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Tony Wright

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10 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Mick,

 

I have a high res version of this image, it is of B1 1016 Inyala not 1037. Tony may find the elaborate lining of the frames and the lower patform above the buffer beam of interes for his book.

 

 

 

Errr yes, senior moment , I will now have to find the photo I used !!! thanks.

 

Yes, very good red lines showing on the lining. Hornby got them right as well.

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9 minutes ago, micklner said:

Errr yes, senior moment , I will now have to find the photo I used !!! thanks.

 

Yes, very good red lines showing on the lining. Hornby got them right as well.

 

Mick,

 

as far as I know that lining style was unique to Inyala, though there may have been others outshoped at the same time. If it is present on Hornb's BR/LNER green 61310 (it wasn't on the one I was given) then it would be wrong.

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9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Mick,

 

as far as I know that lining style was unique to Inyala, though there may have been others outshoped at the same time. If it is present on Hornb's BR/LNER green 61310 (it wasn't on the one I was given) then it would be wrong.

 

Indeed at least one other was outshopped from Darlington with the same lining above the front buffer beam  Yeadon’s Register vol 6, page 7, shows 1013 also with this feature so it may have been a small batch.  1013 was outshopped in December 1946 (just one month before 1016). 

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I was wondering if there are any people with knowledge of working in a signal box operating the block system on here. I wrote a program in Visual Basic about 20 years ago emulating the workings of a signal box. It hasn't worked for much of that time - visual Basic is pretty well obsolete as far as I know. However, I had a look at it yesterday and with a bit of tweaking, I got it working.  However, when I wrote the program, with up-to-date knowledge I know I got a few things wrong. For instance, when alerting the adjacent box there is a call to attention (1-0-0) but I now believe that's only used for offering new trains forward and doesn't precede train entering section and train leaving section calls (2-0-0 and 2-1-0 respectively). Can anyone confirm that? Also when a train is offered and accepted, at what point would the signalman offer this train forward? Can he do so straight away or would he wait till he got a train entering section from the preceding box? I realise the answers to these questions may not be fixed in the wool but may depend on the length of the sections. 

 

Here's a quick look at what the program looks like. As you can see, computer programming has come on a lot since I wrote this!

 

Thanks in advance for any help...

 

IMG_0533_rdcd.jpg.6c63caaf5d1b1cb1f30d5a338d709a7a.jpg

Edited by Clem
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You are partially correct. Dealing with current practice, "Call attention" (1 beat) precedes every other signal except for "train entering section" (two beats) and the various emergency codes (which I'm assuming you aren't interested in for modelling purposes). Going back in time, the GWR and BR(WR) did not use "call attention" before "train out of section"  (two pause one) until the various regional differences in bellcodes were eliminated in 1972. A further GWR variation was that the "train out of section" signal was not acknowledged.

 

In standard working, a signalman will offer a train forward on receipt of "train entering section" from the box  in rear. However, if sections are short, trains may be offered on immediately they are accepted. This will be specified, when necessary, in  the special instructions for each signal box  (called "footnotes" on the Western).

 

Stuart J

Edited by 4069
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23 hours ago, MJI said:

 

I liked this seen some of the locos, Pendennis Castle at Bulmers (with Flying Scotsman AFAIR) when I was very small.

 

Will admit to 08 hunting to see if I recognised any.

 

 

This has me thinking. Isn't time a Castle was seen running through LB?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/5375154070

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Clem said:

I wrote a program in Visual Basic about 20 years ago emulating the workings of a signal box. It hasn't worked for much of that time - visual Basic is pretty well obsolete as far as I know.

Hi

 

Visual Basic is still going strong. I am currently using VB 2010 & VB 2017 at work.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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On Buckingham, at Grandborough Junction, as soon as a down non stopping train is offered and accepted (from the fiddle yard) it has to be offered to Buckingham as the electrical switches on the signals at GJ put the Buckingham controller on the track. If the signals are not pulled at GJ to allow it to run through, it doesn't go at all. I had often wondered how close to prototype practice that aspect was.

 

A train stopping at Grandborough is run on the GJ controller and is offered to Buckingham once it has stopped there.

 

We do not usually call attention for the 2 or the 2-1 bells but then again, I learned bells on a GWR layout. The Peter Denny written instructions don't mention calling attention for them, so we are happy to go with that.

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4 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

Visual Basic is still going strong. I am currently using VB 2010 & VB 2017 at work.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Hi Paul. I presume it is very different to VB6 which is used on mine. (I wrote it in VB4, upped it to VB5 and until yesterday never managed to get it working in VB6). I'm really out of practice with it  and wouldn't have managed to rewrite it now (without some serious revision). Luckily it only needed a few tweaks.

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11 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

Indeed at least one other was outshopped from Darlington with the same lining above the front buffer beam  Yeadon’s Register vol 6, page 7, shows 1013 also with this feature so it may have been a small batch.  1013 was outshopped in December 1946 (just one month before 1016). 

 

Morning Phil,

 

I would not be surprised if the batch of engines, 1010 to 1039, turned out by Darlington in 1946, were all lined out in the same manner.

 

Darlington had a habit of doing things it's own way, The riveted tenders with separate coping plates and the refurbished tenders coupled to 1010, 1011, 1038 and 1039 would mean that none of this batch can be represented by the Hornby model without quite a bit of modification.

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8 minutes ago, Clem said:

Hi Paul. I presume it is very different to VB6 which is used on mine. (I wrote it in VB4, upped it to VB5 and until yesterday never managed to get it working in VB6). I'm really out of practice with it  and wouldn't have managed to rewrite it now (without some serious revision). Luckily it only needed a few tweaks.

Hi

 

Its similar enough to copy the code from VB6 and then fix the syntactical errors but I would probably start again if I was doing this.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

On Buckingham, at Grandborough Junction, as soon as a down non stopping train is offered and accepted (from the fiddle yard) it has to be offered to Buckingham as the electrical switches on the signals at GJ put the Buckingham controller on the track. If the signals are not pulled at GJ to allow it to run through, it doesn't go at all. I had often wondered how close to prototype practice that aspect was.

 

A train stopping at Grandborough is run on the GJ controller and is offered to Buckingham once it has stopped there.

 

We do not usually call attention for the 2 or the 2-1 bells but then again, I learned bells on a GWR layout. The Peter Denny written instructions don't mention calling attention for them, so we are happy to go with that.

Hi Tony. Yes I thought that was the case. It's one of the things I'll have to change to get it working more as per the prototype. At the moment, it picks up trains from the working timetable (database) and the boxes each side offer the trains. When accepted the line is set to clear. But I don't offer the train on to the next box until I get a train entering section from the originating box. It would only be at the point when train is accepted at the next box that the layout signals would be pulled off. The nice thing about it is that when the trains arrive, I've got them picking up sound from selected from another database of authentic sounds (many from the Nottingham-Derby Friargate line). Oh, and the bell noises are samples of Kimberley signal box bells. I'm hoping to use it fully to operate my layout in conjunction with the layout's levers/signals when they're all finished.

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1 hour ago, Coach bogie said:

 

This has me thinking. Isn't time a Castle was seen running through LB?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/5375154070

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

 

It's already happened, Mike,

 

A long time ago, mind................

 

Castle.jpg.f1c92dff3b80fdd4c50935e839e49b73.jpg

 

It belongs to Westerner (Alan), and I think it's a modified Hornby item.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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At the Warley Show, there was a stand selling loads of unmade kits, some of quite an age.

 

One friend considered some of them to be of 'dubious' quality. 

 

Anyway, here's one...................

 

1983326954_McGowanB12301.jpg.a7716c490191f6bb4bad615ca6fa5b05.jpg

 

An old McGowan B12/3. It can't be that old, because it came with a rather nice, fully-detailed etched set of frames (along with the useless cast metal ones as well). There's also a rather nice set of etches for the original valances (not that I need those). 

 

Of course, it's a bit outdated by today's standards, and I've just worked out how much it's cost me in total. The kit wasn't expensive, so by the time wheels/motor/gearbox have been factored-in, it's about £110.00 complete.

 

Now, what does a fully-finished, latest Hornby B12/3 cost? More than that I'd expect. 

 

Which set me thinking................ So far, this is about ten hours' work to reach this stage. It runs well and is very powerful, and, so far, all has gone well. With the 'enjoyment' in making this factored-in, I now think it's exceptional value for money. How does one quantify the pleasure/cost when making a loco? No doubt, all told, even if it's painted professionally, it won't be as good as a Hornby RTR B12/3. However, in my case, so what? I always put a far greater value on things which have been personally-made, way over acquisitions. 

 

A personal point of view, of course............

 

This means there are now only 27 loco kits to be started. I'd better get some more! 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Of course, it's a bit outdated by today's standards, and I've just worked out how much it's cost me in total. The kit wasn't expensive, so by the time wheels/motor/gearbox have been factored-in, it's about £110.00 complete.

 

But it still looks better than the pre-New Tooling Hornby B12/3s and there's the added bonus of not having any fiddly valve gear to construct!

 

Edited by Hroth
fingers in a twist...
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So  Tony, allowing for your present work rate to continue unabated,  stash of kits should be built in just over six months!  Wish I could build at that rate!  The calculation only came into my head because at Sleaford club on Wednesday night we of the Bantry group were asked will it be ready for a May debut? No of weeks x  hours in the evening = less than a week. Do they still sell Midnight Oil at hardware shops?

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2 hours ago, Headstock said:

I would not be surprised if the batch of engines, 1010 to 1039, turned out by Darlington in 1946, were all lined out in the same manner.

There's a photo of 1018 in 'LNER Locomotives in Colour 1936-1948' (White &  Johnston, Colourpoint, 2002) evidently taken when it was still only a few months old.  Red lining on the outer face of the frame extensions, but not on the area where the front apron rises up to the running plate.

 

D

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This might be of interest if anyone is following the planning and building of my N/2mm layout - and it is sort of modelling. I've now got the full depth of the layout (at it's widest point/end) worked out with the north/south road finalised, although not complete. I've managed to keep it under the max of 3'6" I planned for it with compression. It needs to be quite wide to accommodate the through and terminus stations which are just east of it. However it will taper down towards the other end. In the pic below the north ends abruptly at the start of London Bridge itself where the backscene board will be. 

 

The difficult bit was working out all the complex slopes that exist (no large area of roads is billiard table/baseboard flat), but hopefully I think I've got them suitably incorporated. Basically the road rises from front to back (bottom to top in the pic below) to go over the Thames with lots of other slopes leading off either up to London Bridge station or down to Tooley Street.

 

369503006_Roadmap.jpg.c6caa05f9761f9d06e954ac055a488a1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

Now, what does a fully-finished, latest Hornby B12/3 cost? More than that I'd expect. 

 

 

 

Currently £123 for a brand new one in BR lined black, according to a well known retailer near Liverpool.... they list it as a BARGAIN.   :)

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4 hours ago, 4069 said:

You are partially correct. Dealing with current practice, "Call attention" (1 beat) precedes every other signal except for "train entering section" (two beats) and the various emergency codes (which I'm assuming you aren't interested in for modelling purposes). Going back in time, the GWR and BR(WR) did not use "call attention" before "train out of section"  (two pause one) until the various regional differences in bellcodes were eliminated in 1972. A further GWR variation was that the "train out of section" signal was not acknowledged.

 

In standard working, a signalman will offer a train forward on receipt of "train entering section" from the box  in rear. However, if sections are short, trains may be offered on immediately they are accepted. This will be specified, when necessary, in  the special instructions for each signal box  (called "footnotes" on the Western).

 

Stuart J

Thanks Stuart I somehow missed your reply earlier. This is just the clarification I was looking for. I'm modelling an ex-LNER line in BR days circa 1955, so it sounds like the only adjustment I need is to remove the call attention signal for the train entering section stage. There are other tweaks that will be desirable but it works well enough even now. 

 

Cheers 

 

Clem

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2 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said:

There's a photo of 1018 in 'LNER Locomotives in Colour 1936-1948' (White &  Johnston, Colourpoint, 2002) evidently taken when it was still only a few months old.  Red lining on the outer face of the frame extensions, but not on the area where the front apron rises up to the running plate.

 

D

 

Good spot Daryl,


Northing surprises me about these locomotives. I haven't bothered to look at any images to see if there are any differences myself. If I were to Delve too deep beyond the locomotives that I am modelling, it tends to deflect the focus and takes up a lot of modelling time. As long as I have a general understanding and the B1's that I have personally built, converted or renovated are 100% correct, I'm happy. Any information that comes to light is valuable, I would certainly be wanting to incorporate the correct livery variations into a model that I was creating. There are anomaly's in the model of 1037 Jairou that are apparent from just a general understanding of the subject. A deep dive would be more revealing but would also gobble up time and the loco is not that relevant to my own modelling.


If I was writing a book I would be obliged to be more diligent across the entire subject. It will be up to Tony, as a pro, to go through tons of pictures of every locomotive in the batch to get his book (or could it multiple books) right. I will certainly be purchasing a copy, providing that the book is a proper historical piece. One that assigns equal weight to the full timeline of the B1's and not just another one of those late 50's, early 60's nostalgia pieces. I'm sure the latter will not be the case.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good spot Daryl,


Northing surprises me about these locomotives. I haven't bothered to look at any images to see if there are any differences myself. If I were to Delve too deep beyond the locomotives that I am modelling, it tends to deflect the focus and takes up a lot of modelling time. As long as I have a general understanding and the B1's that I have personally built, converted or renovated are 100% correct, I'm happy. Any information that comes to light is valuable, I would certainly be wanting to incorporate the correct livery variations into a model that I was creating. There are anomaly's in the model of 1037 Jairou that are apparent from just a general understanding of the subject. A deep dive would be more revealing but would also gobble up time and the loco is not that relevant to my own modelling.


If I was writing a book I would be obliged to be more diligent across the entire subject. It will be up to Tony, as a pro, to go through tons of pictures of every locomotive in the batch to get his book (or could it multiple books) right. I will certainly be purchasing a copy, providing that the book is a proper historical piece. One that assigns equal weight to the full timeline of the B1's and not just another one of those late 50's, early 60's nostalgia pieces. I'm sure the latter will not be the case.

I hope I can live up to the weight of your expectation, Andrew..................

 

Having discussed the format with Chris Hawkins yesterday, I hope that the books (at least two) of the B1s will be different from what's gone before. I don't mean 'better', but different. For instance, there will not be build dates and scrapping dates for each loco. Allocations will be mentioned where they're pertinent to a working. 

 

For instance...........

 

1776047406_6107901.jpg.cdd210bd8d434a74beaca8011eb22409.jpg

 

Let's examine this brilliant shot taken at Peterborough in the late '50s (my date guess here). Not too late, because the loco isn't fitted with AWS (checking will have to be done to make sure it ever was fitted). The loco is shedded at Immingham, so it's reasonable to assume that it's probably a Kings Cross-Cleethorpes express (or at least a train for the East Lincs line). Prior to the introduction of the Brits, B1s had these expresses. But, what an express. I can find this consist in none of my BR documents. In it, one can make out a pressure-ventilated FK (the third car), ex-one of the post-War 'Scotsman' sets. There are at least three BR Mk.1s, plus a Thompson CK, as well as Gresley stock, including a late-build all-door TK. My guess it's a summer Saturday service. 

 

The loco is in full forward gear, so that probably means a check by Crescent 'box, prior to stopping. 

 

Note the loco's lamps - set at different heights, though both on tall brackets. These suggest a loco due to be fitted with electric lighting, but never carried. 

 

And, just look at the Peterborough layout. Despite the dog-leg, isn't the main formation straight? Straight enough for current non-stop trains to fly through at speed. 

 

Are these observations all pertinent to this B1? I think so, and my intention is to write captions along these lines. Boiler changes (which have been published elsewhere, will not be mentioned, though different smokebox doors will). 

 

Next, how about this?

 

300091201_6140201small.jpg.4bd6529e96cc7239a738d9b28f719390.jpg

 

Location unknown at the moment (any ideas?), but obviously in Scotland. It's the 'Fife Coast Express', though it only qualifies as a Class B working (note just one lamp). Note also the high position of the front numberplate on the loco, because of the close position of the hingestraps. 

 

The train's consist is five cars, a triplet 2nd and a twin 1st, all from the pre-War 'Silver Jubilee (the catering triplet from that great train was used in a fast Newcastle-Kings Cross service by this time). The cars are in maroon, carry the BR roundel, but are not lined, though the stainless steel horizontal beading appears to be exposed. 

 

These sorts of captions are how I'm going to approach the writing of these books - much more (I hope) than just where and when the loco was built and when it was withdrawn/scrapped. Those facts are important, though they've all been published before. 

 

For obvious copyright reasons, I won't be posting many more, even though I have a least 500 shots to choose from! 

 

Please, all, respect copyright limitations

 

Any comments, from anyone, please.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

Currently £123 for a brand new one in BR lined black, according to a well known retailer near Liverpool.... they list it as a BARGAIN.   :)

That does sound good value, Phil,

 

Especially as it's at least £150.00 to have one I've made painted (professionally) in BR lined black. 

 

However, I won't be buying a Hornby one (however good) for the reasons I've mentioned many times before. Anyway, I already have two completed/painted B12/3s...................

 

 

392353139_RM019B12onLeicester.jpg.c92dc6650b044b56f3fce24d3c57a8b3.jpg

 

840642675_BRMLB13B12onLeicester.jpg.14f50cdd1295ac2be24a59ca88c6a72f.jpg

 

I built this one from a PDK kit, and Ian Rathbone painted it (beautifully). I use it on the 'Leicester', on the MR/M&GNR bit of LB.

 

793991782_B1261553.jpg.02fdb689cefad184b960714139e6cf1d.jpg

 

There's one on the main line as well (like the one on the east-west route, a little earlier than 1958, but it's my trainset). 

 

I built/painted/weathered this one, using a Coopercraft kit, one of only three known to have been built and working - Jonathan Wealleans and Chris Trafford, please take a bow! 

 

I can't decide whether to have the latest one I'm building, Grantham-allocated or one from South Lynn. We'll see.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Edited by Tony Wright
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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The cars are in maroon, carry the BR roundel, but are not lined, though the stainless steel horizontal beading appears to be exposed.

 

 

I'm afraid that I'm not convinced. I see the upper surface of the coach beading reflecting the light - as is the edge of the roof and the upper surface of the boiler handrail of the loco.

 

I am equally dubious about whether or not the coaches are lined - at least on the waistline. If they are unlined, they're the first unlined maroon coaches carrying roundels that I've ever come across; .... and as for exposed stainless steel beading on a maroon coach?

 

When it comes to captions, less is often more. If you can't point to irrefutable proof for everything stated, it's best left out.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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