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Tony Wright

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17 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Always referred to on the Southern (possibly elsewhere too) as Stokes bogies. Or should that be Stokes' bogies?

 

Pronounced Stokes or Stokeses?

 

For the Stockton & Darlington, William Bouch, brother of Tay Bridge Thomas, built Ginx's Babies, which I've always supposed to be pronounced "jinkses" though who Ginx was I do not know.

 

 

image.png

 

Edit: I don't think the photo is of one. I think it's one of the earlier and less jinxed 7' Saltburn class.

Edited by Compound2632
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13 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

What an absolutely beautiful  locomotive, and this comes from an O scale American railroad modeller who loves plug ugly Yank diesels !!!!

 

Last Saturday I went with family on a shopping expedition to Liverpool. The train out was a brand new 331 EMU, a nice looking train but the seats as hard as nails, as was the riding quality over rough track. Coming home at Lime St I closely observed the new Trans Pennine loco hauled Scarborough train, a new something or other diesel electric loco an a new push pull coach set. Coaches looked nice and comfortable, loco looked quite swish & modern but oh !!  what a noise it made. I could hear the noisy bu**er idling when passing through the ticket barriers. Some young uns were photographing it at the end of the platform. Good to see young spotters these days. Brand new locos on brand new push pull coaches - who would have thought that a few years ago !! Anyway home to Wigan on an ancient 319 EMU, swift(ish) quiet and comfortable.

 

Our railways are getting a bit more interesting these days, but oh for a trip behind locos such as the above !!!

 

Brit15

 

 

'Coming home at Lime St I closely observed the new Trans Pennine loco hauled Scarborough train, a new something or other diesel electric loco an a new push pull coach set. Coaches looked nice and comfortable, loco looked quite swish & modern'

 

I think this is what you saw.................

 

262911165_6801.jpg.3ed42f6801afcb57386a2f5159ec2525.jpg

 

2091597552_6802.jpg.e0e787f13c21295ec8505a22ce62e956.jpg

 

19493650_6803.jpg.2e3f81ca349dbb7484f120519a0fe6f9.jpg

 

68_04.jpg.f24dd7a7ef825cada21d891e22498dfc.jpg

 

1382330787_6805.jpg.5a861d25f2f038e2980d320734bf2078.jpg

 

2044654103_6806.jpg.c9c245cb3c25ebea0fc0882ecf5a4409.jpg

 

454930816_6807.jpg.8afe7066f68eb357f4137c29f4bc3940.jpg

 

Taken at York on the 15th of October, after I'd been invited to the announcement about the Wainwright D. Entering, stationary and departing..................

 

I have to say I'm ambivalent about the aesthetics of the above. 

 

1383613602_WainwrightD01.jpg.7bffa47e4bb1ef5e34eb99f889cd50a8.jpg

 

I have no ambivalence about the aesthetics of the Wainwright D. Surely one of the most beautiful locos of all time, with a (complex) livery to match. A livery which complements the forms to which it's applied, not something which looks like 'dazzle' camouflage! 

 

Speaking of aesthetics............................

 

1199407028_Azuma02.jpg.85a51154bb5340858558be605746a7b0.jpg

 

I'm not sure about this.

 

Taking this picture, my mind's eye went back to the first time I was at York, as a ten year old, 63 years ago.

 

Back then, I saw the likes of this........................1463581254_60006York1952.jpg.8e8ae601c371965bb6fb8405c9ca4560.jpg

 

Granted, this is about three/four years prior to 1956, but it's apposite. Aesthetics here? Indeed!

 

Note the 'spotters to the left - boys. There was none in October. Just old git 'spotters like me! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Barry O said:

You could change the livery as much as you like the chimney is too tall....

And could Bachmann supply non traction tyred wheelsets at a cost for those of us who do not want a locomotive to go round "Radius 1" curves and travel up the odd mountain??

Baz

'And could Bachmann supply non traction tyred wheelsets at a cost for those of us who do not want a locomotive to go round "Radius 1" curves and travel up the odd mountain??

Baz'

 

I don't think their main market is you, Baz.

 

You can make your own.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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The 68's do sound nice though. I heard one heading out of Leeds Station last week.

 

Jamie

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33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Pronounced Stokes or Stokeses?

Stokes - just a single syllable.

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34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Ginx

Any fule kno that Mr Jinx was the nemesis of Pixie and Dixie.

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18 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I have to say I'm ambivalent about the aesthetics of the above. 

Never mind the aesthetics - it's a proper train, with a loco and coaches. Be thankful for that.

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13 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'And could Bachmann supply non traction tyred wheelsets at a cost for those of us who do not want a locomotive to go round "Radius 1" curves and travel up the odd mountain??

Baz'

 

I don't think their main market is you, Baz.

 

You can make your own.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Conductive metal fillers are available - same style as Milliput. Pull the traction tyres out and fill the grooves.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Any fule kno that Mr Jinx was the nemesis of Pixie and Dixie.

 

Didn't Jinxy hate those meeeces to peeeces?

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Speaking of aesthetics............................

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1199407028_Azuma02.jpg.85a51154bb5340858558be605746a7b0.jpg

 

I'm not sure about this.

 

Taking this picture, my mind's eye went back to the first time I was at York, as a ten year old, 63 years ago.

 

Back then, I saw the likes of this........................https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1463581254_60006York1952.jpg.8e8ae601c371965bb6fb8405c9ca4560.jpg

 

Granted, this is about three/four years prior to 1956, but it's apposite. Aesthetics here? Indeed!

 

Note the 'spotters to the left - boys. There was none in October. Just old git 'spotters like me! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

I was struck by the similarity of the Azuma (class 800) and the Bugatti loco (A4?) front ends. Bung a funnel on top, stick a few buffers on the front and paint it a dull grey livery and it's a dead ringer.

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1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

I was struck by the similarity of the Azuma (class 800) and the Bugatti loco (A4?) front ends. Bung a funnel on top, stick a few buffers on the front and paint it a dull grey livery and it's a dead ringer.

 

Looking at those modern traction pictures and all I can say is that Kenneth Grange got his styling right.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

'Coming home at Lime St I closely observed the new Trans Pennine loco hauled Scarborough train, a new something or other diesel electric loco an a new push pull coach set. Coaches looked nice and comfortable, loco looked quite swish & modern'

 

I think this is what you saw.................

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/262911165_6801.jpg.3ed42f6801afcb57386a2f5159ec2525.jpg

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/2091597552_6802.jpg.e0e787f13c21295ec8505a22ce62e956.jpg

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/19493650_6803.jpg.2e3f81ca349dbb7484f120519a0fe6f9.jpg

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/68_04.jpg.f24dd7a7ef825cada21d891e22498dfc.jpg

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1382330787_6805.jpg.5a861d25f2f038e2980d320734bf2078.jpg

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/2044654103_6806.jpg.c9c245cb3c25ebea0fc0882ecf5a4409.jpg

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/454930816_6807.jpg.8afe7066f68eb357f4137c29f4bc3940.jpg

 

Taken at York on the 15th of October, after I'd been invited to the announcement about the Wainwright D. Entering, stationary and departing..................

 

I have to say I'm ambivalent about the aesthetics of the above. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1383613602_WainwrightD01.jpg.7bffa47e4bb1ef5e34eb99f889cd50a8.jpg

 

I have no ambivalence about the aesthetics of the Wainwright D. Surely one of the most beautiful locos of all time, with a (complex) livery to match. A livery which complements the forms to which it's applied, not something which looks like 'dazzle' camouflage! 

 

Speaking of aesthetics............................

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1199407028_Azuma02.jpg.85a51154bb5340858558be605746a7b0.jpg

 

I'm not sure about this.

 

Taking this picture, my mind's eye went back to the first time I was at York, as a ten year old, 63 years ago.

 

Back then, I saw the likes of this........................https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/1463581254_60006York1952.jpg.8e8ae601c371965bb6fb8405c9ca4560.jpg

 

Granted, this is about three/four years prior to 1956, but it's apposite. Aesthetics here? Indeed!

 

Note the 'spotters to the left - boys. There was none in October. Just old git 'spotters like me! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Put a Belpaire firebox on the Wainwright D and it could pass as a close cousin of the 11B I posted earlier. Superb elegance and artistry. Even in later days, with simplified and less exciting livery, it would still have shown those lovely lines and shapes.

 

Whereas the Class 68 will always be ugly!

 

 

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6 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Put a Belpaire firebox on the Wainwright D and it could pass as a close cousin of the 11B I posted earlier. Superb elegance and artistry. Even in later days, with simplified and less exciting livery, it would still have shown those lovely lines and shapes.

 

Whereas the Class 68 will always be ugly!

 

 

 

It's interesting how beauty and artistry is perceived by different people.

 

I don't see the class 68 as ugly. IMO it's functional and purposeful. And for me the Wainwright looks rather flimsy, fussy and fanciful rather than attractive. But then you can't please all the people, all the time. 

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16 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

It's interesting how beauty and artistry is perceived by different people.

 

I don't see the class 68 as ugly. IMO it's functional and purposeful. And for me the Wainwright looks rather flimsy, fussy and fanciful rather than attractive. But then you can't please all the people, all the time. 

 

If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks.

 

Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!

 

Those old 4-4-0 types were the hard workers of their day, fully capable of working the top link expresses of the time. They managed to be functional, purposeful and beautiful all at the same time.

 

There is no comparison in the looks department. Artistry will always win over functionality.

 

I am not entirely rooted in the distant past. I thought the Westerns looked fantastic and I loved the way the Deltics looked. Even the HSTs and 91s have or had a bit of style. The 68s have none!

 

 

Edited by t-b-g
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35 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Put a Belpaire firebox on the Wainwright D 

 

 

Well, Richard Maunsell and James Clayton did just that but surprise, surprise, it came out looking just like a Derby 2...

 

8 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks.

 

 

Yes, wasn't that what I said about the Deeley Compounds?

Edited by Compound2632

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23 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks.

 

Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!

 

Those old 4-4-0 types were the hard workers of their day, fully capable of working the top link expresses of the time. They managed to be functional, purposeful and beautiful all at the same time.

 

There is no comparison in the looks department. Artistry will always win over functionality.

 

I am not entirely rooted in the distant past. I thought the Westerns looked fantastic and I loved the way the Deltics looked. Even the HSTs and 91s have or had a bit of style. The 68s have none!

 

 

 

For me functional and purposeful is exciting. And for me the class 68 has more style than the Wainwright which I don't find elegant. With artistry and style being a very personal and emotive thing I don't think it's a mater of one locos aesthetic design winning out. So there is comparison in the looks department.

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I think it looks like a pig

 

 

 

Emma

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1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

For me functional and purposeful is exciting. And for me the class 68 has more style than the Wainwright which I don't find elegant. With artistry and style being a very personal and emotive thing I don't think it's a mater of one locos aesthetic design winning out. So there is comparison in the looks department.

 

Likewise I am far from convinced that it is a case of either/or. We all have our preferences. Personally I think the class 68 has merit .... though on the other hand I think one could argue there is a consensus beyond the bounds of this thread that the Wainwright is indeed elegant (whether it is to your taste or not). I have a particular liking for the style and elegance of  Johnson's slim boilered locos (as a set from 0-6-0  tanks through to the express singles) ...  which I think are very elegant and well conceived as pieces of aesthetic design enhanced by a wonderful and harmonised colour and lining scheme (not so fond of the class 68 on the livery front). However that doesn't preclude me seeing the merit of the more powerful stance and lines of the later compound. Ditto for Gresley's masterpieces or indeed a King or Castle class. Nor does it preclude me having a soft spot for the Deltics and indeed the 125s. It gets more difficult where the contemporary scene is concerned as  time and a retrospective eye can be cruel (as indeed it was to a fair number of steam designs if we are talking about pure aesthetics.

 

image.png.94fa613806149b8152ece845ab93085e.png

 

RFBMCT24796 MR No 1259.jpg

 

 

RFBMCT25097 MR No1938.jpg

 

RFBMCT24710 MR No 1424.jpg

 

899-150.jpg

Edited by Lecorbusier
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1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks.

 

Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!

 

Those old 4-4-0 types were the hard workers of their day, fully capable of working the top link expresses of the time. They managed to be functional, purposeful and beautiful all at the same time.

 

There is no comparison in the looks department. Artistry will always win over functionality.

 

I am not entirely rooted in the distant past. I thought the Westerns looked fantastic and I loved the way the Deltics looked. Even the HSTs and 91s have or had a bit of style. The 68s have none!

 

 

I quite like the look of the 68, but they look more at home dragging nuclear flasks around IMHO, but your description did strike a chord where the TPE driving trailer is concerned.:jester:

 

As for purposeful, though, I tend to prefer Mr Urie's revisions of Mr Drummond's 4-4-0s to the originals. If you want really ugly, look to the latter's 4-6-0s, before or after superheating was added.... They make a Q1 look pretty.

 

D Class? Beautiful or just a heavily decorated piece of Victoriana? The hardware is a little too delicate looking for my personal taste and the livery is far too prissy for anything that had to work hard for a living.

 

For functional elegance, a shiny black, simply lined LNWR George the Fifth or Prince of Wales would be much more to my liking. A livery later applied to the D Class by BR, of course, but they did some rather peculiar things with the lining IMHO.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

If the most exciting description that can be summoned up is functional and purposeful, that is damning with faint praise when it come to how something looks.

 

Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!

 

Those old 4-4-0 types were the hard workers of their day, fully capable of working the top link expresses of the time. They managed to be functional, purposeful and beautiful all at the same time.

 

There is no comparison in the looks department. Artistry will always win over functionality.

 

I am not entirely rooted in the distant past. I thought the Westerns looked fantastic and I loved the way the Deltics looked. Even the HSTs and 91s have or had a bit of style. The 68s have none!

 

 

'Has anybody ever described a Class 68 as "elegant"? That front nose shape looks like a warthog that has run into a wall too fast!'

 

I'm inclined to agree, Tony,

 

Mind you, as someone else has observed, the DVT is worse....................

 

1715246034_6802604.jpg.77510748514f7149f584af13bf56610b.jpg

 

Different times, different trainspotters!

 

1162694856_91DVT02.jpg.dfcfa954e0fd4950d4575962d5afe8f1.jpg

 

I think the Mk.4 DVTs have a more-purposeful look (apologies for the 'arty-farty' shot). 

 

Mind you, for those who like Class 68s, York's a good place to see them. Along with the one already shown, there were three more present in half an hour.

 

1542293284_6820.jpg.ff388d41971c567c94cdd6e366873cdc.jpg

 

1310289321_6821.jpg.e5d11ead73ada0a972fc96d8307ffc08.jpg

 

1155123503_6824.jpg.528b65e7130fd42eb1816b35b878840c.jpg

 

There was a fair bit of variety during the hour I spent at York Station waiting for my train home.

 

883276713_HSTatYork.jpg.3c4bc9b0466e52ae9aa48dc0d3358a16.jpg

 

An HST; not long for the ECML now.

 

1771941742_Class60atYork01.jpg.0735067f040c2c45ae935240c4e8bea3.jpg

 

And a Class 60. This was something I very rarely saw at York Station during my 'spotting days there (obviously not a Class 60 diesel) - a freight going through the main part. They used to use the avoiding lines, and were often missed! 

 

Looking at these images above, nostalgia prevents me from being objective, I suppose. Especially when York Station used to see the likes of these...........................!

 

1093167076_60018York1951.jpg.b4df892e81fe47595ec6e52e94a80490.jpg

 

1131239045_60112York1951.jpg.e97ea2fa81b389d076185ec51b25604a.jpg

 

Ah, a long time ago (when there was a Labour Government!). 

 

With all the recent comments about aesthetics, it matters not how well-designed or how well-applied a livery is. Once the moronic vandals have a go, it's just depressing. 

 

graffiti.jpg.c4d6ce47c80a75212dc3cc0d68b71a7d.jpg

 

What a blight on our whole environment this sort of thing is. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Never mind the aesthetics - it's a proper train, with a loco and coaches. Be thankful for that.

That it might be, John,

 

But it's not what has gone before............................!

 

127662305_55019Bytham230405.jpg.acf9bcb8af58a443b378ca582a4129d8.jpg

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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I quite like the 68s. Interesting shapes, no doubt calculated by computer.

 

Still not a patch on Gresley's pacifics and other creations though.

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York - I remember a non stop Deltic hauled express passing through on the now long gone centre roads !! Around 1970(ish). Certainly aroused all those present on theplatforms, enthusiasts or not !!

 

Regarding aesthetics of steam locos I recommend the excellent book, J.G.Robinson - A Lifetime's Work by David Jackson. More or less a biography outlining the very interesting career and achievements of this great engineer, and his involvement / friendship / influence by S W Johnson of the Midland Railway. One of my favourite books.

 

Robinson was known to state that the Chimney was one of the most important features of any locomotive, and he designed some lovely locos for the Great Central railway.

 

A man from another age - I wonder what he would have thought of the noisy 68's with their silly names !!!!

 

Brit15

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Looking at the GC4-4-0 at the top of the previous page, this is an example of where 3D printing can produce a shape that conventional machining cannot.   I wonder how long it will be before the cost of metal printing drops to the point when limited runs of metal bodied locos and other rolling stock become feasible.    I know 'plastic' printing is available today but metal does have a certain presence that is very difficult to achieve with  plastic but more importantly a metal bodied loco should be able to pull 13/14 kit built coaches.

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