Wright writes.....

[Horsetan]

..........and Tony, at least you actually have a layout! There is a mighty duck that posts on here that only has some bits of wood and a million   far too many boxes of stock/rail/scenic stuff/rubbish/dead rats..........

*hollow laughter*

[raymw]

Thanks Judge, more grist to the mill

 

Anyway, just having measured up a couple of poles I have lying around (wooden, not Eastern European) length is  38 feet, diam at base 12inches, top 8 inches - another one about same length (too many nettles to hack through) top D of 10inches, butt 14. Now, about 4 to 5ft of the 38 would be in the ground, but the taper is more or less constant in the length.

 

If we say that Tony's  'I wish I'd never started this' pole is, say, 20ft high than the top would be 2 inches smaller in diameter than at ground level. That's about two thirds of a mm over 80mm length for 4mm scale.

 

fwiw, the J bolt is to line up the insulator with the cross arm. If the insulator was on the more normal pin, then there would be a moment about the cross arm, which would twist it off the pole. I've not found a swan neck illustration for power lines, I seem to remember we removed all we found. iirc the insulator could crack, leaving the conductor pulling on and in direct contact with the pin. This stressed the other phase insulators, and sometimes the protection would operate, sometimes not. The advantage was that swan necks allowed standard insulators and bindings.

 

I can't find a picture of 'swan balls' either. They were usually orange, originally the plastic ball in your lavatory ball cock, bound on to mid spans of power lines, so the swans could see the lines, and not fly into them. Not always worked, occasionally had to divert the lines.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[HerbertHopkins]

Tony,

 

There's an old saying 'If it looks right, it is right!'. Looking at the photos in post 2888 of the prototype and then the model, it looks pretty good to me. So, if you're happy with it, I'd be inclined to leave well alone if I were you. I agree that the post looks a little on the thin side, but that shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

 

Compared to all that wire and post fencing that some idiot has agreed to install for you it should be a doddle! 

 

Regards

 

Rob

[Tony Wright]

I am in awe of the breadth of knowledge shown with regard to the various manifestations of telegraph poles and their myriad fittings. Thank you ever so much gentlemen for your first-hand experiences and lucidity in explanations. I'm beginning to think that Ray's 'I wish I'd never started this' pole comment has monumental validity. But, for the moment it'll remain as it is. The pole actually tapers by the way - not uniformly, of course, because it's made from three different sizes of brass rod, soldered at strategic places.

 

To further confound the situation, I've just installed the run of poles beside Station Road (pictures to follow). These, I assume, are for domestic use and consist of only one cross rail, with two insulators each side, at least up to The Willoughby. Two have a stay, making a triangular arrangement (explanation, please), and none is perpendicular with its neighbour. To even further confound the situation, I've installed some of the poles on the 'wrong' side of the road; because fat bellies resting on the edge of the baseboard nearest the road would soon demolish them! It looks like the prototype run crosses over the road nearer the pub (is this normal?), so I've just carried on the further side for the poles' protection. Is this heretical?

 

The next series of postings will involve the completion of my B12/3. This has a Westinghouse pump on its offside footplate, adjacent to the cab. As far as I can tell, this has four principal pipes going in and out of it. I've fudged it together from pictures, but I'll be most interested in comments as to whether it's right. A model of the second P2 is on the go, then a 9F (the pipework under the fireman's side of the cab should be fun!), and finally a L&NWR 0-8-4T. I await comments as these proceed with great anticipation.

[coachmann]

................and finally a L&NWR 0-8-4T. I await comments as these proceed with great anticipation.

Great. Are you wrapping etched tanks and bunker around a Bachmann G2..........................................? 

[Clive Mortimore]

HI Tony

 

Back to your telegraph pole, using information from "Railway Signalling and Communcations"  (I have 1st edition, at the costly sum of 8/-). It is possibly a stout pole with that number of lines. I have calculated that it would be a minimum height of 27 ft 9ins from rail level. Lowest arm at 17ft because the wires are crossing a railway, then 10 arms at 1 ft apart plus 9ins from the highest arm to the top of the mast. Give another foot or so for difference between the rail height and ground level rounded up is a pole that is 29ft above ground level. The book gives a depth of 5ft 6 ins of pole below ground level.

 

It also gives the diameter of the poles. A stout pole is 7 1/2 to 9 1/2 at the top and 10 3/4 at a point 5 ft from the butt.

 

If your ploe is a medium, it has stays and the book states that a stayed medium can be used in place of a stout pole, the diameter at the top is 6 to 7 1/4ins and 8 3/4ins, five feet from the butt. 

 

I hope this helps (with the wish I hadn't made it with this lot viewing what I have done).

 

I think this is too late to show you.

[Tony Wright]

Great. Are you wrapping etched tanks and bunker around a Bachmann G2..........................................? 

Good idea, but it's a complete Brassmasters' kit, with a round-topped firebox. 

 

It's also to be built in EM Gauge.

[PGC]

.......................The next series of postings will involve the completion of my B12/3. This has a Westinghouse pump on its offside footplate, adjacent to the cab. As far as I can tell, this has four principal pipes going in and out of it. I've fudged it together from pictures, but I'll be most interested in comments as to whether it's right. .....................then a 9F (the pipework under the fireman's side of the cab should be fun!)

 

Tony

 

I suspect you'll already be aware, but Alan Gibson does a lost wax casting for a Westinghouse pump which is what I've used here.

 

 

I also suspect you're aware that, John Brighton, under his Steamline banner, user to produce casting for BR Standard pipework. I believe he's passed the castings on to someone else now, but I think they're still available. They are what was used on this, you may remember taking the photo? It was when you visited the Barking club many years ago!

 

 

Phil

 

PS - Those who know me as a BR GER modeller will wonder why I had a Scottish Brittania. It's now been renumbered to 70053 Moray Firth which can justifiably run on ex GER metals as it spent 3 months on the lines in the late 50's doing speedometer test trials. Also, the tender lining has been corrected!

Edited November 2, 2014 by PGC

[Andy Y]

It's certainly not an intention to prolong the insulator discussion but I thought I may as well file these images here for the reference of others if needed. I was at Bridgnorth yesterday so it was a chance to get a couple of close-ups of the post I'd linked to earlier.

 

 

 

[Andy Y]

 

 

telepole.png

I think this is too late to show you.

 

A useful explanatory diagram which helps explains to me why the cross-arms on the images above are not on the Up side of the post (as normal posts have).

[Judge Dread]

A useful explanatory diagram which helps explains to me why the cross-arms on the images above are not on the Up side of the post (as normal posts have).

It would depend on what you would term as "normal"? Here's one from my collection which I have trimmed so as to hide the reason why this pole is as it is but it may cause one or two to scratch their heads. It's 1952, Hedon Road in Hull.   

Why this pole is so lop sided is as far as I can because the Post Office telephones, as they were in those days, were required to move their pole to allow the building of the Graving Dock signal box but they thought it cheaper to just move wires over.

The BR termination pole is at the top of the embankment on the other side of the cabin.

I thank Young Mick Nick for the use of these photographs.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Judge Dread

[Clive Mortimore]

It would depend on what you would term as "normal"? Here's one from my collection which I have trimmed so as to hide the reason why this pole is as it is but it may cause one or two to scratch their heads. It's 1952, Hedon Road in Hull.   

Lop sided pole c1952.JPG

Young Mick Nick is barred from posting!

Hull and normal in the same paragraph

[LNER4479]

It's certainly not an intention to prolong the insulator discussion but I thought I may as well file these images here for the reference of others if needed. I was at Bridgnorth yesterday so it was a chance to get a couple of close-ups of the post I'd linked to earlier.

 

pots1.jpg

 

pots2.jpg

 

pots3.jpg

Well unless I'm fundamentally misinterpreting Andy's pictures then top marks to the SVR for 'preserving' this aspect of the traditional railway. It would (presumably?) be so much easier to bury the whole lot in a series of concrete trunking routes by the side of the tracks? Thanks for posting, Andy.

[Mallard60022]

Standard Class pipework stuff went to our late friend Geoff's Comet Models. I am sure we all hope that all the stuff at Comet, including these helpful detailing kits will soon be back 'on the market' but it is understandable that, just at the moment, trading is suspended.

RIP Geoff.

Phil R

Edited November 2, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Tony Wright]

Tony

 

I suspect you'll already be aware, but Alan Gibson does a lost wax casting for a Westinghouse pump which is what I've used here.

 

E4 ii.jpg

 

I also suspect you're aware that, John Brighton, under his Steamline banner, user to produce casting for BR Standard pipework. I believe he's passed the castings on to someone else now, but I think they're still available. They are what was used on this, you may remember taking the photo? It was when you visited the Barking club many years ago!

 

Dornoch Firth.jpg

 

Phil

 

PS - Those who know me as a BR GER modeller will wonder why I had a Scottish Brittania. It's now been renumbered to 70053 Moray Firth which can justifiably run on ex GER metals as it spent 3 months on the lines in the late 50's doing speedometer test trials. Also, the tender lining has been corrected!

Thanks Phil,

 

I've used the casting provided, which is lost-wax brass. I have a turned-brass Markits one but it's too big for a B12/3. The pipework is fusewire.

 

I do remember taking the shot of your Britannia; if I recall it was on a layout representing part of a coast scene, but the memory fades!

 

As Mallard Phil has posted, John Brighton's superb detailing bits went to Comet. Let's hope that the business continues eventually, though, as Phil has so rightly put, it is understandable that trading is suspended.

 

Thanks to others, too, for the further info' on the telegraph poles. I can't see my ever making the sort photographed by Andy, even though they're correct for THAT post. Today, I've made the one for the other side. It's taller, has more rails but with shorter arms, but there are still over 80 insulators. Fortunately, they appear to be the 'more conventional' style, with the insulators clearly above the rails. 

 

I have to say, with the two now in place, from normal viewing distances (not too close-up) my 'upside' down pole looks like the prototype picture (especially now it's got its top cap), because from four feet and more away the swan-necks would hardly be visible. Yesterday, three chums from the Ebor Group in York visited, and I showed them the post and the prototype picture (not my picture of the post, though). All agreed that it looked 'right', because they viewed it as part of an overall scene. And that, I suppose, is how I approach my general modelling. If that offends the purists, then so be it. 

 

I have to say, I feel I'm 'wasting' far too much precious modelling time just posting - interesting though the discussions are on this thread. With this in mind, I'll take a step back for now; not because I'm put out by the constructive criticisms - far from it, they've widened by breadth of knowledge considerably, and my thanks to all who've responded. The expertise shown has been staggering, and it proves the immense value of a site like this. In fact, it's because of RMeb that I've been able to keep in touch with what's happening in the hobby - my most grateful thanks to Andy for starting me off. However, it's because I'm now making models again, photographing them in step-by-step mode, writing about them for publication, attending shows, sorting through thousands of blue/grey slides of mine and writing text/captions for them for future publication, enjoying the company of good friends to operate the layout and helping more and more folk with their model-making or photography that my time is used up.

 

I consider all of the above very important, and they're all time-consuming indeed.  

[coachmann]

Thanks for all your input Tony over the past two years, which I for one have enjoyed reading for their honesty.  Good modelling threads are not as thick on the ground as they once were, but taking photos, resizing and captioning then is no short task and so stepping back at this stage of the game is fully understandable. I would like to see your B12 and LNWR design 0-8-4T when completed though.

Edited November 2, 2014 by coachmann

[DougN]

Tony, 

 

I have to say your thread is inspirational none the less for your approach to modelling and speed with which things move on (yes with help or without  ). It is a pleasure to read and interact where appropriate, without having to wait a month for another installment! As I have been reading your articles since the late 1980's and enjoy your writing and subjects. I would like to get back to modelling and writing about things as I find it encourages both! I look forward to the next installment!

[Judge Dread]

Thanks Judge, more grist to the mill

 

Anyway, just having measured up a couple of poles

 

  

 

 

 

You didn't need to do that, poles should have their size cut into the side of them along with a horizontal mark to indicate they are buried at the right depth if that mark is at average eye level. Hull Telephones, however, did have an installer who was only 5ft 2ins. Perfect as a "scrum half" in the works rugby team but too short to see any mark unless he stood on a box.

Having said all that, I thought I would walk across the road and photograph our local D.P. (Distribution Point) but it is a new one, a large new one for our new fibre system and it only has a disc nailed to it with the relevant  info on it which I cannot read or get a half decent shot of !

Edited November 3, 2014 by Judge Dread

[raymw]

HI Judge, The markings which you mention are not visible on the poles that I measured, and iirc said markings did not give the top/bottom diameter (I think it was, length of pole, year of manufacture, supplier and diameter (maybe a s/m/l or similar). I expect, in earlier times, the markings would depend on the utility company purchasing said poles. Surely I don't have to go further afield and find an erected pole?   There are a couple of spindly telephone poles at bottom of lane, afaik.

 

Personally, I was glad to get out of the electricity supply industry 18 years ago, it having been privatised and sold off to an American company. Got early retirement at 49yrs old, so that was a great benefit to me, but not financially.

 

I was thinking of starting a topic on electricity supply distribution, telegraph poles and the like, but I expect it would get sidetracked into talking about trains.

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for the extra info' on the poles. I think I'll retain much in the way of ignorance for now, but I have learned a substantial amount and my thanks are sincere. But, I have to be practical. Each one-off complex post takes me about three hours to make, paint, paint the insulators and then weather. All the poles are unique, and there are 15 of them, not to mention the dozen or more domestic ones down the side of the road, and the five or so on the M&GNR. So, 45 hours to do the main railway ones, plus about ten more for the smaller, though none-less individual ones on the M&GNR - I can build a Pacific in less time than that! If I were to make all those swan-necks, over 200 I would think, I believe it would take at least 12-15 hours to make each pole. Because I'm not going to, I hope observers aren't too disappointed and think that Little Bytham is substantially less-worthy. I acknowledge constructive criticisms, but, in this case, pragmatism takes precedence. 

 

 

 

Pragmatism in the form of the pole to the right of these pictures. It's made up of four Ratio ones, altered and glued together. It has the right number of cross-rails, but the arrangement is wrong. The real one (different from all its brethren), has rails of different lengths, some of those rails having just one (or two, or three) insulators on them, some of which might be swan-necked. They're not all equally spaced either. But, to heck with the pole (and the rest), it's the locos/trains which are more important to me. I never spotted a telegraph pole in my life, and only this morning took note of the one opposite our house. I must have looked at it for the last ten years and never noticed!

 

Locos like this B1, which Geoff West brought today as part of his 'education'. He's just starting having a go at making models (as no spring chicken), and this Bachmann B1 is his work. Last month I helped him with the installation of the electric lighting stuff, and he then took it away as 'homework'. He's renumbered it as appropriate (Ian Wilson's front numberplate really works), close-coupled the tender and weathered it. It was my pleasure to photograph it today. He doesn't bleat about not having ability, is prepared to learn and really have a go. In the new year he'll begin his first loco kit. If I can pass on just a smidgen of info' to blokes like him, then it'll be a tiny way of returning something to the hobby for all it's given me. But, it only works if the pupils are prepared to do things for themselves. Giving in isn't an option! The hobby has to be more to me than just buying things. To model is a verb. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by Tony Wright

[BlackRat]

Martyn Welch, of Hursley fame, used to own a model shop in Plymouth.

 

I had the benefit of knowing him as a pal, and visiting his home and running Hursley, as well as buying stuff from the shop (Blue Peter).

 

I was admiring his brake van, a Slaters jobby so bought the kit from him.

 

Uncertain of where all the brake rigging went I asked Martin for his advice.

 

Don't fit it, you,can't see it so I didn't bother!

 

So if it looks right, well that's ok isn't it!

 

And let's remember, the van appeared in numerous mags, was at the MRJ exhibition and had everyone wetting their pants!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I'm reminded of the great W. Allen McClelland who designed, built and operated a pretty darn good HO scale layout.  His philosophy was best described as 'three foot modelling'.  If it couldn't be seen from three feet away, it didn't get modelled, on the basis that given the overall aspiration was to build a large operating layout anything that didn't contribute to the overall consistency of the project or slowed it down was culled.

 

The key was consistency in all elements, not fine detailing in some areas and not others. 

 

I think his results over the past 40 years speak for themselves.

 

My personal observation is that we have become enslaved by the tyranny of the digital camera.  A lot of folk seem to be trying to model in a way that satisfies its ability to produce crystal clear images many times bigger than the actual model.  

 

Me, I'm modelling to suit my own eyesight, levels of patience and time available.

[Mallard60022]

http://www.expressmodels.co.uk/acatalog/4mm_Scale_Hand_Made_Telegraph_Poles.html

 

As those poles are such a fag Tony, how about speaking to this firm?

I haven't yet, but I have commissioned some Yard lamps from RM Lectronics and the cost of production of an almost new lamp to their range is not going to exterminate my bank account. Maybe these guys at Express Models could produce something for you that, in turn, could be added to their range?

Just a thought. My opinion is that telegraph poles are really important, especially when they are in 'full view', but if someone else has the ability to make them just as you need them and as life is too short, get them to do them for you, or at least some of them!

I understand that some folk will damn me for this opinion, however that is how I do things. Horses for courses. 

(P.S. The real reason is that I am too damn lazy to build telegraph poles.....well, I might do some easy ones with only a couple of 'beams'

Phil

 

[Taz]

.....

My personal observation is that we have become enslaved by the tyranny of the digital camera.  A lot of folk seem to be trying to model in a way that satisfies its ability to produce crystal clear images many times bigger than the actual model.  

 

.....

 

I think this is an interesting and very valid point.

If you are building just for yourself and maybe a few friends enjoyment then I agree that modelling to what you can see from  3 foot is a perfectly valid and sensible way to go. However if you have one eye on perhaps getting your layout published in one of the mags one day then it could pay to consider what things look like up close and larger than life.

 

I also think this can counteract one of Tony's fears, that modelling skills are on the decrease as RTR improves. You may not need to build as much stock as before to get the layout you want, but you now have a reason to put more time and effort into the detail levels of the whole layout, adding stuff to a standard that you may struggle to see with the naked eye (at 3' plus) but which stands up to close scrutiny and the digital lens. 

[coachmann]

My personal observation is that we have become enslaved by the tyranny of the digital camera.  A lot of folk seem to be trying to model in a way that satisfies its ability to produce crystal clear images many times bigger than the actual model.  

I couldn't disagree more Mr.Fritters. How often I have photographed a model ready for uploading into a thread only to see very plainly that something was poorly modelled. There would be no point in 'photoshopping' it correct, as it might fool viewers but it wouldn't fool me! Correcting detail is part of the pleasure of modelling and so for this chappy the advent of the digital camera actually made him improve his modelling.