Wright writes.....

[Clive Mortimore]

There is a problem with the Deltic/DP2 body and train set curves, remember most the market, even adults, run stock on train set curves. The front and rear wheels would foul the inside of the body shell. Bachmann got round this by making their Deltic ride a millimeter or so too high, it shows. Heljan's answer was to make the nose wider giving the wheels more room thus allowing the loco to ride the correct height. Sorry I cannot find where Heljan admitted it. It was made wrong and looks wrong.

 

Earlier this week I showed photos of my lengthened Lima Deltics, far from perfect but I did state my opinion that the Lima Deltic portrays the impressiveness of the prototype  which the Bachmann model seems to lack.

[bbishop]

Bulleid's "shorties".  A bit of a convoluted history, as the 59' chassis were built pre-war then stored for the duration.  They were internally the same as the Maunsell - Lynes express stock but visually followed Bulleid's suburban electric stock.  They, and the "long shorties" on 64' chassis, were front line express stock until the introduction of the end vestibule stock round about nationalisation.  Thereafter they were downgraded typically to main line stopping services (say Salisbury - Exeter) and the Somerset and Dorset Joint.  They stayed on the Western section.

 

They stayed in sets until the collapse of the system round about 1965.  I recollect standing on the end of Waterloo, wondering why the light Pacific was followed by an electric coach - took several years to twig.  As the train appeared from behind a Pompey, it could well have been a Basingstoke service.

 

Bill

 

 

[Theakerr]

Years ago I came across a Kato Chassis whose wheel base matched the Lima Deltic perfectly.  Had to do a bit of cutting to get the front end to fit but what a beutiful runner and hauler.  Despite having two Bachmann Deltics of the correct length the Lima still runs when New Waltham is in green diesel period and when it is moving through it is not too easy to see that the nose is short.

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Bulleid's "shorties".  A bit of a convoluted history, as the 59' chassis were built pre-war then stored for the duration.  They were internally the same as the Maunsell - Lynes express stock but visually followed Bulleid's suburban electric stock.  They, and the "long shorties" on 64' chassis, were front line express stock until the introduction of the end vestibule stock round about nationalisation.  Thereafter they were downgraded typically to main line stopping services (say Salisbury - Exeter) and the Somerset and Dorset Joint.  They stayed on the Western section.

 

They stayed in sets until the collapse of the system round about 1965.  I recollect standing on the end of Waterloo, wondering why the light Pacific was followed by an electric coach - took several years to twig.  As the train appeared from behind a Pompey, it could well have been a Basingstoke service.

 

Bill

 

 

Thanks Bill,

 

I think Clive Mortimer and Andrew (Headstock) are right in considering the term 'suburban' as misleading. It's written on Hornby's box, so the firm clearly thinks that's what these 'shorty' cars were for. 

 

I've been looking through some of my books on the Southern Region to see if I can identify any of these carriages in pictures (it's easier if the compartment side is visible) and it would seem (if my identification is correct, which it probably isn't) that they certainly saw service on Waterloo-Basingstoke trains or Weymouth-Bournemouth turns; secondary in nature, often with Maunsell gangwayed stock as well. They certainly don't seem to be in latter-day branded sets (with one exception I've found, if I'm right - Steam Colour Portfolio Volume 1 by Keith Pirt, page 38. The first three cars would appear to be a Brake Third and two Composites (but I could be wrong). Unfortunately, as with many of KRP's captions, it's a work of fiction. The train in the shot (behind a rebuilt WC, and going well) is described as a 'Down Bournemouth express' when it's obviously for the Salisbury/Exeter road - one disc at the top and one at the middle bottom.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[robertcwp]

Here is a short set in far from suburban use in 1952:

34105_Wimbledon_1830-Wloo-Weymouth_30-7-52 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, rka said:

I still have the Lima deltic article, I was very impressed with how it turned out and fancied having a go myself but I never got around to doing one. I like the prototype deltic chassis, very inventive.

Thanks for that,

 

I'll tell Tom.

 

In many ways (and I must be careful not to heap praise on one of my kids) he's rather a loss to railway modelling. Up to his early-20s (even at university) he was always making something model railway-wise. In that respect, he was miles ahead of me at the same age. I recall his righteous indignation when showing that scratch-built DELTIC chassis at one Harrogate show at being told 'Your dad must have made that'. I hadn't, of course, nor couldn't, but it certainly wasn't fair. 

 

He's still 'creative', but now it's rebuilding 'classic' cars - a 1970 E Type Jag, an early Range Rover and a Rover 2000. Interestingly, I offered him my TVR after common sense dictated that I just looked a big t!t in it, but he said 'No thanks'. He hadn't rebuilt it himself (not that it needed rebuilding). Funny isn't it; he must be a chip off the old block (not that I'd ever consider rebuilding old cars!). He'd much sooner make/restore something himself than buy something ready-made or made by others.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Here is a short set in far from suburban use in 1952:

34105_Wimbledon_1830-Wloo-Weymouth_30-7-52 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Thanks Robert,

 

However, in later years (a decade after?) they were less likely to have been in the prestige SR sets.

 

Great picture!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

More painting progress. I've recently completed this 1940 build of a three and a half-four compartment composite, allocated new to the western division. By 1948, the type were employed on local and long distance five sets, operating on ordinary passenger train diagrams. Renumbered as E 13299, the carriage was refurbished with full lining (unusually) without the repainting of the sole bars, roof or wheel centers, as was done to some of the other contemporary stock.

 

 

[robertcwp]

On 28/06/2019 at 21:41, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

However, in later years (a decade after?) they were less likely to have been in the prestige SR sets.

 

Great picture!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Indeed, at least some of them were on the S&D in the early 1960s. As noted elsewhere, towards the end they were split up (correction: note this is one of the rare long-frame, multi-door brakes, not the short version Hornby has done):

 

45046_KenningtonJct_Leeds-Poole_26-6-65 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by robertcwp
Correct identification.

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, robertcwp said:

Indeed, at least some of them were on the S&D in the early 1960s. As noted elsewhere, towards the end they were split up:

 

45046_KenningtonJct_Leeds-Poole_26-6-65 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Thanks again, Robert,

 

Yet another great picture!

 

Isn't this thread a fantastic resource (certainly not because of me)? Discussions about various diesels, details about SR gangwayed stock, illustrations of beautiful models of Gresley cars and a whole fund of general railway knowledge.

 

I find it hard to keep up!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Bachmann got round this by making their Deltic ride a millimeter or so too high, it shows. Heljan's answer was to make the nose wider giving the wheels more room thus allowing the loco to ride the correct height.

 

They're both wrong then!

 

The subjective part is whether either looks glaringly wrong - IMHO opinion both are acceptable, and I have purchased both.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Headstock]

6 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks again, Robert,

 

Yet another great picture!

 

Isn't this thread a fantastic resource (certainly not because of me)? Discussions about various diesels, details about SR gangwayed stock, illustrations of beautiful models of Gresley cars and a whole fund of general railway knowledge.

 

I find it hard to keep up!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Evening Tony,

 

one thing that never occurred to me before, until reading through a batch of papers. Car, as in Buffet Car, Sleeping Car and Restaurant Car, is actually an abbreviation of carriage. At least as far as the LNER was concerned.

[Tony Wright]

2 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Tony,

 

one thing that never occurred to me before, until reading through a batch of papers. Car, as in Buffet Car, Sleeping Car and Restaurant Car, is actually an abbreviation of carriage. At least as far as the LNER was concerned.

Evening Andrew,

 

The late, great Roy Jackson used to refer to his carriages as 'cars'.

 

That's good enough for me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Richard_A]

39 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks for that,

 

I'll tell Tom.

 

In many ways (and I must be careful not to heap praise on one of my kids) he's rather a loss to railway modelling. Up to his early-20s (even at university) he was always making something model railway-wise. In that respect, he was miles ahead of me at the same age. I recall his righteous indignation when showing that scratch-built DELTIC chassis at one Harrogate show at being told 'Your dad must have made that'. I hadn't, of course, nor couldn't, but it certainly wasn't fair. 

 

He's still 'creative', but now it's rebuilding 'classic' cars - a 1970 E Type Jag, an early Range Rover and a Rover 2000. Interestingly, I offered him my TVR after common sense dictated that I just looked a big t!t in it, but he said 'No thanks'. He hadn't rebuilt it himself (not that it needed rebuilding). Funny isn't it; he must be a chip off the old block (not that I'd ever consider rebuilding old cars!). He'd much sooner make/restore something himself than buy something ready-made or made by others.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Do you have anymore pictures of how he built the bogies that you could show please?

 

I have a few Lima diesels, and that looks like a good way of re-powering them, way past my current abilities but it would be nice to have a go at trying to make one.

 

Regards Richard

[Clive Mortimore]

20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

They're both wrong then!

 

The subjective part is whether either looks glaringly wrong - IMHO opinion both are acceptable, and I have purchased both.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Hi John

 

I too have have both and a Great British Locomotive Deltic on a Lima class 37 chassis. I scraped my part built plastic card one when the Bachmann one was introduced. I should have finished it.

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, rka said:

Do you have anymore pictures of how he built the bogies that you could show please?

 

I have a few Lima diesels, and that looks like a good way of re-powering them, way past my current abilities but it would be nice to have a go at trying to make one.

 

Regards Richard

I can take some more pictures, Richard,

 

Though what he's done is way beyond me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[john new]

58 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Indeed, at least some of them were on the S&D in the early 1960s. As noted elsewhere, towards the end they were split up:

 

45046_KenningtonJct_Leeds-Poole_26-6-65 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

If that is a Leeds to Poole at Oxford surely it would then be routed Reading - Basingstoke,

 - SW mainline not anywhere near the S&D? Not saying they didn’t go over the S&D to/from Bournemouth West (as I don’t know) just that the train shown didn’t.

Edited June 28, 2019 by john new

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Evening Andrew,

 

The late, great Roy Jackson used to refer to his carriages as 'cars'.

 

 

It is reassuring to know that even the greatest of the greats had their flaws.

 

Sadly now gone, the legend lives on.

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, rka said:

Do you have anymore pictures of how he built the bogies that you could show please?

 

I have a few Lima diesels, and that looks like a good way of re-powering them, way past my current abilities but it would be nice to have a go at trying to make one.

 

Regards Richard

Good morning Richard (I get up early these days!),

 

As promised.......................

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously (apart from one sideframe, the bogies are not completed (yet?). Tom thought of using the original Kitmaster sideframes, but they were lacking in relief. Thus, using them as a guide, he made a 'master' in brass, which a mate then made a mould from and cast them in resin. The springs are 10 BA studding. 

 

The gears/worms are standard Romford (the grease, which is remarkably effective, came from the days when he and his brother used to build radio-controlled model cars), and the spacers are standard turned items. Most of the rest (other than the giant motors) was built from brass and steel stock.

 

The crude 'hook' at the end is just a temporary lash-up for hauling trains.

 

It's a shame it was never completed for Retford. In the end, Roy Jackson acquired a Bachmann prototype DELTIC, and that was EM-ed (I've just invented a new word!). It was certainly much less-expensive than this would have been (Roy always pleaded poverty, bless him), but, there was nothing came near this in terms of haulage-power. 

 

Could I have built something like this when I was in my early-20s. Definitely not, nor in my early anythings.

 

Will it be ever finished? As I previously mentioned, it could be OO-ed (another new word?) in minutes, but, with the gearbox of an E Type Jag to put back together, I doubt it - at least, not for a long, long time. 

 

If Tom had still been active in railway modelling (he's still interested) when LB was being built (he did do a bit, to be fair), it would have been finished a lot sooner!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[TrevorP1]

Tom sounds like a clever man Tony. You must be proud of him.

[PMP]

The bogie side frames show the potential there certainly, presumably the steps would have been etched. One of the diesels I’m working on is a 37, hopefully to include things such as etched steps and in-line brake shoes.

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

They're both wrong then!

 

The subjective part is whether either looks glaringly wrong - IMHO opinion both are acceptable, and I have purchased both.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I agree, John,

 

Though, apart from a Baby Deltic and BRC&W Type 2, I don't have any other Heljan diesels, I do have several Bachmann Deltics. I actually lowered one, but the difference was negligible (they're not that high, anyway), and the reason they're able to negotiate tighter radii is because the outer wheels in each bogie have a thinner tyre tread and finer flange. There are issues with the overall shape, especially the nose, but I can live with them, especially as the standard of finish is so good. No doubt the Accurascale one will become the yardstick. 

 

As for the Heljan DP2, never having seen one in the flesh I cannot comment. If the nose is too wide to be acceptable to some, so be it. I assume the painting is exemplary? The modified Lima 'DP2' I showed yesterday, certainly isn't 'right', but the finish is good, and, as I commented, for its time it 'did'. 

 

I rather liked DP2, the '23rd Deltic', at least in appearance. I saw it first in plain green, at Crewe, and, latterly (before its destruction) at Doncaster, where, in two-tone green, as it approached we assumed it was a Deltic, especially if coasting.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Tony Wright]

2 minutes ago, PMP said:

The bogie side frames show the potential there certainly, presumably the steps would have been etched. One of the diesels I’m working on is a 37, hopefully to include things such as etched steps and in-line brake shoes.

I'm not quite sure how he'd have made the steps, Paul,

 

Probably from scratch.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

7 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

Tom sounds like a clever man Tony. You must be proud of him.

We are Trevor,

 

Thank you.

 

As for being 'clever', he takes after his mother, not me! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

9 hours ago, john new said:

If that is a Leeds to Poole at Oxford surely it would then be routed Reading - Basingstoke,

 - SW mainline not anywhere near the S&D? Not saying they didn’t go over the S&D to/from Bournemouth West (as I don’t know) just that the train shown didn’t.

I wasn't for a moment suggesting that train was going via the S&D. Some of the short Bulleid 3-sets had been allocated to the S&D and worked local services. There is a photo somewhere of 92220 hauling one on the line. By the time of the Oxford photo I posted, the remaining short Bulleid sets had been split up, as illustrated.