Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

5 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Tony,

 

yes there was two styles of Crimson and cream. The first as you have stated but retaining the shinny trim. This was painted out later.

Thanks Andrew,

 

I thought as much.

 

The shot of The West Riding in the Banks/Carter book was taken in 1950, and there are no extra doors in the visible cars. 

 

However, a glance at plate 215 in The Power of the A1s, A2s and A3s by J S Whiteley and Gavin Morrison shows the same train, but with the second style of carmine/cream painting, showing a cream band below the windows. Interestingly, the extra door is present in one of the FOs. Could this different style of painting have been coincidental with the fitting of the extra doors (following the disastrous fire in 1951 in one of the twins)?

 

What's of interest (at least to me) is that it would be quite feasible for Hornby to offer the forthcoming LNER streamlined cars in first-style BR carmine/cream livery without having to retool for those extra doors - a limited period, admittedly. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

I thought as much.

 

The shot of The West Riding in the Banks/Carter book was taken in 1950, and there are no extra doors in the visible cars. 

 

However, a glance at plate 215 in The Power of the A1s, A2s and A3s by J S Whiteley and Gavin Morrison shows the same train, but with the second style of carmine/cream painting, showing a cream band below the windows. Interestingly, the extra door is present in one of the FOs. Could this different style of painting have been coincidental with the fitting of the extra doors (following the disastrous fire in 1951 in one of the twins)?

 

What's of interest (at least to me) is that it would be quite feasible for Hornby to offer the forthcoming LNER streamlined cars in first-style BR carmine/cream livery without having to retool for those extra doors - a limited period, admittedly. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

For all we know, Hornby might have planned for BR variants in the tooling. However, I expect that many BR-era modellers would not be too bothered about the doors, although I would be. When I commissioned Brian Kirby to build a twin for Retford using a Mailcoach kit, I asked for the extra door and Brian made the necessary adjustments to accommodate it. It's worth keeping in mind that other than on the twin-first, the extra door was only on one side of each twin.

 

The much bigger difference was the removal of the valancing below solebar level. 

 

IMG_0948m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited January 15, 2022 by robertcwp
Add a bit.

[thegreenhowards]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Never used to be.

 

If you look through the first 100 issues or so it was mainly kit building and detailing RTR with a Masterclass feature on a locomotive or rolling stock type often taking up about a dozen pages.

 

it was when Chris Leigh took a less active role that it started being more scenery based. Seems to have picked up again more recently with more constructional articles since George Dent has taken over as editor.

 

I started buying it when I returned to the hobby in the late 1990s and it was a breath of fresh air. All the others available at the time seemed very dated.

 

 

Jason

I agree totally. The series of Steve Banks articles in the mid naughties titled ‘Eastern Secondary services in Transition’ was superb and I refer to them more than any other old model railway magazine article.

[westernviscount]

The Stanier reverse brake in it's completed state. 

 

 

...and the first modelling in months took place this evening after a slump. Kitbuilding the parkside vanwide. Removing the moulded door grabs and replacimg with .33mm brass. 

 

[Headstock]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

I thought as much.

 

The shot of The West Riding in the Banks/Carter book was taken in 1950, and there are no extra doors in the visible cars. 

 

However, a glance at plate 215 in The Power of the A1s, A2s and A3s by J S Whiteley and Gavin Morrison shows the same train, but with the second style of carmine/cream painting, showing a cream band below the windows. Interestingly, the extra door is present in one of the FOs. Could this different style of painting have been coincidental with the fitting of the extra doors (following the disastrous fire in 1951 in one of the twins)?

 

What's of interest (at least to me) is that it would be quite feasible for Hornby to offer the forthcoming LNER streamlined cars in first-style BR carmine/cream livery without having to retool for those extra doors - a limited period, admittedly. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

I couldn't say for sure if it was specifically linked to the Huntington disaster, I would have to dig out my notes. I have never seen a photo of the carriages in the original Crimson and cream livery with the additional doors.

 

What I do remember is that the early repaints of ex LNER stock into crimson and cream followed the BR instructions to the letter. This is why the Crimson band was so close to the window frame on both the West Riding and the more traditional teak carriages in the Master Cutler for example. The BR instructions specified the distance from the window for the crimson band, not from the cornice or the bottom edge of the sides. The specification was based on the dimensions of the MK1 proposal. An unforeseen consequence of this, was how much variation in the crimson band could be caused by the position of the windows, if the specification was followed to the letter.

 

New instructions were issued to lower the height of the band on Gresley carriages, so that it matched the position on the newly painted Thompson carriages. The latter conformed to the BR instructions as regards the distance from the window, they of course had deeper windows. As a result, carriages painted to the original specification were altered as they passed through works when a repaint was required. The application of crimson and cream on the streamliners, basically followed the original LNER livery down to the shinny beading. It was a happy happenstance that it conformed to the official BR specification for the crimson and cream livery as mentioned. The adding of the extra doors would have provided an opportune occasion to update the livery.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Headstock
clarify a point

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, robertcwp said:

For all we know, Hornby might have planned for BR variants in the tooling. However, I expect that many BR-era modellers would not be too bothered about the doors, although I would be. When I commissioned Brian Kirby to build a twin for Retford using a Mailcoach kit, I asked for the extra door and Brian made the necessary adjustments to accommodate it. It's worth keeping in mind that other than on the twin-first, the extra door was only on one side of each twin.

 

The much bigger difference was the removal of the valancing below solebar level. 

 

IMG_0948m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Morning Robert,

 

I don't think the mail coach kits look too bad, if they are super detailed and the basic build and paint job is good. I've had at least twenty years out of my Twin and its extra doors, well worth the effort. I don't think I would replace it at this stage. At one time backdating the train was on the cards, that would have made the Twin redundant anyway.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Headstock
clarify a point

[Headstock]

6 hours ago, johndon said:

Nice looking loco. Just remember that the 01s only handled 8 of the iron ore wagons, it’s only when the 9Fs came along that 9 wagons became the norm  

 

John

 

 

Only eight, that's only four hundred and forty eighty tons up a very steep hill but the much larger 9Fs could only mange another 56 tons. Mind you, I've seen a US Army 2-8-0 out pull a 9F.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Headstock
add space

[john new]

Possibly about what load could guarantee to be re-started by a solo locomotive if stopped anywhere on the way up. 10 on, therefore at plus another 112T over the O1s load =8, just too much hence 9 max.

 

Updated: A subsequent post answers this - train length at the discharge point = max 9

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by john new
Question posed answered in a later post.

[Headstock]

20 minutes ago, john new said:

Possibly about what load could guarantee to be re-started by a solo locomotive if stopped anywhere on the way up.

 

They all had bankers. The 9F has more horses in the horsebox but they could be quite slippy on occasion. Of course it depends how many hoppers you can fit under the loaders and over the discharge area.

 

Victory to the US consolidation as David whoops Goliaths ass in this epic confrontation. from 3.50.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Headstock

[drmditch]

7 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

They all had bankers. The 9F has more horses in the horsebox but they could be quite slippy on occasion. Of course it depends how many hoppers you can fit under the loaders and over the discharge area.

 

Victory to the US consolidation as David whoops Goliaths ass in this epic confrontation. from 3.50.

 

 

 

.....and that's not even a big American engine!

 

While the Tyne Dock - Consett iron traffic is 'top of the list' again, please could I point out (again!) that this traffic started in the 1880s, when Consett invested (along with others, incuding Krupp) in the Orconcera mines in northern Spain.

 

I would be interested to know if anyone has any details of the wagons and locomotives used by the NER/LNER for this working.

 

At the moment I'll just have to use my Q7 and work out how to re-work 21 ton hoppers to resemble the MoWT version.

(Although I'm not sure how much Spanish iron ore was imported in 1939-1945 - what with it being such a dangerous cargo.) 

[uax6]

But it did have the advantage on the better laid track, which was possibly used more and therefore conditioned better than the road the 9f was sat on... It makes you wonder if a Stanier 8F would have come off better as well...

 

Andy G

Edited January 16, 2022 by uax6

[stewartingram]

9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Tony,

 

I couldn't say for sure if it was specifically linked to the Huntington disaster, I would have to dig out my notes. I have never seen a photo of the carriages in the original Crimson and cream livery with the additional doors.

 

What I do remember is that the early repaints of ex LNER stock into crimson and cream followed the BR instructions to the letter. This is why the Crimson band was so close to the window frame on both the West Riding and the more traditional teak carriages in the Master Cutler for example. The BR instructions specified the distance from the window for the crimson band, not from the cornice or the bottom edge of the sides. The specification was based on the dimensions of the MK1 proposal. An unforeseen consequence of this, was how much variation in the crimson band could be caused by the position of the windows, if the specification was followed to the letter.

 

New instructions were issued to lower the height of the band on Gresley carriages, so that it matched the position on the newly painted Thompson carriages. The latter conformed to the BR instructions as regards the distance from the window, they of course had deeper windows. As a result, carriages painted to the original specification were altered as they passed through works when a repaint was required. The application of crimson and cream on the streamliners, basically followed the original LNER livery down to the shinny beading. It was a happy happenstance that it conformed to the official BR specification for the crimson and cream livery as mentioned. The adding of the extra doors would have provided an opportune occasion to update the livery.

There was (maybe still is?) a photograph of the Huntingdon fire, hanging in the upstairs corridor of Huntingdon Fire Station, when I was working with the Brigade (not as a fireman!) in the 80s & 90s. I'd love a copy of that, maybe I'll call in again if I get chance and see if it is still there.

 

Stewart

[johndon]

9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Only eight, that's only four hundred and forty eighty tons up a very steep hill but the much larger 9Fs could only mange another 56 tons. Mind you, I've seen a US Army 2-8-0 out pull a 9F.

I suspect that the 9Fs could have managed more but the loading facility at Tyne Dock and unloading facility at Consett were limited to a maximum of 9 wagons. 
 

As an aside, at the Consett end, after the two Class 24s took over from the single 9F, they had to navigate the unloading facility at Consett slightly differently as the extra length of the 24s over the 9F was an issue for the reversing triangle.

 

John

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by johndon

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, robertcwp said:

For all we know, Hornby might have planned for BR variants in the tooling. However, I expect that many BR-era modellers would not be too bothered about the doors, although I would be. When I commissioned Brian Kirby to build a twin for Retford using a Mailcoach kit, I asked for the extra door and Brian made the necessary adjustments to accommodate it. It's worth keeping in mind that other than on the twin-first, the extra door was only on one side of each twin.

 

The much bigger difference was the removal of the valancing below solebar level. 

 

IMG_0948m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Thanks Robert,

 

When did the Mailcoach kits first come out? Near on 30 years ago? 

 

I know I built mine when they first appeared; before widespread knowledge of the extra doors was apparent. I just built them in ignorance (not good advice, but knowledge increases all the time).

 

You're right that the major difference was the removal of the streamlined fairings between the bogies (this had to be done on the Mailcoach kits as well). However, from my searching, it would appear that in BR days on some the solebars still remained covered (with the trussing exposed) but on others the solebars were exposed (a later alteration?). I know that the Thompson PV cars with covered solebars suffered from the coverings' tendency to trap moisture, and thus cause rot. Might this have happened latterly on the streamlined cars with covered solebars? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, johndon said:

I suspect that the 9Fs could have managed more but the loading facility at Tyne Dock and unloading facility at Consett were limited to a maximum of 9 wagons. 
 

As an aside, at the Consett end, after the two Class 24s took over from the single 9F, they had to navigate the unloading facility at Consett slightly differently as the extra length of the 24s over the 9F was an issue for the reversing triangle.

 

John

 

 

 There are so many sacred cows in steam railways, sometimes I can't help but laugh and give them a good old milking. In defence of the 9F, they are a wee little engine running on bad track and they  never got to pull enough hoppers due to faulty planning. Banking engines, what banking engines?

[MJI]

10 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

They all had bankers. The 9F has more horses in the horsebox but they could be quite slippy on occasion. Of course it depends how many hoppers you can fit under the loaders and over the discharge area.

 

Victory to the US consolidation as David whoops Goliaths ass in this epic confrontation. from 3.50.

 

 

 

 

The 9F had a lot worse track.

 

Would have been a fair fight if same line was used.

 

But the S160 had very good traction and the 9F a lot more power than it could put down.

 

Saw 8F mentioned as well, how about a 28xx?

 

Now I would like to see a similar head to head between a 59 and a 60.

[MJI]

Has the S160 pulled more than 2198 tonnes?

[ScRSG]

I am interested by the ex-LNER articulated coaches per the discussions above, and I wonder if any of you experts can give me details of the ones which ended up in Scotland, especially types and diagrams.

Thanks

Chas

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, ScRSG said:

I am interested by the ex-LNER articulated coaches per the discussions above, and I wonder if any of you experts can give me details of the ones which ended up in Scotland, especially types and diagrams.

Thanks

Chas

I'll let the experts answer later, if I may Chas?

 

But, I'll have a go.

 

Apart from the triplet Restaurant set, the other five ex-Silver Jubilee cars were used in the summer on the Glasgow Queen Street-St Andrews Fife Coast Express. The streamlined fairings were removed from between the bogies and the set was painted carmine/cream. There are two excellent photographs of it on pages 47 and 48 of the Banks/Carter book in this condition. The set was made up of a triplet BTK/TK/TK and a twin SFO/BFK. 

 

The train was then painted maroon in about 1957 and operated for a while longer, but when It finished I'm not sure.

 

 

Here it is in maroon, though, interestingly it does not appear to be lined, but it could have the stainless steel strip exposed at the base of the windows. This lack of lining and exposed stainless steel strip is confirmed on page 65 of LNER Carriages by Michael Harris which shows the ex-1st twin (by this time unclassified) at Newcastle on a Glasgow train. This was scrapped on Tyneside in 1962/'63, along with other streamlined cars as well as some of the '38 Flying Scotsman PV cars. Marc Models used to make all the Silver Jubilee cars, as did Mailcoach.

 

Banks/Carter tell us that the four dining twins (ex-Coronation/West Riding) RT/BTO (later RS/BSO) were used from Edinburgh in the '50s/early-'60s, principally on services to Aberdeen, where one was used on the Up Aberdonian as the leading vehicles as far as Edinburgh. I'm sure this is correct, but I'm highly-suspicious of this work, particularly in the captions where much is mis-identified. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Ollie K]

Always good to check out the ‘pre-loved’ shelves at your local model shop. Never know what you might come across!

 

 

I’ve only had a quick flick through so far but it looks like a rich tome in Sir’s inimitable style. Haven’t come across this one at exhibition booksellers before. Is this a rare gem?

 

Happy to add it to my ‘TW collection’. Really must get these autographed during the next visit of an obnoxious fast car to Little Bytham…

 

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, ScRSG said:

I am interested by the ex-LNER articulated coaches per the discussions above, and I wonder if any of you experts can give me details of the ones which ended up in Scotland, especially types and diagrams.

Thanks

Chas

Chas,

 

I think Tony has summed it up pretty well. The only other regular working in Scotland that I’m aware of is the TO-RT pairs which worked the ‘junior Scotsman’ each way (one in each set) between King’s Cross and Glasgow. 
 

Regards

 

Andy

[jwealleans]

Rupert Brown has done etches for the Silver Jubilee set and they are available from Wizard Models.

[micklner]

Worsley Works also do part kits (etches) of the Coronation, West Riding and Silver Jubilee kits

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Banks/Carter tell us that the four dining twins (ex-Coronation/West Riding) RT/BTO (later RS/BSO) were used from Edinburgh in the '50s/early-'60s, principally on services to Aberdeen, where one was used on the Up Aberdonian as the leading vehicles as far as Edinburgh.

 

Good evening Tony,

 

even earlier than that, a couple of screen grabs from that bit of film again of the Aberdonian departing Edinburgh in 1948. BTO-RT leading behind A2/2 60502. 

Notice the brackets for a single roof boards.

 

You don't actually need a repaint to run them in BR days.

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Headstock
make space.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, OliverBytham said:

Always good to check out the ‘pre-loved’ shelves at your local model shop. Never know what you might come across!

 

 

I’ve only had a quick flick through so far but it looks like a rich tome in Sir’s inimitable style. Haven’t come across this one at exhibition booksellers before. Is this a rare gem?

 

Happy to add it to my ‘TW collection’. Really must get these autographed during the next visit of an obnoxious fast car to Little Bytham…

 

I hope you enjoy it Ollie,

 

It's not rare. I wrote it when I was in full-time employment at BRM. It sold well, and any residue was then subsequently used as subs incentives. As far as I'm aware there is none left. I hope it didn't cost you too much. 

 

I think I've still got a copy here (which is unusual, since I no longer have copies of the books I wrote for Irwell). 

 

I'll happily sign any of them when you next come over, though that'll instantly devalue them!

 

Regards,

 

Tony.