Wright writes.....

[queensquare]

36 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I haven't seen that before. Wow! Very impressive and ambitious. I hope I get to have a play some day!

Always welcome Tony.

 

Jerry

[Clive Mortimore]

58 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks for all the recent comments about layouts and operation. A wide spectrum, from which, I think, we can all learn. 

 

Clearly there's no layout (whatever scale/gauge) that suits everyone. For instance, my approach to operating a layout is totally different from Tony Gee's. In fact, I'm not sure whether I actually enjoy operating all that much. I rarely did on Stoke and Charwelton (doing what I do best - wind-bagging at the end of them!), and I never operate LB by myself. I much prefer building things rather than running them, though everything I make must work. Work hard, work smoothly, work quietly and not derail! 

 

I think that what we might all agree on is this. If a layout is well-built, looks realistic, follows prototype practice in all aspects (though not necessarily a model of an actual place) and runs well - the last-mentioned, most important - then it's worth looking at, even if the operation might not entirely be what we enjoy the most. The two P4 layouts shown recently in action on here prove that the finest 4mm gauge can work superbly, and, I hope, the recent rerun of LB proves that it works, in OO (even if the trains stop and start too quickly!). 

 

Poor running, I cannot tolerate (again, whatever the scale gauge). I've mentioned this before, but two years or so ago at Spalding two 4mm layouts were back-to-back. One was in P4, the other in OO. The former ran superbly (St. Merryn), the other (not named for obvious reasons) didn't.  

Hello Tony

 

I use to be in the "build not run gang" until I built Sheffield Exchange Mk1 which was a Minories style layout. I would pop out to the garage to do some modelling, while in there temptation would over take and I would say "I will only run a couple". I would look at the clock "Oh my God!! I was supposed to be in bed an hour ago." No modelling again.

 

Now I am really lucky I mix operating with modelling. If in a modelling mood I put some music on and will set two trains off around the room. Every now and then have a break from modelling, swap the trains over, post something on RMweb and if there is a tune I like have a little dance. I have found operating is much more fun if the stock stays on the track, and the trains move when told to. If I have to resort to the hand of Odin the offending loco or DMU is whipped off the track and the problem sorted. If the hand of Vishnu is needed to put something back on the track where my poor operating hasn't been the cause, the fault be it track or stock is sorted. Apart from errors by the fat bald bloke Sheffield Exchange runs very well. I am now not sure if I am in the driving trains group or the making things club. One thing I know all the dance companies in our area have said "No thanks."

Edited October 31, 2019 by Clive Mortimore
Wrong There Their They're

[t-b-g]

48 minutes ago, MJI said:

Am I unusual in being happy to just watch them run.

 

Complex running to timetables, not really interested, building and watching is more fun. This is where train sets win, start them up and watch them.

 

My under construction for 20 years garage layout will be converted to continuous run eventually so I can kick off a couple and watch them pass by.

 

In the words of Tom Jones, "It's not unusual". If anything, the full on operation enthusiast is in the minority. You mention block bells and people roll their eyes and sigh, usually passing some overused Notre Dame reference! You really do get all sorts in he hobby, from the builder who just wants to see their creations running to the person who will operate quite happily using all RTR stuff. In between is the person who builds their models and then enjoys operating them rather than just running them. I see myself in that group but here are not that many of us!

 

I agree that there is something satisfying about having a continuous run, so that you can do some modelling as the trains run through the scenery. You couldn't operate Buckingham or Narrow Road and carry out some model making at the same time! 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

You mention block bells and people roll their eyes and sigh,

 

I never saw Heckmondwyke - I'm too young - but I read somewhere someone commenting on its atmosphere - the bells rang, the down main signals came off, there was an expectant hush - a Jubilee on a down express? No, engine and brake - somehow archetypically Midland, to my thinking.

[Allegheny1600]

16 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I think that is very true Phil. As a rule of thumb, it seems that layouts that attract viewers at exhibitions are not very exciting to operate and vice versa.

While this is a very true rule in my experience, an exception to this rule must be most of Bob Harper's layouts!

For those who don't know him, Bob is a rather talented modeller of GWR broad (& standard!) gauge in 7mm fs as well as a very keen American narrow gauge modeller in 3' and/or 2' gauge in 1/48 scale. He is most emphatically NOT an 0n30 modeller!!!

As a one-time fellow member of the Manchester MRS, I was privileged on a few occasions to operate his large "basement" style empire as well as various of his exhibition layouts - none of which were ever boring to operate, always intellectually challenging and stimulating.

Personally, I always found them interesting/fascinating to watch too but I fear the subject matter would put many off. Even I, with my very catholic tastes, didn't much like some of his more esoteric US narrow gauge locos!

However, operating them was great fun, principally because they usually worked well.

He does still travel the country so if you see his name, try and observe any of his layouts.

Cheers,

John.

[t-b-g]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I never saw Heckmondwyke - I'm too young - but I read somewhere someone commenting on its atmosphere - the bells rang, the down main signals came off, there was an expectant hush - a Jubilee on a down express? No, engine and brake - somehow archetypically Midland, to my thinking.

 

In that case the signalman rang the wrong bells! You should know what type of train is coming. 4 bells for the express, 2 pause 3 for the light engine and brake (on the GCR that would be the code, they did vary).

 

I see it time and time again on layouts. One operator will ask the other, often quite loudly to be heard above the background sound of an exhibition, "Can you take a pick up goods?".

 

The real railway had a perfectly easy to reproduce method of offering and accepting trains. To be fair, we use a simplified system and only use about 10 different codes but it is just so much more railwaylike than shouting from one end of the layout to the other. Of course if you are sending trains to yourself, or just running them round a circuit, it becomes a bit daft unless you have an "Automatic Crispin"! For a layout with multiple operating positions and operators, it is as good a way of passing rains from one to the other as any. I have seen it done with lights rather than bells. That works just as well and if anybody is offended by a few bell noises, they could always do that instead.

[gr.king]

While strict running to sequence can be interesting for the operators, and use of bell codes can add another dimension to the interest and the realism, experience tells me that such things are NOT desirable in exhibition conditions when not only are there mixed levels of ability among the operators, but also that the more able, quicker, more enthusiastic members of the crew insist on trying to push the pace to maintain the moving spectacle for the viewers. All that achieves is annoyance and fatigue for those operators who need to proceed more calmly, slowly and methodically, in turn risking disaffection and loss of vital contributions to the layout as a whole.

Allowance has also to be made for engaging verbally with interested members of the public. Strict attention to the job, like an isolated signalman, is not a realistic goal.

Edited October 31, 2019 by gr.king

[The Johnster]

And the bells will drive your neighbours up the wall at an exhibition. 

 

Other good ways of annoying them are...

Edited October 31, 2019 by The Johnster

[t-b-g]

18 minutes ago, gr.king said:

While strict running to sequence can be interesting for the operators, and use of bell codes can add another dimension to the interest and the realism, experience tells me that such things are NOT desirable in exhibition conditions when not only are there mixed levels of ability among the operators, but also that the more able, quicker, more enthusiastic members of the crew insist on trying to push the pace to maintain the moving spectacle for the viewers. All that achieves is annoyance and fatigue for those operators who need to proceed more calmly, slowly and methodically, in turn risking disaffection and loss of vital contributions to the layout as a whole.

Allowance has also to be made for engaging verbally with interested members of the public. Strict attention to the job, like an isolated signalman, is not a realistic goal.

 

You are quite right. You need a good team who are not only very familiar with the operation of the layout but able to run the layout and chat to the public, often at the same time.

 

The only layout I have run with bell codes at a show is Leighton Buzzard. Operating with one of my regular Buckingham operators, with Stephen and Crispin Denny, it is just second nature and we use it to engage with the viewers by explaining how real railways used to send a train to the next station. We even ask volunteers if they want to have a go. It has always gone down very well. It added a big extra dimension to working what was otherwise a very simple branch terminus and made i more interesting for us and the viewers.

 

When you get a good team like that, the experience is very enjoyable and rewarding. Without that level of ability and skill, there is little point in trying. It can get very frustrating! All you can do in that situation is go at the speed of the least able operator, relax and not get up tight about it. If more experienced operators are putting less experienced ones under pressure, then they are guilty of taking away the pleasure of operating at shows and that is not a good thing under any circumstances. I have seen it myself, when you get somebody who wants to show how clever and good they are at operating by showing up those less skilled. I really do not like to see it.

 

What I find is that when I run a layout without bells now, I find myself, calling out ding, ding, (slight pause) ding when a train arrives. It is catching and one or two others have started doing it now. It has become the natural way of saying "Move finished, next move can start please!" Is there a cure? 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

What I find is that when I run a layout without bells now, I find myself, calling out ding, ding, (slight pause) ding when a train arrives. It is catching and one or two others have started doing it now. It has become the natural way of saying "Move finished, next move can start please!" Is there a cure? 

 

Careful - you'll be chuffing and whistling next...

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

And the bells will drive your neighbours up the wall at an exhibition. 

 

Other good ways of annoying them are...

 

We had a volume control. If you stuffed the right amount of tissue into the bell, you could just hear it at the other end of the layout but no further. A loud bell echoing all the way across the hall is just as annoying as the constant wall of DCC sound.

 

We operated LB once at a show with another layout way across the hall that had really loud bells. Every time they rang "call attention" both our operators would look up and say "Was that you?". There is no need.

[t-b-g]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Careful - you'll be chuffing and whistling next...

 

I get all the sound I need in my imagination. Although once or twice, I have been known..........

[Barry O]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I never saw Heckmondwyke - I'm too young - but I read somewhere someone commenting on its atmosphere - the bells rang, the down main signals came off, there was an expectant hush - a Jubilee on a down express? No, engine and brake - somehow archetypically Midland, to my thinking.

If only the train had turned up.in the times I saw it that was not always a regular occurrence. 

 

Baz

[Hitchin Junction]

Only just came across this silent chuffing and whistling treasure trove, while I was looking for steam trains starting. 

 

https://www.huntleyarchives.com/collection.asp?collection=the+flying+scotsman

 

Presumably it's already well known?

 

Does make me think that too many model steam railway layouts have the wrong sort of weather

 

Tim

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

In that case the signalman rang the wrong bells! You should know what type of train is coming. 4 bells for the express, 2 pause 3 for the light engine and brake (on the GCR that would be the code, they did vary).

 

I see it time and time again on layouts. One operator will ask the other, often quite loudly to be heard above the background sound of an exhibition, "Can you take a pick up goods?".

 

The real railway had a perfectly easy to reproduce method of offering and accepting trains. To be fair, we use a simplified system and only use about 10 different codes but it is just so much more railwaylike than shouting from one end of the layout to the other. Of course if you are sending trains to yourself, or just running them round a circuit, it becomes a bit daft unless you have an "Automatic Crispin"! For a layout with multiple operating positions and operators, it is as good a way of passing rains from one to the other as any. I have seen it done with lights rather than bells. That works just as well and if anybody is offended by a few bell noises, they could always do that instead.

Hi Tony

 

I have been at an exhibition where this chap was operating a layout by himself and using bell codes. He had a bell for the terminal station and one for the box ahead/behind in the fiddle yard.  I was so pleased it was only a one day show.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Careful - you'll be chuffing and whistling next...

So?

 

Nothing wrong with that. The hard part when running a class 127 DMU and doing the Brumming is not to throttle down to change gear as they had a torque converter and we not driven like other DMUs. 

Brummmmmmmmm

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Tony

 

I have been at an exhibition where this chap was operating a layout by himself and using bell codes. He had a bell for the terminal station and one for the box ahead/behind in the fiddle yard.  I was so pleased it was only a one day show.

 

 

 

I think I saw him too. I thought it was very strange and just didn't seem right somehow. The whole purpose is to tell another operator you are ready to send a train. If you are also that other operator, hopefully you know just what you are going to send to yourself and when. I wonder if he ever caught himself out and sent himself the wrong bell code?

[t-b-g]

6 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

So?

 

Nothing wrong with that. The hard part when running a class 127 DMU and doing the Brumming is not to throttle down to change gear as they had a torque converter and we not driven like other DMUs. 

Brummmmmmmmm

 

Can you do the rattling window noise too?

[Clive Mortimore]

2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Can you do the rattling window noise too?

That is a work in progress.

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

So?

 

Nothing wrong with that. The hard part when running a class 127 DMU and doing the Brumming is not to throttle down to change gear as they had a torque converter and we not driven like other DMUs. 

Brummmmmmmmm

It's all one colour

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Thinking about this I really don't see the issue with using a re-gauged RTR coach for testing.  What should come first, the stock or the track ? 

 

As a lone builder I wouldn't contemplate building the stock then the track so it could be tested that way. Part of the enjoyment for me is seeing what you've built, running on what you've laid.

 

As for compensated bogies, I'd say it's a testament to the track layers skill that they're maybe not required.

Good afternoon Dave,

 

In my own case, historically I've been building the locos/stock as others have been building the track, so they've then been mutually tested. An advantage, I admit, over the lone modeller. 

 

I just think it's a bit of a waste of time re-gauging stock which, in all probability, won't be used in the final analysis. Or, in the case mentioned, I'd be surprised if it were. Unless there is no other stock to test the layout with, though the goods vehicles didn't look RTR.

 

All the above said, I agree it should be track first, then stock. And nothing should take away from the outstanding achievement in the resurrection of Ambergate and converting it to P4. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[Tony Wright]

Though I accept that bell codes were used by the real railways to send trains between 'boxes, that was because those 'boxes were distant from each other. The was no means of verbal communication (other than the telephone), even if the bobby shouted!

 

What I find slightly absurd is the situation where, say, two operators of a layout are so close to each other that just a whisper will convey which train is coming. They'll often be standing back to back, yet still ring bells! Granted, if the operators are far enough apart to make verbal communication difficult, then bell codes are fine. They can be irritating, however, especially if the bells are too loud, though not as irritating as constantly throbbing diesels alongside.  

[BMacdermott]

4 hours ago, queensquare said:

 

I'm with Tony G when it comes to operation and I'm fortunate that Bath offers great operating potential - two goods yards, two sheds and two distinct routes dividing at Bath junction. With the exception of a few locals that started or terminated at Bath, the station essentially worked as a through station with trains heading north over the Midland  or south over the S&D reversing and changing locos at Bath so plenty to keep operators busy.

Jerry

 

 

Hello Jerry

 

I fully concur with you there!

 

If you run to the timetables of Mon-Fri and then Summer Saturday, they are almost 'chalk & cheese' in flavour. Even a Sunday timetable could have merits - if only to rest the nerves after a Saturday.

 

All the best for the project.

 

Brian

[queensquare]

49 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Jerry

 

I fully concur with you there!

 

If you run to the timetables of Mon-Fri and then Summer Saturday, they are almost 'chalk & cheese' in flavour. Even a Sunday timetable could have merits - if only to rest the nerves after a Saturday.

 

All the best for the project.

 

Brian

 

Thanks Brian,

 

I shall be running a weekday timetable. Much as Id like to, I don't think I will live long enough to build the stock required for a summer saturday!

 

Jerry

[jollysmart]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

What I find is that when I run a layout without bells now, I find myself, calling out ding, ding, (slight pause) ding when a train arrives. It is catching and one or two others have started doing it now. It has become the natural way of saying "Move finished, next move can start please!" Is there a cure? 

 

The only model railway club I have ever been a member of, as a junior in the very early 70's, had a bell system over what was quite an extensive system running around two large rooms. The newcomers position on the branch line was run with full bell codes from the box down on the main, very interesting to use and certainly made it more realistic. On graduation from the branch things got more complicated in the main line boxes but all good fun and a learning experience.

Edited October 31, 2019 by jollysmart