Wright writes.....

[Lecorbusier]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

To run LB's sequence, I need over 50 locos at any one time, and yet I only reproduce a fraction of what would have been seen over 60 years ago at Little Bytham. 50 P4+ locos, plus over 150% back-up.

 Cripes 

 

It will be interesting to see how I get on working out my schedule for 1902 Monsaldale. Nothing like Little Bytham, but even so there is a fairly significant daily through put. I think initially there will have to be a fair amount of doubling up as far as locos and stock are concerned to get anywhere near. Luckily train lengths and speeds were much more sedate in my period 

[Willie Whizz]

10 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

...

 

Was the issue that the schedule was run 'overly proto-typically' and so was boring/tedious as an exhibition layout ? The implication being that a more viewer friendly approach to the scheduling would have produced a better overall experience .... or were there problems beyond the 'hair shirt' operating approach ! If it was displayed at the NRM it must have been a halfway decent diorama at least. 

 

Heckmondwike was an example of a problem that hasn't gone away, in this respect. 

 

Two current large exhibition layouts I have seen recently demonstrate the same issue:  Lime Street and ... that SR West Country branch line whose name escapes me at the moment.  In both cases they are based on prototype locations.  In both cases the standard of scenic modelling is unequivocally superb and the rolling stock appears wholly accurate and appropriate.  And in both cases, trying to watch them as an operating spectacle - in the context of a large exhibition where available time to get around everything of interest in a single day is limited - is, sadly, like watching paint dry ...

 

The branch line ... I'm really sorry, the name just will not come ... both times I've seen it appeared to be having problems getting anything to run properly; and when it did nothing much happened.  Yes, real branch lines were often like that, I'm not daft - but most spectators having lingered several minutes and seen virtually nothing happen, moved on shaking their heads.

 

Lime Street as a feat of modelling is nothing short of remarkable.  As an exhibition layout it is ... difficult to watch.  In the first place you have to crouch down and twist your neck to get to see much at all when viewing from the side - a consequence of the height and of the need for metal barriers to keep the audience away from the operators, who are on the 'public' side - so backache and a crick in the neck are the inevitable consequences of lingering for long.  In the second place, there are often what seem like lengthy gaps between train movements; so even what you do get to see, from quite far away, amounts to not a lot.  Again, in 'real life' you would have spread a 'spotting' visit to such a station over some hours, not minutes, and you'd have been able to change position - but this is not 'real life' and nor is it even 'home operation'; it's an exhibition of model railways open to the general public, not just steam-era model enthusiasts. 

 

If nothing much moves on a layout, and you can barely get a decent look at what does, then however prototypical the timetable, authentic the stock, and correct the bell-codes (where used), the novelty of staring admiringly at a fabulous diorama of a large station hotel or an exquisite field of grass being grazed by correctly-coloured dairy cattle while you wait for the next train begins to pall after a while.  Save the timetable for home, where you and your friends can savour it.  At an exhibition, do make each move look realistic, yes, but close-up the gaps and keep things moving!

 

(To be fair to the creator of Lime Street I did subsequently learn that it wasn't originally intended as an exhibition layout, which does rather help account for the 'viewing challenges;; but even so ...)

Edited October 29, 2019 by Willie Whizz

[Lecorbusier]

5 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

If nothing much moves on a layout, and you can barely get a decent look at what does, then however prototypical the timetable and authentic the stock, the novelty of staring admiringly at a fabulous diorama of a large station hotel or an exquisite field of grass being grazed by prototypical dairy cattle begins to pall after a while.  Save the timetable for home, where you and your friends can savour it.  At an exhibition, do make each move look realistic yes, but keep things moving!

..... so really what I take from this is that - in exhibition circumstances - we really are talking more in terms of the theatre than anything else. A stage set maybe with a proscenium, definitely with lighting and a back drop, definitely with wings .... and the actors are the trains. In this analogy, the timetable becomes the script and as we all know a play script condenses real life and dramatises it for the benefit of the illusion being created.

 

It seems to me a good approach, whatever ones taste in layout, scale or track gauge 

[Barry Ten]

7 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

 

 

The branch line ... I'm really sorry, the name just will not come ... both times I've seen it appeared to be having problems getting anything to run properly; and when it did nothing much happened.  Yes, real branch lines were often like that, I'm not daft - but most spectators having lingered several minutes and seen virtually nothing happen, moved on shaking their heads.

 

 

 

 

I've seen the layout you allude to on three occasions, and with regret, I have to agree. Very rarely was anything moving, and when it did ... things tended to fall off, or need prodding. I was prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt on the third occasion, but literally the very first move I saw on the layout resulted in a derailment.

 

As a counterpoint, over the two days of the Cardiff show last week, we had only one derailment on Sherton Abbas, and that was possibly the result of rough-shunting by me.

 

Al

[thegreenhowards]

Are we talking about Sidmouth? If so, I agree.

 

On Lime Street, I agree the action is a little slow, but trains do move and there is plenty to admire in between.  I watched enthralled for an hour at Warley last year despite all the other temptations on offer.

 

Andy

[Willie Whizz]

1 minute ago, thegreenhowards said:

Are we talking about Sidmouth? If so, I agree.

 

 

That's the !  Thanks.

[Chamby]

20 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Are we talking about Sidmouth? If so, I agree.

 

On Lime Street, I agree the action is a little slow, but trains do move and there is plenty to admire in between.  I watched enthralled for an hour at Warley last year despite all the other temptations on offer.

 

Andy

 

I was thinking of Bath Green Park...  Again beautifully modelled but nothing ever happening.

 

Re: Lime St, such a stunning model but the problem I found with this layout at exhibition was not a lack of train movement,  but rather that there was so much scenic stuff in front of the action that it was difficult to see what was really going on.

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

As usual, a wise post, Tony.

 

Many thanks.

 

I'd love to see a P4 A4 doing 90 and staying on the track. If it were relatively easy (and thus, 'common') I don't think Roy Jackson would have compromised with EM, and I certainly wouldn't be mucking about with OO. But, as you say, it's not an exhibition layout and it's private. What a pity. 

 

May I take it a step further, please? Are there the A1s as well, and the A2s (of all varieties) and the A3s, and the V2s (the W1?), plus all the smaller classes associated with a true ECML steam depiction (as seen on Retford)? To run LB's sequence, I need over 50 locos at any one time, and yet I only reproduce a fraction of what would have been seen over 60 years ago at Little Bytham. 50 P4+ locos, plus over 150% back-up. Is it possible? 

 

As for needing to 'prove themselves to a wider audience', isn't that anyone who's ever written an article, given a talk, given a demonstration or shown a layout at an exhibition?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

It was many years ago when I saw the layout, in an early stage of construction but with the main lines laid. There were a handful of locos available including a V2 and an A1 but as there was only the main line wired up and operational and only one rake of carriages built, I only saw the A4 and an N2 run.

 

I don't know how many have been built since then.

 

I agree that many of us like the approval of others for what we do. It is lovely when people say nice things. The point I was making is that there may be others who are working away, out of the public gaze, who may be producing exquisite modelling that is purely for their own pleasure. Some may even want to keep their work quiet as there are security implications. Some may be building big P4 layouts!

 

It isn't easy to build models like those I saw in P4 but the people who do it don't do it because it is easy. I know some fine P4 modellers but they all do it for the same reason, to challenge their skills and abilities to the maximum, rather than for the ease of it. There is no doubt that it does give the ultimate in realism in 4mm scale

 

You and I differ on operation and always will but Buckingham is great fun to operate with around 20 locos running a sequence of around 100 trains. A "Pom pom" might work into Buckingham on a coal train, go on shed, turn, come onto a passenger train, have its headlamps changed to work a stopping passenger. Later in the sequence, it comes back to Buckingham where it goes on shed for servicing and turning and them works a cattle train. It may haul 5 or 6 different trains in the sequence. In the imagination, it isn't the same loco and in reality, if you look at it from more than 2 feet away, you can't read the number so it may as well be a different one that comes back with a different train. So why have 6 "Pom poms" and unless you have a huge fiddle yard with most of your trains hidden away nearly all the time, where do you keep them? It always seemed rather sad that layouts like Retford and Little Bytham would have superbly modelled trains, with many hours of work and when watching you see them for a few seconds flashing by at 70mph plus once in a sequence. Who can really appreciate the modelling seeing it at that speed in that context?

 

I would rather have a terminus and a loco shed, where the carriages can stand in the platform for a while and the locos on shed can both be admired in a natural setting instead of crammed into a fiddle yard between other tightly packed trains.

 

So Buckingham has a quite different approach to Little Bytham. We do run a whole days worth of trains but we accept that one GCR train looks very much like any other so if the train that departed for Marylebone half an hour ago now arrives as a service from Oxford, in our minds it is a different train. It is the opposite way round as the carriages are in the reverse order because of the turntable fiddle yard so it looks different enough for us.

 

Many times in the sequence, the express does rattle through Grandborough on its way too or from Buckingham, so we do get the thrill of that. But we will also have some shunting in the yard and perhaps a stopper detaching a horsebox in the other platform. Often all at the same time when we have enough operators.

 

That is, to me, what operating a model railway is all about. Even when nobody else is watching, for our own amusement, we run an intricate and complex timetable. Not just when we have visitors or when we want to test a loco as Retford was. Not a single train arrives and leaves without some change taking place. Shunting stock to another platform to clear the original one for the next arrival. Changing locos. adding and removing tail loads. It is so much more fun than running one round, then the next. We have just reintroduced the removable headlamps, so from now on, all trains will have the correct headlamps for the type of train. Knowing your way round the 69 lever frame, always having the locos and stock in the right place at the right time is hugely satisfying and if you come away from a session having done a good job, you really feel a sense of achievement as it is challenging and very easy to make mistakes.

 

I used to operate Retford regularly. When Buckingham came to me, I quickly concluded that there was no comparison in terms of the enjoyment of operating. On Retford, we ran a parade of trains. One round. the next round, then the next. With all those trains, with all those points, sidings and yards, perhaps half a dozen out of a hundred or more did something other than run round. In the most recent sequence, I recall one train each way doing a bit of shunting.  It was frankly dull to operate and when we did run it to the sequence, people quickly drifted away as one express going round looked just like the last one. By the time we were 25% of the way through the sequence, one or two people might glance up when a train went by but most were just deep in conversation with each other. Very few people were excited that a particular train had the correct formation of carriages and the correct type of loco from the correct shed hauling it.

 

I would like to think that anybody who saw Narrow Road, Tickhill & Wadworth or even Leighton Buzzard at exhibitions will have seen lots of operating, with hopefully small gaps between trains and much intricate movement. Narrow Road had 6 passenger trains and 2 goods trains. Tickhill had 2 passenger and 4 goods trains. Leighton Buzzard 3 passenger and 2 goods. You don't need hundreds of carriages and locos to put on a good show.   

 

    

[jukebox]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

*snip*

 

As for needing to 'prove themselves to a wider audience', isn't that anyone who's ever written an article, given a talk, given a demonstration or shown a layout at an exhibition?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

Or indeed start a thread here on RMWeb - an audience which can (at times) be simultaneously both the harshest and diplomacy-free of critics, and the most  supportive and rewarding of peers.

 

Of course I enjoy the latter more than the former, but I post updates on my layout progress here first and foremost as a record of my work, but also as a way to "give back" to those looking for help, advice, or inspiration.  So many people see the results of professionals, and think "I can't do that" - I'd hope that people see works in progress on threads here and are encouraged to push themselves to "do a little better".

 

We all start somewhere, and RMWeb is a great place to learn - I don't think anyone can claim to be an expert and perfectionist in all areas that our hobby requires, so to have the ear of a wide variety of people who *are* very good in their individual areas of skill make life a lot easier.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

..... so really what I take from this is that - in exhibition circumstances - we really are talking more in terms of the theatre than anything else. A stage set maybe with a proscenium, definitely with lighting and a back drop, definitely with wings .... and the actors are the trains. In this analogy, the timetable becomes the script and as we all know a play script condenses real life and dramatises it for the benefit of the illusion being created.

 

It seems to me a good approach, whatever ones taste in layout, scale or track gauge 

Tim, that's a good analogy. For me, though, it's only part of what we should be trying to do at exhibitions. Surely we should aspire to Lord Reith's philosophy for the BBC - "Inform, educate and entertain"? Any exhibition layout that does all three deserves to be, and will be, a success.

 

What we do in the privacy of our own homes (or model railway clubrooms) is, of course, a different matter entirely.

[Lecorbusier]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Tim, that's a good analogy. For me, though, it's only part of what we should be trying to do at exhibitions. Surely we should aspire to Lord Reith's philosophy for the BBC - "Inform, educate and entertain"? Any exhibition layout that does all three deserves to be, and will be, a success.

 

The only caveat being ... that this would be the best or finest of layouts ? A layout which is nicely made and thoroughly entertaining (like a pot boiler film or book) but falls down perhaps elsewhere, I would suggest is still a success and well worth an exhibition slot?

 

The problem with 'inform and educate' for me comes when this makes the work inaccessible at the base level. There are many fine and award winning works in theatre and film which are only successful on the highbrow/art circuit .... but that doesn't make them poor, but rather makes them specialist. I suggest it might be likewise with model railways in some instances.

 

Interestingly, given some of the thoughts shared on Heckmondwike above, there is also an arrogance and holier than thou aspect to high brow theatre and film and (though I can't comment specifically regarding gauge wars and the such like) it is healthy for people to cry 'Emperor's Clothes' as and when necessary and stand up for their taste and outlook. My own discipline of architecture is similar, and from my standpoint it does no harm for the lay person to comment 'but it's ugly and doesn't work' to bring us crashing back to earth every once in a while.  You can have all the complex and intellectual arguments and theories in the world but they tend to remain just that if the end product is simply dull or worse! (not that I am saying Heckmondwike is any of these things - I haven't seen it and from the pictures I suspect I would like it very much).

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

Not as extinct as we like to think. I have had people infer that I am not a proper modeller because I don't make my own track but use Peco because it is quicker, reliable and works out the box. I have made my own track in the past and exhibited the layout it was used on, hence me using Peco track.

 

I have been told I am not a scratchbuilder because I do not wind my own motors or turn my own wheels. The photos in the above link were taken in the 1980s and there are 3 homemade locos and 7 conversions, of which only the class 11 is not yet (soon will be) available RTR.

 

My retort to people who say that I am not a model maker is please show me your hand crafted 4 mm scale figures. Something I enjoying doing and something I know many wouldn't even consider doing.



They do need tidying up and finishing.

 

As you all know I enjoy model making and do not consider anyone who doesn't or can't do what I do less of a railway modeller than me if they are having fun and at the same time I am in awe of those who can do what I won't do or think I cannot do.

'I have been told I am not a scratchbuilder because I do not wind my own motors or turn my own wheels. The photos in the above link were taken in the 1980s and there are 3 homemade locos and 7 conversions, of which only the class 11 is not yet (soon will be) available RTR.

 

My retort to people who say that I am not a model maker'

 

 

It would be interesting to know the names of the people who've made those comments, Clive.

 

I'd doubt if it's anyone on here. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Clive Mortimore]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

It was many years ago when I saw the layout, in an early stage of construction but with the main lines laid. There were a handful of locos available including a V2 and an A1 but as there was only the main line wired up and operational and only one rake of carriages built, I only saw the A4 and an N2 run.

 

I don't know how many have been built since then.

 

I agree that many of us like the approval of others for what we do. It is lovely when people say nice things. The point I was making is that there may be others who are working away, out of the public gaze, who may be producing exquisite modelling that is purely for their own pleasure. Some may even want to keep their work quiet as there are security implications. Some may be building big P4 layouts!

 

It isn't easy to build models like those I saw in P4 but the people who do it don't do it because it is easy. I know some fine P4 modellers but they all do it for the same reason, to challenge their skills and abilities to the maximum, rather than for the ease of it. There is no doubt that it does give the ultimate in realism in 4mm scale

 

You and I differ on operation and always will but Buckingham is great fun to operate with around 20 locos running a sequence of around 100 trains. A "Pom pom" might work into Buckingham on a coal train, go on shed, turn, come onto a passenger train, have its headlamps changed to work a stopping passenger. Later in the sequence, it comes back to Buckingham where it goes on shed for servicing and turning and them works a cattle train. It may haul 5 or 6 different trains in the sequence. In the imagination, it isn't the same loco and in reality, if you look at it from more than 2 feet away, you can't read the number so it may as well be a different one that comes back with a different train. So why have 6 "Pom poms" and unless you have a huge fiddle yard with most of your trains hidden away nearly all the time, where do you keep them? It always seemed rather sad that layouts like Retford and Little Bytham would have superbly modelled trains, with many hours of work and when watching you see them for a few seconds flashing by at 70mph plus once in a sequence. Who can really appreciate the modelling seeing it at that speed in that context?

 

I would rather have a terminus and a loco shed, where the carriages can stand in the platform for a while and the locos on shed can both be admired in a natural setting instead of crammed into a fiddle yard between other tightly packed trains.

 

So Buckingham has a quite different approach to Little Bytham. We do run a whole days worth of trains but we accept that one GCR train looks very much like any other so if the train that departed for Marylebone half an hour ago now arrives as a service from Oxford, in our minds it is a different train. It is the opposite way round as the carriages are in the reverse order because of the turntable fiddle yard so it looks different enough for us.

 

Many times in the sequence, the express does rattle through Grandborough on its way too or from Buckingham, so we do get the thrill of that. But we will also have some shunting in the yard and perhaps a stopper detaching a horsebox in the other platform. Often all at the same time when we have enough operators.

 

That is, to me, what operating a model railway is all about. Even when nobody else is watching, for our own amusement, we run an intricate and complex timetable. Not just when we have visitors or when we want to test a loco as Retford was. Not a single train arrives and leaves without some change taking place. Shunting stock to another platform to clear the original one for the next arrival. Changing locos. adding and removing tail loads. It is so much more fun than running one round, then the next. We have just reintroduced the removable headlamps, so from now on, all trains will have the correct headlamps for the type of train. Knowing your way round the 69 lever frame, always having the locos and stock in the right place at the right time is hugely satisfying and if you come away from a session having done a good job, you really feel a sense of achievement as it is challenging and very easy to make mistakes.

 

I used to operate Retford regularly. When Buckingham came to me, I quickly concluded that there was no comparison in terms of the enjoyment of operating. On Retford, we ran a parade of trains. One round. the next round, then the next. With all those trains, with all those points, sidings and yards, perhaps half a dozen out of a hundred or more did something other than run round. In the most recent sequence, I recall one train each way doing a bit of shunting.  It was frankly dull to operate and when we did run it to the sequence, people quickly drifted away as one express going round looked just like the last one. By the time we were 25% of the way through the sequence, one or two people might glance up when a train went by but most were just deep in conversation with each other. Very few people were excited that a particular train had the correct formation of carriages and the correct type of loco from the correct shed hauling it.

 

I would like to think that anybody who saw Narrow Road, Tickhill & Wadworth or even Leighton Buzzard at exhibitions will have seen lots of operating, with hopefully small gaps between trains and much intricate movement. Narrow Road had 6 passenger trains and 2 goods trains. Tickhill had 2 passenger and 4 goods trains. Leighton Buzzard 3 passenger and 2 goods. You don't need hundreds of carriages and locos to put on a good show.   

 

    

Hi Tony

 

Your post was very interesting to read as you were able to compare two styles of operating layouts from your own experience. It shows that we all have our own idea on what is enjoyable. Your description of Retford of a possession of trains passing is what I experienced as a trainspotter at many locations so could this be what modellers of such layouts are trying to recreate? On the other hand how you describe the operation of Buckingham reminds me of standing on platform 10 at Kings Cross watching the toing and froing of a busy terminus station, and that is something some people like to recreate.

 

A friend of mine, Andi Dell, builds layouts from a driver's perspective. His layout Dagworth was an inverted figure of 8 where the train took 3 circuits to arrive back in the fiddle yard  but is wasn't the only train on the line. You drove following the signals so between you and the one in front there would be a red, a yellow, a double yellow and a green. Signalling and driving were two separate actions. Andi is an ex-driver.

 

I like to see trains running and I like terminal action but not too much shunting (it bores me) so I am building my layout to cater for my needs. Thankfully it is not an exhibition layout so I do not have to factor in the "entertain the public" element.

 

A few post ago Tim from Copenhagen Fields mentioned about a layout (Retford?) only being made up to the railway boundary and that wasn't his style. I am only building up to  railway boundary because as a trainspotter I didn't give a dam about what was on the other side of the fence (and my baseboards are wide enough already). Other people enjoy making a country or town scene. We all have our preferences and I hope you agree with me that there is no right or wrong if you are enjoying what you are doing. 

[thegreenhowards]

8 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

I was thinking of Bath Green Park...  Again beautifully modelled but nothing ever happening.

 

Re: Lime St, such a stunning model but the problem I found with this layout at exhibition was not a lack of train movement,  but rather that there was so much scenic stuff in front of the action that it was difficult to see what was really going on.

I found the best place to view the trains on Lime St was in the station approaches where they run through the magnificent cutting and you can get a good view.

 

In the station itself, I agree that it can be hard to see the trains towards the back, and that’s without an overall roof. I have a (very) long term plan to build a model of King’s Cross but seeing Lime Street has made me wonder how anyone would see the trains with the overall roof. I think I may have to model the northern part for a couple of feet and then leave a long section missing for viewing purposes. If anyone has a better idea then please let me know.

 

Andy

[Clive Mortimore]

7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'I have been told I am not a scratchbuilder because I do not wind my own motors or turn my own wheels. The photos in the above link were taken in the 1980s and there are 3 homemade locos and 7 conversions, of which only the class 11 is not yet (soon will be) available RTR.

 

My retort to people who say that I am not a model maker'

 

 

It would be interesting to know the names of the people who've made those comments, Clive.

 

I'd doubt if it's anyone on here. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

Some are RMweb contributors and some are not and it would be unfair to name people. Some of them may not realise what they are saying sometimes and others are clever enough to say things in a way that doesn't always look like a put down. I have fun bodging plastic card into something I think looks like a model of a railway item, and that is the important bit. 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Just now, thegreenhowards said:

I found the best place to view the trains on Lime St was in the station approaches where they run through the magnificent cutting and you can get a good view.

 

In the station itself, I agree that it can be hard to see the trains towards the back, and that’s without an overall roof. I have a (very) long term plan to build a model of King’s Cross but seeing Lime Street has made me wonder how anyone would see the trains with the overall roof. I think I may have to model the northern part for a couple of feet and then leave a long section missing for viewing purposes. If anyone has a better idea then please let me know.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

 

I too had visions of building Kings Cross, I hand drew the track in 4mm scale back in the 80s, scaled up from a large scale OS map. It was on retiring I realised my dream would have to remain a dream. My compromise has been to use the 1977 track plan as an inspiration for Sheffield Exchange which leads onto what to do with a terminus station.

 

I am not having a roof. I am also not having a station building. As a trainspotter you don't look back at the building, as a commuter going home you don't look up at the roof and when excited about going on holiday want to say good bye to your normal surroundings. In all three cases the sight of the trains is the important thing not grand standing to the town's people that many big terminal stations tried to do. I am having a small area of concourse, the side walls of the station with the fronts of the various offices, amenities  etc along them and the central supports for the roof. So hopefully when someone is at the concourse end of the station they will become the trainspotter eagerly collecting the numbers before buying the platform ticket, the commuter thankful he is going home or the excited holiday maker about to embark on a weeks adventure.  There are also some practical reasons, derailments, non starting locos, and cleaning the track are easier if there is no roof. Also I want to see my model trains not a boring overall roof.

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

It was many years ago when I saw the layout, in an early stage of construction but with the main lines laid. There were a handful of locos available including a V2 and an A1 but as there was only the main line wired up and operational and only one rake of carriages built, I only saw the A4 and an N2 run.

 

I don't know how many have been built since then.

 

I agree that many of us like the approval of others for what we do. It is lovely when people say nice things. The point I was making is that there may be others who are working away, out of the public gaze, who may be producing exquisite modelling that is purely for their own pleasure. Some may even want to keep their work quiet as there are security implications. Some may be building big P4 layouts!

 

It isn't easy to build models like those I saw in P4 but the people who do it don't do it because it is easy. I know some fine P4 modellers but they all do it for the same reason, to challenge their skills and abilities to the maximum, rather than for the ease of it. There is no doubt that it does give the ultimate in realism in 4mm scale

 

You and I differ on operation and always will but Buckingham is great fun to operate with around 20 locos running a sequence of around 100 trains. A "Pom pom" might work into Buckingham on a coal train, go on shed, turn, come onto a passenger train, have its headlamps changed to work a stopping passenger. Later in the sequence, it comes back to Buckingham where it goes on shed for servicing and turning and them works a cattle train. It may haul 5 or 6 different trains in the sequence. In the imagination, it isn't the same loco and in reality, if you look at it from more than 2 feet away, you can't read the number so it may as well be a different one that comes back with a different train. So why have 6 "Pom poms" and unless you have a huge fiddle yard with most of your trains hidden away nearly all the time, where do you keep them? It always seemed rather sad that layouts like Retford and Little Bytham would have superbly modelled trains, with many hours of work and when watching you see them for a few seconds flashing by at 70mph plus once in a sequence. Who can really appreciate the modelling seeing it at that speed in that context?

 

I would rather have a terminus and a loco shed, where the carriages can stand in the platform for a while and the locos on shed can both be admired in a natural setting instead of crammed into a fiddle yard between other tightly packed trains.

 

So Buckingham has a quite different approach to Little Bytham. We do run a whole days worth of trains but we accept that one GCR train looks very much like any other so if the train that departed for Marylebone half an hour ago now arrives as a service from Oxford, in our minds it is a different train. It is the opposite way round as the carriages are in the reverse order because of the turntable fiddle yard so it looks different enough for us.

 

Many times in the sequence, the express does rattle through Grandborough on its way too or from Buckingham, so we do get the thrill of that. But we will also have some shunting in the yard and perhaps a stopper detaching a horsebox in the other platform. Often all at the same time when we have enough operators.

 

That is, to me, what operating a model railway is all about. Even when nobody else is watching, for our own amusement, we run an intricate and complex timetable. Not just when we have visitors or when we want to test a loco as Retford was. Not a single train arrives and leaves without some change taking place. Shunting stock to another platform to clear the original one for the next arrival. Changing locos. adding and removing tail loads. It is so much more fun than running one round, then the next. We have just reintroduced the removable headlamps, so from now on, all trains will have the correct headlamps for the type of train. Knowing your way round the 69 lever frame, always having the locos and stock in the right place at the right time is hugely satisfying and if you come away from a session having done a good job, you really feel a sense of achievement as it is challenging and very easy to make mistakes.

 

I used to operate Retford regularly. When Buckingham came to me, I quickly concluded that there was no comparison in terms of the enjoyment of operating. On Retford, we ran a parade of trains. One round. the next round, then the next. With all those trains, with all those points, sidings and yards, perhaps half a dozen out of a hundred or more did something other than run round. In the most recent sequence, I recall one train each way doing a bit of shunting.  It was frankly dull to operate and when we did run it to the sequence, people quickly drifted away as one express going round looked just like the last one. By the time we were 25% of the way through the sequence, one or two people might glance up when a train went by but most were just deep in conversation with each other. Very few people were excited that a particular train had the correct formation of carriages and the correct type of loco from the correct shed hauling it.

 

I would like to think that anybody who saw Narrow Road, Tickhill & Wadworth or even Leighton Buzzard at exhibitions will have seen lots of operating, with hopefully small gaps between trains and much intricate movement. Narrow Road had 6 passenger trains and 2 goods trains. Tickhill had 2 passenger and 4 goods trains. Leighton Buzzard 3 passenger and 2 goods. You don't need hundreds of carriages and locos to put on a good show.   

 

    

Good morning Tony,

 

I agree that modelling in P4 is not 'easy', and that it does challenge modellers' skills to the limit. However, when it becomes 'too challenging' the results are there for all to see - or not see! By the latter, I mean the situation where some P4 layouts never get anywhere near finished (that's not a situation exclusive to the finest 4mm scale/gauge combination, I know). A week ago some friends came to run LB. Two are P4 modellers and one was, but has changed to EM because he couldn't get the running qualities he desired in P4 (things kept on falling off). The other two have been building a P4 layout for over 20 years! It's a fraction the size of LB, but tracklaying is still incomplete and in the time it takes me to make a full-blown Pacific, they haven't even made a set of frames. I know I was part of a team which built LB, but I've built most of the locos and passenger rolling stock. Yes, it's taken me over 40 years, but the P4 layout I've just mentioned will probably never be even near finished (one of the builders is older than I am!). The 'journey', I suppose, and I respect them for this. 

 

I don't think building Retford was 'easy', either, and building Little Bytham hasn't always been a doddle. If we all wanted things 'easy' in this hobby, we'd all use RTR/RTP stuff or get others to do (all) our modelling for us. 

 

We'll always agree to differ about what 'excites' us about model railway operation. What you've described about Retford is more or less what the place was like in reality. A 'parade' of trains. But, what trains, and the non-stops didn't half go. Despite your reservations about Retford, I think it's the most exciting model railway I've ever seen. I'm back again, well over 60 years ago, sitting on the 'wall', the yell of 'streak!' deafening the ears as an A4 races by on 13 or more! It's a replication of what actually happened at an actual place. Nothing is more realistic than that in my view. 

 

You mention an express rattling through Grandborough Junction on Buckingham. I assume you mean 'rattling' at speed? Isn't that a bit unrealistic? The Junction is less than a scale mile from Buckingham's terminus, and I'm not aware of a long enough scenic break between the two to allow trains to gain speed or slow down realistically. Not only that, the curve at the Down end, taken at speed (in reality) would have the train on its side. Yes, I have 'daft' curves on LB, but they're all out of sight so to speak. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

32 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Tony

 

Your post was very interesting to read as you were able to compare two styles of operating layouts from your own experience. It shows that we all have our own idea on what is enjoyable. Your description of Retford of a possession of trains passing is what I experienced as a trainspotter at many locations so could this be what modellers of such layouts are trying to recreate? On the other hand how you describe the operation of Buckingham reminds me of standing on platform 10 at Kings Cross watching the toing and froing of a busy terminus station, and that is something some people like to recreate.

 

A friend of mine, Andi Dell, builds layouts from a driver's perspective. His layout Dagworth was an inverted figure of 8 where the train took 3 circuits to arrive back in the fiddle yard  but is wasn't the only train on the line. You drove following the signals so between you and the one in front there would be a red, a yellow, a double yellow and a green. Signalling and driving were two separate actions. Andi is an ex-driver.

 

I like to see trains running and I like terminal action but not too much shunting (it bores me) so I am building my layout to cater for my needs. Thankfully it is not an exhibition layout so I do not have to factor in the "entertain the public" element.

 

A few post ago Tim from Copenhagen Fields mentioned about a layout (Retford?) only being made up to the railway boundary and that wasn't his style. I am only building up to  railway boundary because as a trainspotter I didn't give a dam about what was on the other side of the fence (and my baseboards are wide enough already). Other people enjoy making a country or town scene. We all have our preferences and I hope you agree with me that there is no right or wrong if you are enjoying what you are doing. 

'A few post ago Tim from Copenhagen Fields mentioned about a layout (Retford?) only being made up to the railway boundary'

 

Definitely not Retford, Clive (Heckmondwike, I think).

 

The scenic work that Tony Gee (and others) did in the area to the east of the flat crossing bears witness to this, as did Buccaneer John's architectural modelling in West Carr Road, all (well) beyond the railway boundary. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[D-A-T]

10 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

..... so really what I take from this is that - in exhibition circumstances - we really are talking more in terms of the theatre than anything else. A stage set maybe with a proscenium, definitely with lighting and a back drop, definitely with wings .... and the actors are the trains. In this analogy, the timetable becomes the script and as we all know a play script condenses real life and dramatises it for the benefit of the illusion being created.

 

It seems to me a good approach, whatever ones taste in layout, scale or track gauge 

You are Iain Rice and I claim

my £5-00...

[Chamby]

As a layout operator, our experience of a model railway is very different to that of an observer at an exhibition.

 

At the Bodmin exhibition a week ago, I was manning a straightforward fiddle-yard-to-through-station single track layout for the full two days and by the end of Sunday I was mentally desolate.  I enjoy my hobby very much but two days solid running (albeit with occasional breaks to keep the operators sane) became tedious at best.  You can have too much of a good thing...  However, as long as we kept stuff running, the fee-paying public were engaged and appreciative of both the layout and the related dialogue.  The layout did what it was supposed to do.

 

As an exhibition visitor, I find some of the most enjoyable layouts are uncomplicated through runs where you can simply watch the trains go by.  Yeovil Group’s The Summit is perhaps the ultimate example... I spent more gawping time there than anywhere else when it appeared at Warley a few years back.

 

So I wouldn’t knock a layout that can be operationally boring... it very much depends on the layout’s primary purpose.

[Lecorbusier]

21 minutes ago, D-A-T said:

You are Iain Rice and I claim

my £5-00...

Unfortunately I have some way to go to claim that honour!!!! ... but  now you mention it I do seem to be guilty plagiarism 

 

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Tony,

 

I agree that modelling in P4 is not 'easy', and that it does challenge modellers' skills to the limit. However, when it becomes 'too challenging' the results are there for all to see - or not see! By the latter, I mean the situation where some P4 layouts never get anywhere near finished (that's not a situation exclusive to the finest 4mm scale/gauge combination, I know). A week ago some friends came to run LB. Two are P4 modellers and one was, but has changed to EM because he couldn't get the running qualities he desired in P4 (things kept on falling off). The other two have been building a P4 layout for over 20 years! It's a fraction the size of LB, but tracklaying is still incomplete and in the time it takes me to make a full-blown Pacific, they haven't even made a set of frames. I know I was part of a team which built LB, but I've built most of the locos and passenger rolling stock. Yes, it's taken me over 40 years, but the P4 layout I've just mentioned will probably never be even near finished (one of the builders is older than I am!). The 'journey', I suppose, and I respect them for this. 

 

I don't think building Retford was 'easy', either, and building Little Bytham hasn't always been a doddle. If we all wanted things 'easy' in this hobby, we'd all use RTR/RTP stuff or get others to do (all) our modelling for us. 

 

We'll always agree to differ about what 'excites' us about model railway operation. What you've described about Retford is more or less what the place was like in reality. A 'parade' of trains. But, what trains, and the non-stops didn't half go. Despite your reservations about Retford, I think it's the most exciting model railway I've ever seen. I'm back again, well over 60 years ago, sitting on the 'wall', the yell of 'streak!' deafening the ears as an A4 races by on 13 or more! It's a replication of what actually happened at an actual place. Nothing is more realistic than that in my view. 

 

You mention an express rattling through Grandborough Junction on Buckingham. I assume you mean 'rattling' at speed? Isn't that a bit unrealistic? The Junction is less than a scale mile from Buckingham's terminus, and I'm not aware of a long enough scenic break between the two to allow trains to gain speed or slow down realistically. Not only that, the curve at the Down end, taken at speed (in reality) would have the train on its side. Yes, I have 'daft' curves on LB, but they're all out of sight so to speak. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Buckingham and Grandborough are several miles apart. On the map anyway. When you operate Buckingham, you just accept that the two stations are some distance apart. In effect, they are are two layouts of stations on the same line that are kept apart visually be a scenic break. If you operate Buckingham, you have your back to Grandborough and vice versa. So you don't have to see the train in both places if you don't want to. You get the call attention, the 4 beats, set the points and signals and finish the bell codes (the most accurate way of sending a train along a layout, just like they used to do it!) and you drive the train in.

 

In practice, we turn to watch them go round because they look fantastic! It is a good case of the imagination being led, by clever design, into thinking it is entirely realistic by the few inches of scenic break between the stations.

 

It works for us anyway.

 

We usually get them up to a scale 60 mph. Plenty fast enough. The layout has a lovely sweeping curve through Grandborough and transition curves at the end. You sit roughly in the centre of the curve and the train goes round you, so you don't really see how tight they are. They don't cause us any problems visually.

[Barry Ten]

36 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

As an exhibition visitor, I find some of the most enjoyable layouts are uncomplicated through runs where you can simply watch the trains go by.  Yeovil Group’s The Summit is perhaps the ultimate example... I spent more gawping time there than anywhere else when it appeared at Warley a few years back.

 

 

The Yeovil group were showing Evercreech New at the Taunton show. It's an on-going rebuild of the enormous 7mm layout originally owned by Julian Birley. Only five of the

boards could be re-utilised, but the new additions include two sweeping viaducts and the sight of expresses on these curves was fantastic. And, there was a never-ending procession of realistic trains, with accurate formations and weathered stock. Totally brilliant!

[t-b-g]

46 minutes ago, Chamby said:

As a layout operator, our experience of a model railway is very different to that of an observer at an exhibition.

 

At the Bodmin exhibition a week ago, I was manning a straightforward fiddle-yard-to-through-station single track layout for the full two days and by the end of Sunday I was mentally desolate.  I enjoy my hobby very much but two days solid running (albeit with occasional breaks to keep the operators sane) became tedious at best.  You can have too much of a good thing...  However, as long as we kept stuff running, the fee-paying public were engaged and appreciative of both the layout and the related dialogue.  The layout did what it was supposed to do.

 

As an exhibition visitor, I find some of the most enjoyable layouts are uncomplicated through runs where you can simply watch the trains go by.  Yeovil Group’s The Summit is perhaps the ultimate example... I spent more gawping time there than anywhere else when it appeared at Warley a few years back.

 

So I wouldn’t knock a layout that can be operationally boring... it very much depends on the layout’s primary purpose.

 

i agree entirely. A layout can be fantastic to watch and boring to operate and be a real "showstopper" at exhibitions. I went out a few times as an operator on Gresley Beat. We had a huge crowd everywhere we went and seeing 4 or 5 trains going at once was spectacular. After 20 minutes I was bored stiff just running trains round a circuit. Not many people would operate a home based layout for two or three solid days, so the requirements for a home layout and an exhibition layout are quite different.

 

You are quite right in that it all comes down to what the layout builder wants from their creation. Some are perfectly happy with a parade of trains to watch. Others like the more intricate type of operation. There is no right and wrong, just different styles and personal preferences.

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

i agree entirely. A layout can be fantastic to watch and boring to operate and be a real "showstopper" at exhibitions. I went out a few times as an operator on Gresley Beat. We had a huge crowd everywhere we went and seeing 4 or 5 trains going at once was spectacular. After 20 minutes I was bored stiff just running trains round a circuit. Not many people would operate a home based layout for two or three solid days, so the requirements for a home layout and an exhibition layout are quite different.

 

You are quite right in that it all comes down to what the layout builder wants from their creation. Some are perfectly happy with a parade of trains to watch. Others like the more intricate type of operation. There is no right and wrong, just different styles and personal preferences.

I was at an exhibition recently, won't name it.

 

There was a lovely 2mm layout - single line branch, end to end with the station in the middle.

 

It was about 12 feet long so it was a trains in the landscape model but they only had three trains - each move involved sending one of the three trains to the other end.  It had a single operator and the trains were running very slowly (as they should, no argument there).  For me the viewer it was ok, I got to watch a train trundle along, for the operator the tedium was etched onto his very soul, I did engage in conversation but it wasn't raising his day.  Each move also basically required the solitary operator to walk the length of the model to the other fiddleyard to turn the train on it's cassette before dispatching it or one of the other trains back the other way. 

 

How they managed two days of this I really do not know and it wasn't helped that they were off in a corner away from most of the activity I think compounding the isolation.