Wright writes.....

[Chamby]

2 hours ago, Bob Reid said:

 

In the case of Hornby's DCC fitted loco's (sound or otherwise) you certainly should.  The instructions will tell you they should operate on both DC or DCC except it appears someone forgot to tell the factory....  The J36 I bought had exactly the same problem so preferring to run them in on DC before using them on DCC, I was surprised to find it didn't do exactly as it said on the tin.  One of the DCC variables has been incorrectly set. CV29 will have been set at 2 (as it was on the J36) or a number other than the correct number 6. To change it you either need someone with a DCC controller to set CV29 to 6 or replace the Decoder with a blanking plate.

 

Bob

 

Yes, but if you are using Relco’s or similar devices, the chip gets fried (so it won’t then work).

[Bob Reid]

20 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

Yes, but if you are using Relco’s or similar devices, the chip gets fried (so it won’t then work).

 

You can hardly blame Hornby for you buying a DCC fitted loco for use on a DC layout with a Relco or similar attached, especially when you know what it does to them!  Buy the DCC Ready version or replace the decoder with a blanking plate as I suggested.

[t-b-g]

9 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Tony,

 

a difficult one. Should we offer constructive comments? If done in a friendly and positive way, then yes. It's great when it leads to an interesting and friendly conversation. The difficulty is how to express it so that comments don't seem negative.

 

In offering constructive criticism, we are effectively suggesting someone should change the way they go about things. That might be researching the prototype, how they make and paint their models, operate the layout, how it is presented and so on. How well someone does that depends on their negotiating skills.

 

It is when criticism or comments are given to show off the viewers "expertise", in an unpleasant way, or just to say you have it wrong,  that it becomes unproductive and annoying. If you aren't sure how your comments will be received, perhaps to is best to say nothing. Yet that might not help others to "improve" their modelling (assuming they wish to do so). 

 

Jol

 

I offer you a fictitious scenario. I have taken my latest layout to its first show. I have been under a bit of pressure time wise and I haven't finished all the appropriate locos and stock so I have borrowed some that are out of area and timescale. The signals are built and on but I didn't have time to get them working. I haven't got around to the point rodding. Otherwise the layout is reasonably well finished and operational.

 

OK, so far that is nothing fictional! I and many others have been there.

 

If every punter at that show then came up and made helpful constructive comments in a positive way about the stock, signals and point rodding, it would do my head in!

 

I don't exhibit layouts to find out what I could have done better. I do it to have a pleasant weekend amongst people who share my interests and hopefully to give some enjoyment to fellow operators and members of the public who have paid to see the show. Being reminded of things I haven't finished or didn't get quite right is not my idea of a pleasant weekend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by t-b-g

[Mallard60022]

26 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I offer you a fictitious scenario. I have taken my latest layout to its first show. I have been under a bit of pressure time wise and I haven't finished all the appropriate locos and stock so I have borrowed some that are out of area and timescale. The signals are built and on but I didn't have time to get them working. I haven't got around to the point rodding. Otherwise the layout is reasonably well finished and operational.

 

OK, so far that is nothing fictional! I and many others have been there.

 

If every punter at that show then came up and made helpful constructive comments in a positive way about the stock, signals and point rodding, it would do my head in!

 

I don't exhibit layouts to find out what I could have done better. I do it to have a pleasant weekend amongst people who share my interests and hopefully to give some enjoyment to fellow operators and members of the public who have paid to see the show. Being reminded of things I haven't finished or didn't get quite right is not my idea of a pleasant weekend.

 

 

Agreed. I think if I were in that situation I would try to make a poster to stick on the front saying something like.....

"Apologies but I am still finishing things on the layout and so, many things may not be as you would wish them to be. If you have the time to leave me a note about something you notice then please do so. Thanks."

 

If someone insisted on telling me something I'd be assertive and refer them to the Poster. I'd happily upset a few and have many others understand my situation. If they left a note I'd smile and say thank you.  However, that may be the situation for the first couple of hours but after that I might just become temporarily 'hearing impaired@ ( I am actually just that so I am not being rude or thoughtless!)

Phil

Edited April 13, 2019 by Mallard60022

[asmay2002]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

If every punter at that show then came up and made helpful constructive comments in a positive way about the stock, signals and point rodding, it would do my head in!

 

I don't exhibit layouts to find out what I could have done better. I do it to have a pleasant weekend amongst people who share my interests and hopefully to give some enjoyment to fellow operators and members of the public who have paid to see the show. Being reminded of things I haven't finished or didn't get quite right is not my idea of a pleasant weekend.

It all depends on how you use the interaction with the punters.  It can be fun meeting new people and talking to them.  You might even find out new things that you don't know.  I certainly have.  

[Headstock]

 

I can't say that I've ever come across any of the gangs of marauding model railway critics, phantom sniggeres or even Big foot while exhibiting. I must be extreamly lucky or deeply intimidating.

 

Ohh, dose Tony count?

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Just noticed this pic (excellent) on a previous set of posts Tony and I noticed the '80' limit sign by the North box. The reason I mention it is I though there was a 65mph limit over the flat crossing at 36E and this sign is only 500/600 yards north of that crossing. Seems a little odd?

Phil

Not so odd when you think about it.  As '31A' has said the sign marks where the line speed goes up to 80mph.  But just as importantly it is sufficiently far from the flat crossing to ensure that the complete train (of the sort that was permitted to run at 80mph) was clear of the lower restriction over the flat crossing.

[t-b-g]

11 hours ago, asmay2002 said:

It all depends on how you use the interaction with the punters.  It can be fun meeting new people and talking to them.  You might even find out new things that you don't know.  I certainly have.  

 

I agree 100%. One of the nicest things that has happened to me in the hobby was when somebody mentioned how good they thought I was at engaging with people at shows. I usually come away from one with some new knowledge.

 

It is just as easy to start a conversation without it involving picking fault.

 

If everybody engaged in this "helpful" correctional behaviour. It would be a nightmare. As there is no way of deciding who should or shouldn't do it, I prefer to avoid it altogether unless invited to do so.

 

As for posters, I have done that. I once put one up explaining, amongst other things, that for the purpose of a show, NLR wasn't the North London but the little known North Lincolnshire Railway.

 

I just don't like the idea of self experienced experts going around telling lesser mortals that they should try to be better than they are. Unsolicited. I have no problem with modellers helping others to be better at what they do if both agree to engage in that way.

 

If a modeller has sweated blood over building something and has got it 99% right. Who am I to gently draw their attention to the 1% they didn't manage, perhaps ruining their satisfaction in what they have achieved. Unless they ask me what I think of it, when I will do so gently and in a constructive way.

[CF MRC]

12 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I offer you a fictitious scenario. I have taken my latest layout to its first show. I have been under a bit of pressure time wise and I haven't finished all the appropriate locos and stock so I have borrowed some that are out of area and timescale. The signals are built and on but I didn't have time to get them working. I haven't got around to the point rodding. Otherwise the layout is reasonably well finished and operational.

 

OK, so far that is nothing fictional! I and many others have been there.

 

If every punter at that show then came up and made helpful constructive comments in a positive way about the stock, signals and point rodding, it would do my head in!

 

I don't exhibit layouts to find out what I could have done better. I do it to have a pleasant weekend amongst people who share my interests and hopefully to give some enjoyment to fellow operators and members of the public who have paid to see the show. Being reminded of things I haven't finished or didn't get quite right is not my idea of a pleasant weekend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

‘Unfinished’ layouts on exhibition are fine by my book, as we have been exhibiting CF in that state for the last thirty odd years.  We only attend a couple of shows a year and the layout always has something new added to it; indeed we get people actively ‘spotting’ the new stuff, if they haven’t seen CF for a while.  What is important is that the display should be neat and homogeneous, so that people can see the finished bits and understand where the unfinished bits are headed.  If we hadn’t worked on this principle and waited for the layout to be complete, hell would have frozen over - it is part of the incentive to keep the project going.

 

We usually have an operator out front who sits quite low and runs Mrs W’s yard.  Watching the trains run through Belle Isle is an excellent place to be: not only do you get the best seat in town but you also have fascinating conversations with the public.  I have learnt a lot from these enjoyable chats, but sometimes pressing matters mean that you really must attend to something at the back - until the coast has cleared...

 

Tim

 

 

Tim

Edited April 14, 2019 by CF MRC

[Clive Mortimore]

10 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I agree 100%. One of the nicest things that has happened to me in the hobby was when somebody mentioned how good they thought I was at engaging with people at shows. I usually come away from one with some new knowledge.

 

It is just as easy to start a conversation without it involving picking fault.

 

If everybody engaged in this "helpful" correctional behaviour. It would be a nightmare. As there is no way of deciding who should or shouldn't do it, I prefer to avoid it altogether unless invited to do so.

 

As for posters, I have done that. I once put one up explaining, amongst other things, that for the purpose of a show, NLR wasn't the North London but the little known North Lincolnshire Railway.

 

I just don't like the idea of self experienced experts going around telling lesser mortals that they should try to be better than they are. Unsolicited. I have no problem with modellers helping others to be better at what they do if both agree to engage in that way.

 

If a modeller has sweated blood over building something and has got it 99% right. Who am I to gently draw their attention to the 1% they didn't manage, perhaps ruining their satisfaction in what they have achieved. Unless they ask me what I think of it, when I will do so gently and in a constructive way.

In the days of me lugging Hanging Hill about I use to get drivers and loco fitters complimenting me on my attention to detail and they would mention how things were at there depot. I would take this on board and next time out hopefully incorporate what they had said into the model. At one show a chap said "That wasn't like that at my shed", to which I replied "Oh, a fitter told me how it should be arranged". To which he said "Must have been a Stratford bloke."

 

Even taking advice form those who worked on the railway sometimes you can be right and wrong at the same time.

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

‘Unfinished’ layouts on exhibition are fine by my book, as we have been exhibiting CF in that state for the last thirty odd years.  We only attend a couple of shows a year and the layout always has something new added to it; indeed we get people actively ‘spotting’ the new stuff, if they haven’t seen CF for a while.  What is important is that the display should be neat and homogeneous, so that people can see the finished bits and understand where the unfinished bits are headed.  If we hadn’t worked on this principle and waited for the layout to be complete, hell would have frozen over - it is part of the incentive to keep the project going.

 

We usually have an operator out front who sits quite low and runs Mrs W’s yard.  Watching the trains run through Belle Isle is an excellent place to be: not only do you get the best seat in town but you also have fascinating conversations with the public.  I have learnt a lot from these enjoyable chats, but sometimes pressing matters mean that you really must attend to something at the back - until the coast has cleared...

 

Tim

 

 

Tim

 

That works really well at shows Tim and we do something similar with Leighton Buzzard and we used to with Narrow Road.

 

I just don't think that front of house operator would want to be there if every punter helpfully pointed out that the GNR trains shouldn't really appear with the P2 and that at the time such and such a train ran, the signalling would have been different and that you might not be aware but those buildings shouldn't be just there, all done very helpfully and constructively!

[Headstock]

25 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

That works really well at shows Tim and we do something similar with Leighton Buzzard and we used to with Narrow Road.

 

I just don't think that front of house operator would want to be there if every punter helpfully pointed out that the GNR trains shouldn't really appear with the P2 and that at the time such and such a train ran, the signalling would have been different and that you might not be aware but those buildings shouldn't be just there, all done very helpfully and constructively!

 

Morning Tim,

you run GNR trains with the P2? How outrageously subversive. You should be working for the Ministry of truth."Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.''

[Bucoops]

46 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

In the days of me lugging Hanging Hill about I use to get drivers and loco fitters complimenting me on my attention to detail and they would mention how things were at there depot. I would take this on board and next time out hopefully incorporate what they had said into the model. At one show a chap said "That wasn't like that at my shed", to which I replied "Oh, a fitter told me how it should be arranged". To which he said "Must have been a Stratford bloke."

 

Even taking advice form those who worked on the railway sometimes you can be right and wrong at the same time.

 

There's the Stratford way, and there's the wrong way

[t-b-g]

8 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Tim,

you run GNR trains with the P2? How outrageously subversive. You should be working for the Ministry of truth."Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.''

 

I know. What history tinkering rebels they are!

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

‘Unfinished’ layouts on exhibition are fine by my book, as we have been exhibiting CF in that state for the last thirty odd years.  We only attend a couple of shows a year and the layout always has something new added to it; indeed we get people actively ‘spotting’ the new stuff, if they haven’t seen CF for a while.  What is important is that the display should be neat and homogeneous, so that people can see the finished bits and understand where the unfinished bits are headed.  If we hadn’t worked on this principle and waited for the layout to be complete, hell would have frozen over - it is part of the incentive to keep the project going.

 

We usually have an operator out front who sits quite low and runs Mrs W’s yard.  Watching the trains run through Belle Isle is an excellent place to be: not only do you get the best seat in town but you also have fascinating conversations with the public.  I have learnt a lot from these enjoyable chats, but sometimes pressing matters mean that you really must attend to something at the back - until the coast has cleared...

 

Tim

 

 I share Tim's view. Seeing a layout under construction can be instructive. When we took two of the new sections of London Road to ExpoEM in 2013, printed cards were placed around the display to show the way things had been done. That opened up lots of discussion, more than we had expected. The photo was taken before the show opened, which explains David Geen's absence from his trade stand.

 

Few layouts are ever really finished, although that depends on how much detail you wish to include. Two of the layouts at S4 North at Wakefield recently had two layouts that were very much works in progress and one took the Visitor's Favourite Layout Award. 

 

If you choose to exhibit your model or layout at an exhibition, then you may hope for praise but can expect criticism. It is in the nature of the beast that is the visitor to shows. Especially, in my experience, where the show is less of a "Finescale" or  specialist Society event but more of a general or local show, you are more likely to get uninformed critical comment. Whilst there are those that are willing to look at a layout, take in and appreciate the quality of the modelling, operation, etc. there will always be those who find fault. Some point out Improvements" in a friendly and helpful way, while others like to show off their greater knowledge and  to elevate their status by pointing it out rather authoritatively, sometimes in a demeaning way, although they may not realise this. Fortunately it hasn't happened often to me, most people (me included) seem to prefer keeping their own counsel. A couple of those that didn't remain lodged in my memory, but were very much in the minority of those I have spoken to.

 

Although London Road is operated from the back, we have posters and enlarged photos on the FY surrounds. to provide information and which sometimes prompts a question. When the FYs were "open" visitors would engage the operators in conversations, not realising they were holding up operating the layout, which is what many people wish to see. We've try to have a "Visitor Liaison Officer" available - usually me because I restored and extended the layout - to handle any questions and leave the operators to concentrate on the operating schedule..

 

 

Communication and exchanging ideas and experience is a large part of the hobby for many people. So we have seen the growth of magazine titles on the bookshelves as well as a number of web forums. Odd then, that many people are reluctant to ask about a display layout, although a very few enthusiastically grasp the opportunity with both hands. Is it that many people are naturally reticent in a face to face situation?

[Headstock]

37 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I know. What history tinkering rebels they are!

 

Tim,

I know that model railways should be fun, fun, fun all the time. However, on a more serious note, I do feel that the best model railways also inform, perhaps even educate. For every hyper critic out there, there are also a great many folk who just don't no. I've even bought a copy of the recently featured point Roding book, the production of such things looks incredibly tedious but how it works is interesting and I think important to learn about in more detail. It is a concern of mine that railway modelling is not about ripping up the past and rewriting history, That said, I reserve my own crash barrier criticism to standing in front of my own layout and haranguing the B team. It usually consists of, 'run some flipping trains you lazy gits.''

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

If a modeller has sweated blood over building something and has got it 99% right. Who am I to gently draw their attention to the 1% they didn't manage, perhaps ruining their satisfaction in what they have achieved. Unless they ask me what I think of it, when I will do so gently and in a constructive way.

I couldn't agree more Tony but this goes back a very long way; at least the minor errors of individual modellers aren't held up to public approbrium in the model railway press. I've recently been looking through the reports in the MRN and MRC of the first two Model Railway Club exhibtions after the war and wasn't sure whether to be amused or horrified.

 

In J.R. Maskelyne's review of the the second 1948 exhibition I read that "Another Brighton model was a very nice 4-4-2 in 4mm scale, built, we understand by a comparative novice...But is that chimney just a little too tall and that dome a trifle on the small side? Such a question may be premature; we hope to see this model when it is completely finished and will reserve final judgement until then." and on a couple of 7mm scale models "the painting, lining and lettering were commendably accurate in style, but the main colour was too dark, not a bit like the brilliant emerald green of the old G.N.R. and there was another good model which suffered from inaccurate painting ...(it) had been very neatly lined out in pale blue! Why will people do such things? Nobody ever saw a G.E.R. engine lined out in that colour, so there is no excuse for doing it on a model" Final judgement does sound a bit like the editor as god. Remember that these are critiques of individual scratchbuilt models not the products of manufacturers so were these modellers able to show their faces in public afterwards. It wasn't all so critical and many models were praised but the odd thing is that the actual model railways at the exhibition are almost completely ignored. Reports in Model Railway Constructor were in a similar vein though they somehow managed to miss the 1948 show.

 

The 1948 show was the one in which Peter Denny's first Buckingham branch made AFAIK its  one and only appearance as a complete layout (the sub-terminus Stony Stratford had been shown on its own the previous year) yet, in a report on the exhibition spread over two editions of MRN, neither it nor any of the other working layouts) get so much of a mention beyond "...while the basement was allotted almost entirely to working model railways."

It's not surprising that, when it appeared a year or so later, Railway Modeller was a real breath of fresh air and achieved far higher circulations than its two earlier rivals.  Did  these early magazines though set the tone for future attitudes to railway modelling as it grew enormously after the war? I do wonder whether this obsession with the small details of other people's work, while missing the big picture of whether their layouts capture the essence of the scenes they depict, has done our hobby any favours.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

I couldn't agree more Tony but this goes back a very long way; at least the minor errors of individual modellers aren't held up to public approbrium in the model railway press. I've recently been looking through the reports in the MRN and MRC of the first two Model Railway Club exhibtions after the war and wasn't sure whether to be amused or horrified.

 

In J.R. Maskelyne's review of the the second 1948 exhibition I read that "Another Brighton model was a very nice 4-4-2 in 4mm scale, built, we understand by a comparative novice...But is that chimney just a little too tall and that dome a trifle on the small side? Such a question may be premature; we hope to see this model when it is completely finished and will reserve final judgement until then." and on a couple of 7mm scale models "the painting, lining and lettering were commendably accurate in style, but the main colour was too dark, not a bit like the brilliant emerald green of the old G.N.R. and there was another good model which suffered from inaccurate painting ...(it) had been very neatly lined out in pale blue! Why will people do such things? Nobody ever saw a G.E.R. engine lined out in that colour, so there is no excuse for doing it on a model" Final judgement does sound a bit like the editor as god. Remember that these are critiques of individual scratchbuilt models not the products of manufacturers so were these modellers able to show their faces in public afterwards. It wasn't all so critical and many models were praised but the odd thing is that the actual model railways at the exhibition are almost completely ignored. Reports in Model Railway Constructor were in a similar vein though they somehow managed to miss the 1948 show.

 

The 1948 show was the one in which Peter Denny's first Buckingham branch made AFAIK its  one and only appearance as a complete layout (the sub-terminus Stony Stratford had been shown on its own the previous year) yet, in a report on the exhibition spread over two editions of MRN, neither it nor any of the other working layouts) get so much of a mention beyond "...while the basement was allotted almost entirely to working model railways."

It's not surprising that, when it appeared a year or so later, Railway Modeller was a real breath of fresh air and achieved far higher circulations than its two earlier rivals.  Did  these early magazines though set the tone for future attitudes to railway modelling as it grew enormously after the war? I do wonder whether this obsession with the small details of other people's work, while missing the big picture of whether their layouts capture the essence of the scenes they depict, has done our hobby any favours.

It's worth remembering when talking about J,N, Maskelyne that he had seen and known Pre-Grouping engines at what was arguably their apogee in the Edwardian era (he was born in 1892) so he wasn't just writing as an Editor but as somebody with the visual experience of what he was writing about.   Interesting to reflect that in 1948 he would have been far closer in time and memory to the reality of the everyday Pre-Group railway than we are today to the reality of BR everyday steam operation.

[CF MRC]

3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Tim,

you run GNR trains with the P2? How outrageously subversive. You should be working for the Ministry of truth."Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.''

If it’s apple green and teak it usually gets past the censors.  Anyway, quite a few of the spectators can’t tell what the train is at  six feet viewing distance in 2mm scale...

 

Tim

[CF MRC]

58 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's worth remembering when talking about J,N, Maskelyne that he had seen and known Pre-Grouping engines at what was arguably their apogee in the Edwardian era (he was born in 1892) so he wasn't just writing as an Editor but as somebody with the visual experience of what he was writing about.   Interesting to reflect that in 1948 he would have been far closer in time and memory to the reality of the everyday Pre-Group railway than we are today to the reality of BR everyday steam operation.

I believe, from talking with older MRC members many years ago, that the early shows were very much places where ‘members could display their models’  with separate stands for the main grouping companies (in fact I think that is written somewhere in the Club’s Memoranda of Understanding).  This would have been a little like the more recent Model Engineer Exhibitions where the models on display were critiqued in subsequent issues of the Model Engineer.  

 

Intriguing that JNM considered the GN livery to be “brilliant emerald green” as it went from a relatively bright green to apple green before he would have been old enough to appreciate the different colours.  Perhaps his colour memory was not infallible. 

 

Working model railway layouts at exhibition has clearly become a very different discipline from that of sixty years or more ago: it is interesting to see how flavours and styles continue to change and evolve.

 

Tim

Edited April 14, 2019 by CF MRC

[Headstock]

30 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

If it’s apple green and teak it usually gets past the censors.  Anyway, quite a few of the spectators can’t tell what the train is at  six feet viewing distance in 2mm scale...

 

Tim

 

Apparently, P2 and GNR is trending on Twitter. The people of Brazil are up in arms and the Kremlin denies any responsibility.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Headstock
CAP T

[richard i]

If I remember my science correctly your ability to correctly recall a colour fades the longer it has been since you saw it. Not was it red or green, but what shade of green. A real scientist is more than welcome to back me up or destroy this statement as pure  nonsense.

richard

[johndon]

39 minutes ago, richard i said:

If I remember my science correctly your ability to correctly recall a colour fades the longer it has been since you saw it. Not was it red or green, but what shade of green. A real scientist is more than welcome to back me up or destroy this statement as pure  nonsense.

richard

 

In the world of model warships, there are huge arguments as to what colour the USS Arizona was when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Even those who were there on the day could never seem to agree. 

 

[petrovich]

All

 

Could someone explain to me copper tube diameter and wire thickness for operating points with motors placed some distance away say 4 to 6inches.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Hollar]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's worth remembering when talking about J,N, Maskelyne that he had seen and known Pre-Grouping engines at what was arguably their apogee in the Edwardian era (he was born in 1892) so he wasn't just writing as an Editor but as somebody with the visual experience of what he was writing about.   Interesting to reflect that in 1948 he would have been far closer in time and memory to the reality of the everyday Pre-Group railway than we are today to the reality of BR everyday steam operation.

Accurate recollection of colour is extremely fugitive.  I'd be happy to stand corrected by an expert, but remember reading something recently that 20 minutes is about the limit for anything precise.  Certainly my experience of hearing evidence in court is that  eyewitness memory of colour is almost as flaky as estimates of how long things went on for.

 

Tone