).

 

For a J6 and similar size   Locos I recomend High Level's new Can motors 1015 and 1020 sizes .

[uax6]

Paint:

Its a bit of a game in any scale... I have a GPO moggy thou van (well I have two, but the wife doesn't know about the other one, its in hiding!) which should be painted to BS 381c shade 223 mid bronze green, but interestingly when i worked for BT I stumbled upon a set of bins for the rear of them in an exchange. They were in mint condition and looked like they had never been used. Now they were painted in the correct green, which was sampled and then used for spraying the outside of the van. This is a noticeably darker shade to the green that gets mixed to the BS code, the later looking very light to my eyes, and no-where near the green that you find on original panels, and its noticeable when my van is next to other green GPO vans... mine is always always the darkest one there, except if there is an original paint one there..

 

Even getting paint to match is a game. I recently had to cut out the tails of the rear arches, and put new sill finishers on. I got some rattle cans made up from a scan of the body, and the finishers and the arches were prepped in the same way, yet the sill finishers match the body, but the arch bottoms are miles out.... I still don't know why!

 

Andy G

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Thank you for your kind words concerning the Mitsumi motors that I have for sale.

 

It would appear that you have mounted the motor 'on the slant', which will account for much of the whitemetal carving that you undertook. It really is very easy to drill the gearbox to allow the motor to be mounted 'square'; or, if you prefer, it is even easier to solder the motor case to the gearbox!

 

John Isherwood.

Thanks  John,

 

I did consider trying to mount the motor square but I’m quite nervous at this part of kit building so tend to stick with the simple. I didn’t want to drill an already constructed gearbox for fear of filings getting in the wrong place and I never considered soldering it! Filing white metal is more my level!

 

Andy

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Andy,

 

I've come across this apparent loss of power with regard to Mashima motors down the years. 

 

On occasions, it's terminal and the motor is rendered a dud. However, it can be caused by muck on the commutator building up. What I've done is to gently unscrew the brushes and then remove them (extremely carefully), making sure that the springs don't escape. Then, carefully clean the commutator with a cocktail stick, and use a pin to clear the slots. If necessary, just increase the pressure exerted by the springs (by gently pulling them longer) before inserting the brushes back in. 

 

It has worked, but not always. I must have replaced about a dozen Mashimas down the years, but that's well less than 10% of the number of locos I've put them in. It's also after years of hard work.

 

On some Mashima models, the brushes cannot be removed. In that case, it's a new motor! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony,

 

I’ve nothing to lose so I’ll have a go at cleaning it up.

 

Andy

[gr.king]

3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks  John,

 

I did consider trying to mount the motor square but I’m quite nervous at this part of kit building so tend to stick with the simple. I didn’t want to drill an already constructed gearbox for fear of filings getting in the wrong place and I never considered soldering it! Filing white metal is more my level!

 

Andy

 

 

A method I've used for plotting new holes in the gearbox in order to turn the motor to the upright position:  Firstly cut a hole in a piece of paper to fit snugly over the boss at the front of the motor, then use that paper and a pencil to get a rubbing showing the motor screw hole positions. Transfer the paper to the gearbox, orientated to compensate for the unwanted angle of motor mount, and mark the required positions on the gearbox. Drill slowly by hand if the the gearbox is already assembled, and a blob of grease where you are drilling (both sides of the material) will help hold any swarf until you can clear it away.

[Jol Wilkinson]

49 minutes ago, micklner said:

Hollywood Foundry used to have a Mashima Power Chart. All the Ten series Can motors had a higher power output than the  equivalent size of 12 series Can motors.

 

The one in the J6 photo above looks like a version of the similar DS10?  which were always poor.  I have used a few Mitsumis sourced via ebay in Locos, without problems (when the Locos is big enough).

 

For a J6 and similar size   Locos I recomend High Level's new Can motors 1015 and 1020 sizes .

 

I've used the Mashima 1224  in eight etched loco kits and found them to be very good. However, I avoided the 1220 as it was less powerful and would certainly have not used it in a heavy white-metal kit. The later 10XX and 14XX enclosed motors were more powerful.

 

The EMGS Manual has a very comprehensive section on motors, with performance details, etc. but I don't think it has been updated to include the High Level or Mitsumi motors.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, gr.king said:

A method I've used for plotting new holes in the gearbox in order to turn the motor to the upright position:  Firstly cut a hole in a piece of paper to fit snugly over the boss at the front of the motor, then use that paper and a pencil to get a rubbing showing the motor screw hole positions. Transfer the paper to the gearbox, orientated to compensate for the unwanted angle of motor mount, and mark the required positions on the gearbox. Drill slowly by hand if the the gearbox is already assembled, and a blob of grease where you are drilling (both sides of the material) will help hold any swarf until you can clear it away.

 

The Mitsumi motors that I supply come with a drilling diagram and two fixing screws.

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I understand all the reasons why things may look the way that they do and that all our eyes are different and that all our screens are different.

 

I have just "snipped" another portion of the image.

 

 

If anybody wants to tell me that the handrail and the cab/tender side sheets are the same colour then I should probably never paint a model ever again as my eyes are not fit for purpose when it comes to colours! We can argue until the cows come home about what the correct shades of green are, or whether they are green, grey or dirty metal coloured, or whether we are all seeing the same thing on our screens but can anybody really say that they look as if they are the same colour as the body sides? Even the sides catching the direct light look different, so it isn't just an issue of shadows.

 

Anyway, if nobody wants to agree with me, that is fine but if I ever build a model of Sir Hugo as it was in August 1946, mine will have dark green handrails! 

Hello, I've read through the discussion - catching up again! - with great interest; I would fully agree that such questions are always worth raising because we spend a lot of time concerning ourselves with shades of colour and we derive enormous satisfaction from believing we have achieved some sort of accuracy, so examining and analysing primary source material like this photo is central to the process.

I would have to say though - having looked carefully at all the examples and read everyone's analyses - that it looks to me very much as if the rails are the same colour as the cab/tender sides.

I believe the apparent difference is due to one of more of the suggested reasons: light hitting different planes; paint appearing different (reflecting light differently) on different surfaces / metals; dirt (I realise this photo is pretty much ex-works, but I'd imagine that a surprising amount of coal dust / oil / grease / dirt could accumulate on handrails in a very short time); or different paint batches or formulations (perhaps for different metals) that were ever so slightly less matched in colour than intended.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you anyone's though! As various people have said, things look different to different people... vive la difference!

[zr2498]

More progress on the bridge - turning out to be quite a project!

 

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Hello, I've read through the discussion - catching up again! - with great interest; I would fully agree that such questions are always worth raising because we spend a lot of time concerning ourselves with shades of colour and we derive enormous satisfaction from believing we have achieved some sort of accuracy, so examining and analysing primary source material like this photo is central to the process.

I would have to say though - having looked carefully at all the examples and read everyone's analyses - that it looks to me very much as if the rails are the same colour as the cab/tender sides.

I believe the apparent difference is due to one of more of the suggested reasons: light hitting different planes; paint appearing different (reflecting light differently) on different surfaces / metals; dirt (I realise this photo is pretty much ex-works, but I'd imagine that a surprising amount of coal dust / oil / grease / dirt could accumulate on handrails in a very short time); or different paint batches or formulations (perhaps for different metals) that were ever so slightly less matched in colour than intended.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you anyone's though! As various people have said, things look different to different people... vive la difference!

 

You could well be right, as could other contributors to the discussion.

 

I was looking for other examples of coloured illustrations of handrails and came across a colour photo of Henry Oakley,  No 990, admittedly in GNR livery in preservation days, with dark green handrails, plus a few other models with dark green handrails. One is a Large Atlantic by Frank Davies of this parish on an LNER liveried large Atlantic. That is a Bachmann body and I believe the dark green was applied by Bachmann, so did they get that wrong and why would you guess a dark green colour when doing them Apple Green would have been much easier for them, not requiring an additional colour?

 

As I suspected, the GNR livery on 990 has the handrails the same colour as the dark green edging to the lining. 990 has polished metal handrails now but it wasn't always so.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N02/5450089621/in/photolist-9iB8Lr-GqNmun-tARSNv-AygL9J-8vBfxa-2dB3qJs-2hzFx1H-2dB3qa1-JUhLCT-JtqEoN-26SXgnw-H9bSkP-HEanJt-Gve7c5-9LsGDR-UxCYhv-7GbRTq-Fmw7yH-zSU7HY-FRFhih-dy3hYo-WtUqmd-24X2hxS-h86QNK-JK6Qu3-TkeCdd-8BbPQW-FXZaKR-2h1kphY-zGyZiY-QARX7d-2h1kouk-ViVq6X-UE1hXu-ZQDvQW-UE1g7L-WxvF9F-8vHqAY-8daFrc-ddE74h-25KXYU7-4yXNTa-B7XhSv-M4nb31-AFYDay-2ijEkTS-GqNnpZ-SJXcDE-2iLMZJK-2kCuF8J

 

So perhaps I wasn't barking up totally the wrong tree. Some other people think they should be dark green too.

 

I would like to think that Sir Hugo was painted by an ex GNR paint shop man who knew exactly what he was doing.

 

 

 

 

[Woodcock29]

Tony G

The Bachmann/ NRM  LNER C1 comes with black handrails - they need to be painted green. I've just tarted up my third of these, a lovely model. Luckily I picked up the last two here in Oz secondhand  - the latest actually being a brand new model but from a deceased estate.

Andrew

[t-b-g]

5 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony G

The Bachmann/ NRM  LNER C1 comes with black handrails - they need to be painted green. I've just tarted up my third of these, a lovely model. Luckily I picked up the last two here in Oz secondhand  - the latest actually being a brand new model but from a deceased estate.

Andrew

 

Interesting. I looked at some from Bachmann which had dark green handrails. Their LNER liveried 3251 for example.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/1694927872

 

So perhaps they have done some with black and some with dark green.

[MikeTrice]

The model you refer to in the previous post has black handrails as viewing the other images would confirm.

[Lemmy282]

Paint matching is always a nightmare. I'm involved with tramcar restorations, and cutting back through paint layers on panels reveals variations on liveries applied over the years. I'm reminded of a story of someone in the past who wanted to model a Llandudno tram in the green livery. He contacted the man who painted the real things and asked what the  specification of the shade was, only to be told "whatever was the nearest that Woolworths had in at the time".

 

[Pacific231G]

I suspect we're more obsessed with "correct" colour than ever was the prototype until modern pantone etc. colours came in and branding  came to be seen as of vital performance. You also simply can't rely on the pigments in colour photos, expecially older ones,  to give you an exact colour reference and I actually suspect that the work of a good painter may be a better guide.  Colours also change with the light falling on them.  I had a good, though frustrating. illustration of this in the version of Tati's Jour de Fête restored from the original colour negatives*. For my layout  I wanted to know the exact colour of green of French posting boxes from that era and there is a scene in the film that takes place around a post box. No chance! From each different angle (there were about four or five) the colour of the same postbox shot probably within a couple of hours under a clear sky looked completely different. 

 

* Tati's first feature film was shot in and around the small French town of St. Sévère -sur-Indre where he'd spent the occupation  and released in 1949. He used the new and untested Thomsoncolor proces but for safety shot the scenes simultaneously in B&W with a second camera. In the event the colour process (that I think used two negatives)  didn't work properly for printing so Tati cut and released the film in B&W-

More recently,  in the 1990s, new digital techniques made it at last possilbe to work from the original colour negs. that had been kept in storage so his daughter, the film editor Sophie Tatischeff (Tati's real surname) and the cinematographer François Ede set about restoring and cutting a colour version. It wasn't just a matter of cut matching the B&W version as colour favours a different cutting rhythm so Tatischeff cut it as she felt her father would have done (she'd worked as an editor on a couple of his films) 

 

The film does by the way includes two rather good railway sequences one involving a bike race at a level crossing, a visual gag he'd used in an earlier short film,  and the other some bucolic shunting at a metre gauge station (Marçais, Cher. a junction on the SE Centre) that closed a couple of years later. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Pacific231G
typos and adding the name of Marçais station

[St Enodoc]

39 minutes ago, Lemmy282 said:

Paint matching is always a nightmare. I'm involved with tramcar restorations, and cutting back through paint layers on panels reveals variations on liveries applied over the years. I'm reminded of a story of someone in the past who wanted to model a Llandudno tram in the green livery. He contacted the man who painted the real things and asked what the  specification of the shade was, only to be told "whatever was the nearest that Woolworths had in at the time".

 

Well, as I recall Woollies only did Spring Green and Rural Green so that wouldn't have been too tricky.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, MikeTrice said:

The model you refer to in the previous post has black handrails as viewing the other images would confirm.

 

They don't look as black as the edging on the lining. I saw them as dark green but as usual, I don't claim any special colour vision and I am prepared to be wrong about it. I am sure somebody must have bought one and can confirm what colour they are without all the problems associated with digitised images, photography and screens etc.

[Atso]

32 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

They don't look as black as the edging on the lining. I saw them as dark green but as usual, I don't claim any special colour vision and I am prepared to be wrong about it. I am sure somebody must have bought one and can confirm what colour they are without all the problems associated with digitised images, photography and screens etc.

 

Hi Mr Gee,

 

I believe that Woodcock39 has already confirmed this.

 

Might I also suggest an analysis of other areas of the photo - maybe the firebox and boiler handrails to see how they compare. Also reviewing other colour photos of LNER green liveried locos may provide more information to provide a rounded conclusion.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Atso
To add something

[manna]

G'day Folks

 

I love 'Black' engines.................

 

manna

[thegreenhowards]

31 minutes ago, manna said:

G'day Folks

 

I love 'Black' engines.................

 

manna

I don’t when I’m trying to work out where to put the lining using pre war black and white photography!

[t-b-g]

9 hours ago, Atso said:

 

Hi Mr Gee,

 

I believe that Woodcock39 has already confirmed this.

 

Might I also suggest an analysis of other areas of the photo - maybe the firebox and boiler handrails to see how they compare. Also reviewing other colour photos of LNER green liveried locos may provide more information to provide a rounded conclusion.

 

It could be that the handrails are chemically blackened rather than painted, which gives a different finish to them (more very dark grey than black) compared to the black lining. They certainly don't look as dark as the "full on" black of the lining. A metallic blackened finish reflecting the green of the body could make them appear green.

 

Some Bachmann C1s come with shiny metal handrails, some come with them dark/blackened and others have said about painting them green, so there is clearly some confusion about the correct colours.

 

I note that at least one of the preserved Atlantics now has polished steel handrails in brass pillars! How's that for another variation and how "model-like" is that? Anybody using turned brass pillars and nickel silver wire is on to a winner with that one.

 

If you look at my first post on the matter, all I ever suggested was that the handrails on Sir Hugo looked to be not the same colour as the body panels in that photo and that they looked dark green to me. I was never suggesting that all locos were like that all the time. 

[jwealleans]

I have a Bachmann 3251 and had to paint the black handrails green on mine.

[46444]

I hope Tony does not mind me posting this link here to a question I have posted on the Modellers Question section of this site? 

 

Being a thread of LNER knowledge I would imagine someone can point me in the right direction. 

 

I really like the LNER D49 Class in all guises and would like a fairly representative model of an D49/1 Shire Class for working on a Borders based layout. Perhaps an St. Margaret's or Haymarket example. 

 

The Hornby model has the 'as built' smoke box door and from my research 62706 retained this in BR times. I have the Dunn book on Gresley D49's. 

 

However most were fitted with a larger dished variation which may have consisted of two designs.

 

Does anyone know of a source for obtaining the dished design? 

 

I have a Hornby D49/1 Bodyshell, Hornby Railroad motorised D49 chassis and Bachmann 4000 Gallon GCR tender as fitted to most of the D49/1's during the early 1940's.

 

Like many I am surprised Hornby has never revisited this class. 

 

Thanks in advance and it is always a pleasure reading this thread. 

 

Regards, 

 

Mark 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by 46444

[micklner]

23 minutes ago, 46444 said:

I hope Tony does not mind me posting this link here to a question I have posted on the Modellers Question section of this site? 

 

Being a thread of LNER knowledge I would imagine someone can point me in the right direction. 

 

I really like the LNER D49 Class in all guises and would like a fairly representative model of an D49/1 Shire Class for working on a Borders based layout. Perhaps an St. Margaret's or Haymarket example. 

 

The Hornby model has the 'as built' smoke box door and from my research 62706 retained this in BR times. I have the Dunn book on Gresley D49's. 

 

However most were fitted with a larger dished variation which may have consisted of two designs.

 

Does anyone know of a source for obtaining the dished design? 

 

I have a Hornby D49/1 Bodyshell, Hornby Railroad motorised D49 chassis and Bachmann 4000 Gallon GCR tender has fitted to most of the D49/1's during the early 1940's.

 

Like many I am surprised Hornby has never revisited this class. 

 

Thanks in advance and it is always a pleasure reading this thread. 

 

Regards, 

 

Mark 

 

 

Try PDK models they do a kit for the D49.

[46444]

2 minutes ago, micklner said:

Try PDK models they do a kit for the D49.

 

Thanks Mick. 

 

I'd forgotten about PDK.  I'll have a look. 

 

I knew someone may know of a source. 

 

Cheers, 

 

Mark