Wright writes.....

[Chuffer Davies]

At long last I have completed the first test build of my latest project - an LNER J2.  As with my previous posts this model is being built to run on the Shipley Model Railway Society's Clayton layout.  As no commercial kits currently exist for this prototype I have again resorted to designing my own etches.  This has been all the more problematic because, other than a very basic frame drawing obtained from the National Railway Museum's archive, the only reference drawing available has been the Isinglass drawing which I have subsequently determined has a number of dimensional anomalies.  Fortunately from the frame drawing I was able to confirm that the frames and footplate have a lot in common with the J1, a loco I have already modelled, and so at least the frames and footplate could be accurately reproduced.  The superstructure has been more challenging but the result is certainly as accurate as the Isinglass drawing if not more so, having resolved several of the dimensional issues previously identified.

 

 

The main difference between Ivatt's J1 and J2 was the switch from slide valves to piston valves.  This necessitated raising the pitch of the boiler and extending the front of the footplate to accommodate the tail rods for the main pistons.   This also meant a redesign of the spectacle plates away from the traditional circular shape of the J1 to more of a chopped rectangular shape. 

 

Having built this model I've decided that there is too much daylight under the boiler and so I am planning to modify the design to incorporate dummy inside valve gear and slide bars.  I will therefore be building a second J2 incorporating these enhancements in due course.

 

The technical details are as follows: as usual (for me at least) this model has been built with the motor installed in the tender driving the rear axle of the loco through a drive shaft that runs under the fall plate.  The loco has a High Level 47/1 gearbox and the motor is one of the new High Level 1320 coreless units.   Current collection is the American system with the current transferred between loco and tender via the draw bar so no flying wires required.  The loco and tender utilise CSB (continuous springy beam) suspension and the wheels are from Ultrascale. 

 

Regards,

Frank 

 

     

[john new]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Still called the Olympic Stadium in certain instances though.

 

Worth bearing in mind the park it's situated in is called The Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and other football grounds don't have any problems using the word Olympic as their stadium name such as AS Roma or Hertha Berlin.

 

 

Jason

Interesting post. I did know there are variations on the blanket ban, I understand some of the exceptions are historic. One of those I have a vague memory of is the Audi car badge which might well date from the Berlin games (1936) and a few instances that pre-date IOC’s current stance.  I guess, because we had it drummed into us so strongly at work in the games build up  (I had fortunately retired by 2012), that we were not authorised to use it in any official work communications the ‘ban’ has stuck more rigidly in my brain than it might have done.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by john new

[Bernard Lamb]

27 minutes ago, john new said:

Interesting post. I did know there are variations on the blanket ban, I understand some of the exceptions are historic. One of those I have a vague memory of is the Audi car badge which might well date from the Berlin games (1936) and a few instances that pre-date IOC’s current stance.  I guess, because we had it drummed into us so strongly at work in the games build up  (I had fortunately retired by 2012), that we were not authorised to use it in any official work communications the ‘ban’ has stuck more rigidly in my brain than it might have done.

 

The airline based in Greece, in various formats over the years, seems to have no problem in using the name.

They also use the five rings.

Bernard

[geoff west]

6 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Quoting someone on my own thread “this is the most rock n roll railway thread”

 

Clearly thirsty work as well.

[FarrMan]

8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

He he, obviously aimed at the average Railway modeler?

Was he thinking of modelling 60097 himself?

 

Lloyd

[Theakerr]

Where do the fire irons on a Big Green Engine (A4, A3, A1, etc) go, assuming of course that they used fire irons?  I have looked at web pictures, my own pictures but cannot find a photo that shows them.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, FarrMan said:

Was he thinking of modelling 60097 himself?

 

Lloyd

 

Evening Lloyd,

 

no such engine.

 

45 minutes ago, Theakerr said:

Where do the fire irons on a Big Green Engine (A4, A3, A1, etc) go, assuming of course that they used fire irons?  I have looked at web pictures, my own pictures but cannot find a photo that shows them.

 

Evening Theakerr,

 

transversely across the front of the tenders forward  bulkhead.

[Tony Wright]

And now for something completely different...............

 

 

The latest BRM project; detailing/improving/weathering this Graham Farish N Gauge A2. 

 

Not my usual stuff, but, for its size, it looks a remarkably good starting point...................

[APOLLO]

33 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

And now for something completely different...............

 

 

The latest BRM project; detailing/improving/weathering this Graham Farish N Gauge A2. 

 

Not my usual stuff, but, for its size, it looks a remarkably good starting point...................

 

I'm 70 in June, I still have and occasionally run my Trix  OO gauge A2  "A H Peppercorn" which was a 21st Birthday present from my parents. Still a powerful loco (with her "bouncy" traction tyres). I wonder if today's models will last that long ?

 

I agree the Farish loco is a nice model though.

 

Brit15

[96701]

13 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Could you please finish my D2? 
 

 

I’ll see my self out… 

 

 

Before I go though…..

 

 

A short video on the new layout now that tracks laid and wiring is finished!! 

 

I've maintained the point heating at Woolmer Green, mind you it was somewhat later than your depiction, it had OLE and all that when I was there.

[FarrMan]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Lloyd,

 

no such engine.

What is Tony's photo of Humorist a wee bit above then?

 

Lloyd

[dibateg]

On 17/01/2022 at 11:52, t-b-g said:

 

 

Hello Tony,

 

The more I learn about GCR tenders the more I realise how much I don't yet know! I haven't studied the BR period much but I have picked up a few snippets of information while reading up and looking for details.

 

My understanding is that if the water scoop gear was removed that the boxes on the back (they hid the operating cranks for the scoop gear - snap attached) remained in place. Even some tenders built without water scoops had the boxes fitted in case a decision was made to fit water scoops later. Any without the boxes in the back are likely to be either ROD or pre-Robinson period Pollitt or Parker tenders.

 

 

So the boxes and coal space as per the kit look right to me.

 

For the sanding gear, not all tenders were built with it and one of the GA drawings in "Johnson" shows a Robinson tender with no sanding gear.

 

As for the sandboxes, if yours has no gear, then the footplate would look like the attached snap. This is the self trimmer on Butler Henderson, which either never had sanding gear or has had it removed.

 

 

I took quite a few detail snaps of the tender, which were useful in adding detail to my models. Not the best quality as the light was poor and it was a cheap camera but they do show a fair amount of detail.

 

I attach a couple to give you the idea. If you need anything else, let me know, I might have something suitable!

 

Cheers

 

Tony

Sorry for the delay in replying Tony - 

I was out of action with food poisoning for 24 hours - the thread always moves on a lot in that time!

 

The engine will be 64397, which was at Colwick late in it's life. I suspect it had a 3250 gallon tender (RCTS  part 5 - mine says 45/- net on the inside cover! ) . I'm not averse to ripping stuff apart to correct it, sadly this one is a little too far progressed. So that's an excuse to by a another GC loco kit in the future and swap tenders!

 

How do you tell 4000 and 3250 gallon tenders apart? The 4000 is 5' 3' &1/4 from the platform to the top of the flare, the 3250 is lower at 5' 0' & 1/4 according to the CA Reddy drawings in an ancient MRC article.

 

It think Simon is right - the rear coal plate is too high, I can fix that...

 

Thanks for that most useful information.

Regards

Tony

Edited January 19, 2022 by dibateg
Added comment

[Woodcock29]

2 hours ago, dibateg said:

Sorry for the delay in replying Tony - 

I was out of action with food poisoning for 24 hours - the thread always moves on a lot in that time!

 

The engine will be 64397, which was at Colwick late in it's life. I suspect it had a 3250 gallon tender (RCTS  part 5 - mine says 45/- net on the inside cover! ) . I'm not averse to ripping stuff apart to correct it, sadly this one is a little too far progressed. So that's an excuse to by a another GC loco kit in the future and swap tenders!

 

How do you tell 4000 and 3250 gallon tenders apart? The 4000 is 5' 3' &1/4 from the platform to the top of the flare, the 3250 is lower at 5' 0' & 1/4 according to the CA Reddy drawings in an ancient MRC article.

 

It think Simon is right - the rear coal plate is too high, I can fix that...

 

Thanks for that most useful information.

Regards

Tony

Tony

4000 gallon is right for 64397 (previously 5282) from 4/49-5/60. During that period it had tender 5004 which was originally coupled to B8 5004. The tender outlived the J11 and spent its last 12months plus attached to an O4. Source Yeadon Appendix 2 which covers in detail the GC tender allocations.

Andrew

[landscapes]

16 hours ago, Theakerr said:

Where do the fire irons on a Big Green Engine (A4, A3, A1, etc) go, assuming of course that they used fire irons?  I have looked at web pictures, my own pictures but cannot find a photo that shows them.

Hi

possibly in the corridor of the tenders in the case of the A4’s.

 

They seem to store most things in there.

 

Regards

 

David

[john new]

32 minutes ago, landscapes said:

Hi

possibly in the corridor of the tenders in the case of the A4’s.

 

They seem to store most things in there.

 

Regards

 

David

Not a BR days example but my retirement gift included a cab ride on the Mid-Hants. I was lucky enough to get Bitterne and the corridor on that day was definitely being used for storage. Another memorable thing re the tender was the drumming noise from the corridor, I had done trainee turns over the NYMR years ago before moving away and Bitterne’s tender much, much, louder than that on Black 5s, the Q6, Q7 and J27.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by john new
Punctuation corrected

[MarkC]

On 14/01/2022 at 00:26, drmditch said:

Re: Locomotive Coal

 

My coal, both for locomotives and wagon-loads, comes from my present garden, and my last one.

Both properties are in what were County Durham pit villages.

I also have a lump or two picked up on Northumberland beaches. (The meaning of 'seacoal' has changed a bit over the centuries.)

I'm still using some coal picked up on a beach at Punta Arenas, many years ago, found whilst 'taking the air' before the bars opened, waiting for my ship to dock & allow me to join her! It'll soon be finished; after that I'll be moving on to coal picked up on assorted Durham beaches during the last few years - having dogs to exercise is a wonderful excuse to go beachcombing 

[dibateg]

1 hour ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony

4000 gallon is right for 64397 (previously 5282) from 4/49-5/60. During that period it had tender 5004 which was originally coupled to B8 5004. The tender outlived the J11 and spent its last 12months plus attached to an O4. Source Yeadon Appendix 2 which covers in detail the GC tender allocations.

Andrew

Ah thank you for looking Andrew - that's most appreciated.

 

Thats my excuse for buying another GC engine kit gone! I shall have to come up with another one....

 

Regards

Tony

[65179]

2 hours ago, dibateg said:

Ah thank you for looking Andrew - that's most appreciated.

 

Thats my excuse for buying another GC engine kit gone! I shall have to come up with another one....

 

Regards

Tony

 

Do you have a better photo of 64397 than this Colour Rail one on ebay?

 

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/373788209912?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item57078372f8:g:lvkAAOSwapxgBZBH&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%2B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSafTQYbq3L7RBVAMi0K9cww7hTH%2FB5vAFk7B8XX%2BSTVk38o6qE14V6UPhixjp6NFsk9PT0w7PXt0kIYH18kWw%2Fvd%2FsqIL2qqItW5GeUo%2FpdQhRLvZAlfLaNqk76WneCvvojPhShbUq%2BRa5jGKAKH0t7ns8Xo1IOXwVJWVEppAwZ6USVO6GYztb9zQkR9ZZVf6iL6MkJ9TZPChMWHhsWKDKTHzsnoUG4eumiuQRKZu8jFeM6cC699hu3sB8OZoF%2Fd7%2FfjaasLWS4oS1Vtr6%2F8TEJdCj%2BYCQkMvfRkJzK9XkLebzNlEvSaC9BjGenlAYzKDmERV%2Fs3iJzsDVVPwB7Ha6ITgR134WDYfqngUc7bc1UeHyMSQgoCf1Cx4nscAVY%2BiWwrQx9ns6KKn6UsPInCzm47ZrRTSwUxUh7XNMyeB9%2F0qoSI1zqq3EtNazeqHax2X462uWaV1vssvjphhzOFsywrftRYzJBp%2BKn%2B3UZjP6gEIclRrHSS9ifqcvWYmBo64SUPV1IwP%2FYWIJi%2BXRFfJKDMbdiwVwuo1ZRx%2BHkN29IDxHYNEeDvVFJMNkhZH%2BZ1toEtIyNOAeNQx1hXU5UpAtmnzoDxGtCrQ3MnHiZltAJpw3wZffciIjNELT4mJGx%2BsFcx5ZF%2FR7LFHwcVV6n84jKPvi6IC9r%2BDHoWLn5bin10nf6eSAzySjCeScviKSQvxiQYDi7%2BO6gQaeF4OTBTyCPVDHcthbXKnTi6CQh0dzBwaLBBzemuq64aUh7dQVM5CTMoMk3RDX806SgW59aiIvPlFMA0W5%2FXaqUtQUME1bRJfeHKy2Hfu%2BiAwVkqY9GBY|clp%3A2334524|tkp%3ABFBMuPLdrs5f 

 

If so it might just be worth checking that the front tender footplate and front tender handrails were altered when 64397 got Glenalmond's tender. The tender was built 'wide' so with the slight bulge of the running plate over the front steps and turned out handrails shown in Tony's self-trimming tender photos (albeit otherwise normal and lacking the wider tank, smaller flare etc of the self-trimming type). I suspect it's a trick of the light/muck that makes it appear there might be a bulge in the photo. If it was changed then that might be a good pointer to the toolbox and sandboxes being removed at the same time (instructions to remove pick up apparatus on J11s were issued in 1939). I still suspect it has the lower rear division plate/coalplate. B8s were built with solid beaded coal guards rather than coalrails so at least you don't need to worry about that minefield!

 

Simon

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by 65179

[Tony Wright]

Two manifestations of Hornby's latest rebuilt W1s have just arrived for photography/review; one in LNER blue and one in BR green.

 

More later...................

[31A]

On 18/01/2022 at 20:10, Theakerr said:

Where do the fire irons on a Big Green Engine (A4, A3, A1, etc) go, assuming of course that they used fire irons?  I have looked at web pictures, my own pictures but cannot find a photo that shows them.

 

I think they're stored transversely across the front of the tender, on big hooks either side of the coal doors.

 

[t-b-g]

11 hours ago, dibateg said:

Sorry for the delay in replying Tony - 

I was out of action with food poisoning for 24 hours - the thread always moves on a lot in that time!

 

The engine will be 64397, which was at Colwick late in it's life. I suspect it had a 3250 gallon tender (RCTS  part 5 - mine says 45/- net on the inside cover! ) . I'm not averse to ripping stuff apart to correct it, sadly this one is a little too far progressed. So that's an excuse to by a another GC loco kit in the future and swap tenders!

 

How do you tell 4000 and 3250 gallon tenders apart? The 4000 is 5' 3' &1/4 from the platform to the top of the flare, the 3250 is lower at 5' 0' & 1/4 according to the CA Reddy drawings in an ancient MRC article.

 

It think Simon is right - the rear coal plate is too high, I can fix that...

 

Thanks for that most useful information.

Regards

Tony

 

Hello Tony. Sorry to hear about the food poisoning. Perhaps those dodgy kebabs on a night out!

 

I read somewhere that the only difference between the 3250 and the 4000 Gallon types was the height. All other dimensions were the same. 

 

Don't be too quick to cut down the rear coal plate. I don't have a GA for a 3250 Gallon tender but as it now seems that it should be a 4,000 Gallon one, I do have a GA for that and the rear coal plate should be level with the very top of the upper side sheets.

 

This is my 4mm model based on a Judith Edge etched kit and is correct to the GA. The only things it lacks are the T section supports for the top side sheets which are included on the 7mm kit. The arrangement of the rear coal plate and boxes/handles are what yours should look like. You can just see the second fire iron bracket halfway along the top side sheet, which is a simple metal strip and which doesn't get put on many models.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by t-b-g
correct typo

[Woodcock29]

7 hours ago, dibateg said:

Ah thank you for looking Andrew - that's most appreciated.

 

Thats my excuse for buying another GC engine kit gone! I shall have to come up with another one....

 

Regards

Tony

I don't think you really need an excuse, I never have!

[EHertsGER]

On 15/01/2022 at 03:26, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

As a designer of a number of etched kits, are you implying that I am a fiendish madman, intent on bringing mental anguish to the modelling community?

 

not you specifically, but un-named conspirators that have gone before...

[65179]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

Hello Tony. Sorry to hear about the food poisoning. Perhaps those dodgy kebabs on a night out!

 

I read somewhere that the only difference between the 3250 and the 4000 Gallon types was the height. All other dimensions were the same. 

 

Don't be too quick to cut down the rear coal plate. I don't have a GA for a 3250 Gallon tender but as it now seems that it should be a 4,000 Gallon one, I do have a GA for that and the rear coal plate should be level with the very top of the upper side sheets.

 

This is my 4mm model based on a Judith Edge etched kit and is correct to the GA. The only things it lacks are the T section supports for the top side sheets which are included on the 7mm kit. The arrangement of the rear coal plate and boxes/handles are what yours should look like. You can just see the second fire iron bracket halfway along the top side sheet, which is a simple metal strip and which doesn't get put on many models.

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on the build Tony. All 4000 gallon tenders (ignoring the self trimming ones) are not the same. If you've got the Yeadon for the GC 4-6-0s (vol22) then have a look at the tenders behind the B5 on page 76 and the B9s in the process of being scrapped on pages 122 and 125. All are 4000 gallon and have the lower coalplate and differ from those that the later B3s were equipped with.

 

Regards,

Simon

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

It depends on the build Tony. All 4000 gallon tenders (ignoring the self trimming ones) are not the same. If you've got the Yeadon for the GC 4-6-0s (vol22) then have a look at the tenders behind the B5 on page 76 and the B9s in the process of being scrapped on pages 122 and 125. All are 4000 gallon and have the lower coalplate and differ from those that the later B3s were equipped with.

 

Regards,

Simon

 

We have already established that there were lots of variations in GCR tenders and there were certainly some with a low rear coal plate. You can see them easier in earlier days when they had coal rails rather than side plates.

 

There are, to my knowledge, several different GA drawings for the supposedly "standard" 4,000 Gallon tender, which show variations in sanding gear, water pick up gear etc. so maybe there is one out there with the low coal plate that I haven't got. 

 

Just looking at the ones you mention, one has a very unusual double row of visible rivets attaching the front footsteps. One has the coal rails plated over of the outside with no beading around the outside edge. Just in that tiny sample, there are differences.

 

So they are a minefield of variations and if there is any pattern that has been established or documentation to say which ones had high coal plates and which ones the low version then I haven't seen it.

 

It is hard for anybody to be 100% sure so all I would say is that unless there is firm evidence that the loco Tony Geary is modelling had a low rear coal plate tender in the period that he is modelling it, then it is hard to say that the full height one is wrong.