Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Tony

 

 

Not generalising, simply a very sad fact !!

Late A3's were good for a simple reason, the Diesels that were supposed to replace them were so poor . BR had to throw money at them e.g the Double Chimney being fitted so late in their life. Otherwise there wouldnt have been hardly anything running on BR. A fitting memorial to Gresley at the end .

 

The photo of the A3 is either ex works after a overhaul, or for a special occasion , no Loco in BR days would look like that, after a few days of normal working ,just look at the condtion of the Locos and the Building behind the A3. If it is in normal use then well done to the cleaners.

 

BR was not exactly healthy in the late 1950's (if it was ever very well at anytime in its history) the Goverment gave  a certain Mr Beeching the job of killing it off with the help of a certain Mr Marples simply due to the huge yearly losses.

 

Litltle Bytham actually sums up BR , devasted within a few years of the 1950's scene.

 

'The photo of the A3 is either ex works after a overhaul, or for a special occasion , no Loco in BR days would look like that'

 

Though I accept the A3 in the earlier picture was just ex-works, I make no apologies for challenging the last part of your statement, Mick.

 

I've been checking works' dates against these pictures, and in every one it's at least three months since the locos were shopped. Since A3s with German blinkers (all post-'60, remember) have been mentioned, how about the condition of these two below?

 

 

Just six months before 60103 was withdrawn!

 

 

Evidence of weeping from the washout plug, but still clean.

 

 

Shortly before 60110 received her German blinkers.

 

 

And not long before 60055 received the little (and useless) 'fin' deflectors. She never got German blinkers.

 

In none of these shots is the loco just ex-works. 

 

Granted, I can find several pictures of A3s (with single chimneys as well) which are very dirty, but I still think you're generalising too much.

 

I think it would be generalising on my part to claim that, before the War, all LNER Pacifics were as clean as these. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

'Steam was in its dying agonies by the late 1950's , not helped by GWR Green which was always covered in muck anyway !!. and again lack of money.'

 

Which just goes to show it's not a good idea to generalise Mick..............

 

 

And this is in the '60s! 

 

'From 1920 ish  to 1939 you had a  glorious liveries and the era of  Gresley and others enginners, innovation etc was still in the accendance where Steam was concerned. For the  LNER,  The  Silver Jubillee, Coronation and A4's were just around the corner plus many other highlights.'

 

I cannot deny, nor would want to, that the period you mention was a glorious one; the halcyon period for Britain's steam railways. 

 

However, the A3s were in their ascendancy (as a class) when they were all in the condition seen above (though not all got the German blinkers). Ironic, isn't it, that when they were at their best they were near the end of their lives? 

 

One can eulogise all one wishes about the 'glorious '30s' on the LNER, but the A3s' running in the late '50s/early-60s was far better than anything they achieved in apple green. Return trips to Newcastle in a day? Then back again the next day, and so on! Engine changing (so frequent in the '30s and up to the late-'50s) became almost a thing of the past as these fantastic veterans ran return diesel diagrams with ease - which the diesels couldn't manage! It required the arrival of the Deltics to give timings which no steam loco could match. 

 

The Gresley A1s and A3s were very attractive in apple green, but it was in BR green that they reached their full potential! And, that's how I remember them, and model them. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

 

 

I have never let prototype coal consumption, efficiency or high mileage figures govern what I model.

 

For our purposes, such factors are totally irrelevant. If we did decide what we model on such things, we would all be building electrified lines with modern trains on them or HSTs.

 

So I prefer to model our railways when they were at their best appearance wise, rather than their most efficient. When companies offered competing services and one of the factors in persuading passengers to use, say, the Midland rather than the GCR to go from London to Manchester was to make the trains more attractive and comfortable than those of the opposition. Those fancy liveries were not just for the fun of it. They played an important marketing function too.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Not generalising, simply a very sad fact !!

 

 

A chronic case of rose-tinted spectacles when referring to LNER days, I'd say !

 

OK, BR didn't have the army of semi-slave workers to burnish its locos and rolling stock that the pre-nat. companies enjoyed, but BR developed some superb steam locos - both of its own design and by impovement of inherited motive power.

 

There is plenty of photographic evidence around of depressingly rundown locos during LNER days, and the conditions its enginemen endured were, frankly, deplorable.

 

The pre-war LNER was certainly no glorious zenith - it was merely the result of cheap labour operating the technology of the day.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 14, 2019 by cctransuk

[APOLLO]

I find it interesting that we remember the past sometimes differently than it actually was. No doubt there were superbly clean locos and trains on the ECML, and probably on the WCML also. Time erases some memory

 

I've just this evening stumbled across this superb photo site via Martin Zero on youtube (another interesting site !!) - and it's something both completely different and VERY close to home for me. 

 

https://www.timepix.uk/ 

 

Perhaps to explain, go to the page below first, scroll down a bit and read about the post war survey of Manchester & surrounding towns. Every photo is a photo recording the exact location of an Ordnance Survey revision point used subsequently when performing map revision, but its the general views of life etc, all taken around 1950 which is of interest. Lots of railway content in these albums also. Most photos were used and destroyed - these survived.

 

The SD number is the OS map no, with six fig grid reference below. I guess the top number is a record number.

 

https://www.timepix.uk/PAGES/Photo-map-navigation-pages/n-x5Mxnr/Greater-Manchester-Revision-Point-photographs

 

The particular album below is of 876 photos taken in the area of my birth, south Wigan & Ince. The photo below shows the house I was born in (approx 2 years before I was born !!), the bay windowed house just in view on the left.

 

https://www.timepix.uk/Collection-galleries/OS-Revision-Points-in-Greater-Manchester/1940s-1950s-Wigan/Wigan-central-and-Ince-in-Makerfield/i-kN8pfJ2

 

 

The elusive Westwood Park signal box & sidings, halfway along the L&Y Pemberton loop line, which I could see from my parents bedroom window above. just a small stretch of the line half a mile away, through the gaps in the houses opposite. I've been looking for a photo of this box for years. Banking locos (4F 0-6-0's) were added at the rear of westbound Liverpool bound coal trains here - I spent many hours watching those.

 

View west, I lived just behind "the coolies" to the left - Westwood power station, built just before I was born.

 

 

View east from the canal bank - Leeds & Liverpool Leigh Branch. Springs Branch is just out of view centre right.

 

 

View east from the box, towards Hindley.

 

 

There are Lots of photos of little streets, buildings, snotty nosed curious kids with clogs and various assorted railway scenes, a lot of which I remember as a youth - all gone now - I never ever thought I would see again. A big, big thanks to those at Manchester Libraries who have put these on the web. It's like going home !!

 

Lots and lots of close up detail for the 50's modeler also. And no - I never had a pair of clogs !!

 

Brit15

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

With those tricky-to-make, continuous handrails, a few illustrations of locos I've made with them. A fiddle to say the least.........................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've done a few of these over the years for GW locos, which are arguably a little easier as the curve follows the smokebox diameter more closely, so you can use it as a guide, and the little jiggle between it and the horizontal part of the handrail alongside the boiler has sharper and more defined corners which can be done with a pair of long nose pliers.  I do them by sight, and usually take a few attempts before I am happy with the results.  The ones on the Sandringhams seem to be a bit more subtly complex, or perhaps complexly subtle, in shape.

Edited December 14, 2019 by The Johnster

[Barry Ten]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

I'm not sure it sits so well on a King, though; seen on Pete Waterman's magnificent O Gauge layout. 

 

 

 

 

I made a point of painting this one in Express Blue because I liked the livery so much...

 

It was initially painted about 12 years ago but I've now added a top coat of gloss which I think helps to deepen

the hue and bring the loco's curves to life. The model is a detailed Lima body on a Comet chassis.

 

Al

[t-b-g]

Those handrails do really add a great deal to the look of the "face" of a loco.

 

Once again, it is something that many modellers, including myself, struggle with.

 

My beloved GCR pattern had a curve which followed the smokebox most of the way round and ran parallel with the edge of the smokebox and the smokebox door with the curve centred on the middle of the smokebox door. When it neared the edges, it curved the other way towards the edge of the smokebox and the change from the front to the side was a much bigger radius than appears on many models.

 

A quick look at photos of the preserved O4 will illustrate what I mean better than any words I can use to describe them!

[micklner]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

A chronic case of rose-tinted spectacles when referring to LNER days, I'd say !

 

OK, BR didn't have the army of semi-slave workers to burnish its locos and rolling stock that the pre-nat. companies enjoyed, but BR developed some superb steam locos - both of its own design and by impovement of inherited motive power.

 

There is plenty of photographic evidence around of depressingly rundown locos during LNER days, and the conditions its enginemen endured were, frankly, deplorable.

 

The pre-war LNER was certainly no glorious zenith - it was merely the result of cheap labour operating the technology of the day.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Where did I say LNER days were wonderful or their Locos or much of anything else were always clean ??. Steam Locomotives ,by their very nature are dirty smelly machines, I dont think many people think otherwise.

 

The LNER were the poorest of the Big Four and were forced to continue using  knackered pre grouping stock as there was no money to replace the mundane everyday rolling stock . The 1920's and early 1930's were dreadful times for all due to the depression.

 

What they were good at was public relations and hence the excellent publicity for the prestige mainline Locos and Coach stock . As a result that is what people remember most. The photographs of the time probably dont tell the full story, and we will never know now. Film was expensive at the time, and how many people would take pictures of everyday stock? most would have wanted pictures of Mallard et al .

[APOLLO]

Well the LNER in Wigan was mucky (also known as the Late & Never Early Railway).

 

Photos from above mentioned site - Lower Ince LNER shed, 1950 just before it closed & locos transferred to Springs Branch

 

 

Shed has seen better days.

 

 

Photos of this shed are rare.

 

It wasn't much cleaner up the road at Springs Branch either.

 

Brit15

[The Fatadder]

Thanks for the comments on hand rails, had another go on the 2251 tonight which went a little better than the 73xx .   I am using .45 nickel silver wire, should I be using Brass?

 

I would have soldered the 2251 handrail in place, but of course the final short handrail knob pinged off across the room and I haven’t any more!   Fortunately some are enroute from Gibson. Will still be having another look in the morning though...

 

much more fun than just renumbering a Bachmann one...

Edited December 15, 2019 by The Fatadder

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Our American cousins made colour / liveries & aesthetics into an art form with many trains back in the Streamliner days post WW2

 

Not many trains more beautiful than this (train mind you, not just locomotives). Why they even wrote a song about it !! Brings a tear to the eye ----

 

 

Although I reckon Johnny Cash's version was just a tad better !!

 

Brit15

 

"And the sons of Pullman Porters
And the sons of engineers
Ride their fathers' magic carpet made of steel"

 

always brings a lump to my throat.

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, micklner said:

 Film was expensive at the time, and how many people would take pictures of everyday stock? most would have wanted pictures of Mallard et al .

 

Even today, how much of our digital photography will survive 50 years let alone 100?

 

Consider how many hosting sites have either gone, or seriously cut what was hosted (Flickr).

 

Other sites than remain tend to insist on pictures being more "artistic" than simply recording everyday stuff.

 

Not to mention how many people lose their personal collections of digital items when a drive crashes, or the computer stops working.

 

The abundance of "cheap" digital is an illusion of the moment, and will suffer much of the same problems of film photography of the past in terms of acting as a historical record.

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Even today, how much of our digital photography will survive 50 years let alone 100?

 

Consider how many hosting sites have either gone, or seriously cut what was hosted (Flickr).

 

Other sites than remain tend to insist on pictures being more "artistic" than simply recording everyday stuff.

 

Not to mention how many people lose their personal collections of digital items when a drive crashes, or the computer stops working.

 

The abundance of "cheap" digital is an illusion of the moment, and will suffer much of the same problems of film photography of the past in terms of acting as a historical record.

One cannot be certain of the enduring safety of material kept on computers or drives under ones own control, so I've always considered trusting it to those of others, whether hosting sites or "The Cloud" to be rather naïve.

 

I back-up all my digital photos to USB sticks and SDXC cards kept apart from those used in my cameras as insurance against the hazards listed above. I also make copies of everything before application of any editing - so I'm able to revisit them as software, and my ability to use it, evolves.

 

No doubt, in the fullness of time, these storage methods will be revealed to have vulnerabilities of their own, or the formats might become obsolete (at least for general consumer usage) but at least I'm trying! 

 

John

Edited December 15, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Those handrails do really add a great deal to the look of the "face" of a loco.

 

Once again, it is something that many modellers, including myself, struggle with.

 

My beloved GCR pattern had a curve which followed the smokebox most of the way round and ran parallel with the edge of the smokebox and the smokebox door with the curve centred on the middle of the smokebox door. When it neared the edges, it curved the other way towards the edge of the smokebox and the change from the front to the side was a much bigger radius than appears on many models.

 

A quick look at photos of the preserved O4 will illustrate what I mean better than any words I can use to describe them!

I don't know whether I've got mine right on the ex-GC locos I've built, Tony,

 

Particularly on the old K's O4 one, but it is 45 years old!

 

Picking up on an earlier point of yours......'I have never let prototype coal consumption, efficiency or high mileage figures govern what I model.

 

For our purposes, such factors are totally irrelevant. If we did decide what we model on such things, we would all be building electrified lines with modern trains on them or HSTs.

 

So I prefer to model our railways when they were at their best appearance wise, rather than their most efficient. When companies offered competing services and one of the factors in persuading passengers to use, say, the Midland rather than the GCR to go from London to Manchester was to make the trains more attractive and comfortable than those of the opposition. Those fancy liveries were not just for the fun of it. They played an important marketing function too.'.............. I couldn't agree more. 

 

However, my main 'argument' for citing the the A3s being at their very best at the end of their lives was in response to a generalisation that all BR green locos were filthy. They were not, and, anyway, 'handsome is as handsome does'. 

 

And, carrying on showing that not all BR green locos were covered in muck..................

 

 

Obviously, this is the occasion of 60023's last overhaul and repaint at the Plant in January 1963. Most unlike a typical Gateshead-allocated loco, which were usually heroically-filthy. But this loco is not the most interesting one on display here (for the purposes of my point). Look behind, and there's WALTER K WIGHAM. Pretty clean as well, might one observe? Yes, but it's actually withdrawn and awaiting scrapping! 

 

 

And, on odd occasions, 52A might just have a go at cleaning its locos. LEMBERG is 'weathered' but not totally covered in muck, and she's been out of shops a while. 

 

 

Speaking of being out of shops for a while, here's SILVER LINK just a couple of months BEFORE her final overhaul (in April 1961), not a couple of months AFTER.

 

As I said to another correspondent, it's wrong to generalise; even if many BR green locos were dirty, many were not. 

 

Which brings me on nicely to one of your beloved 'Directors'...........................

 

 

Though nowhere near as resplendent as she (he?) was in full GC finery (or even apple green?), PRINCE OF WALES still looks very handsome in lined BR black, at Darnall in 1958. Just as I first saw her earlier, at Chester on the CLC. 

 

This is where your motivation for making models differs fundamentally from mine, Tony. You create things (very well) from a time long before your living memory, even an idealised time might I suggest? My models reflect my personal memories..................

 

 

Like this, built from an old BEC kit (which Geoff Haynes painted beautifully). Have I got the continuous handrail correct? The tender leans a bit!

 

I asked Geoff to paint 62662 as in the prototype picture - quite clean............

 

 

However, most of the other 'Directors' I saw at the same time looked like this. Dusty and rusty, having probably been in store for the winter(s). I just detailed/renumbered/renamed/weathered this Bachmann example.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

[polybear]

3 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Even today, how much of our digital photography will survive 50 years let alone 100?

 

Consider how many hosting sites have either gone, or seriously cut what was hosted (Flickr).

 

Other sites than remain tend to insist on pictures being more "artistic" than simply recording everyday stuff.

 

Not to mention how many people lose their personal collections of digital items when a drive crashes, or the computer stops working.

 

 

Or the owner passes away, and relatives/friends can't access the pc due to not knowing the password....

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, Clem said:

I bought the RM today - first one I've bought for some time - for your article on LB. It's a very good article with well laid out illustrations, an interesting back story of how it came together and interesting comment (even if a little well worn in this thread :-)  ) . I liked the way you named and credited your team of friends and helpers with their respective specialisms. 

 

I was also struck by the fact that the Railway Modeller has improved much (in my view) since I last bought one and certainly this issue contains a variety of interesting articles. Plaudits to all!

Good morning Clem,

 

Picking up on your very kind comment once more, perhaps I should have listed a few more imperatives I insist upon in my RM piece. Including................

 

Perfect-running (impossible, I know), no derailments, no stuttering locos, carriages as close-coupled as possible, pulling off the headstocks, not the bogies (which means no horrid tension-locks), concertina connectors between gangwayed vehicles, all locos crewed, all cabs glazed, all....................................... It would have needed more pages!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

4 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Or the owner passes away, and relatives/friends can't access the pc due to not knowing the password....

 

Most windows passwords are very easy to bypass (simply take the hard drive out of the computer and add it to another, then "take ownership" of the drive.

 

However, increasingly windows PCs are being "bitlockered" (encrypted) for which you DO need the unlock password or recovery key.

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Even today, how much of our digital photography will survive 50 years let alone 100?

 

Consider how many hosting sites have either gone, or seriously cut what was hosted (Flickr).

 

Other sites than remain tend to insist on pictures being more "artistic" than simply recording everyday stuff.

 

Not to mention how many people lose their personal collections of digital items when a drive crashes, or the computer stops working.

 

The abundance of "cheap" digital is an illusion of the moment, and will suffer much of the same problems of film photography of the past in terms of acting as a historical record.

The longevity of digital imagery is of some concern.

 

Right now, an old computer which has hundreds of my pictures on it seems reluctant to 'work' I'm told the data can be 'retrieved', but we'll see. Fortunately, much is backed-up on discs. 

 

I copy all my pictures on to a separate hard drive (I need another one!) and on to CDs, but will they last as long as film? I can go to my slide collection of prototype images (several of which has been published) and just look it them. They're all stored in a dry place, in slide boxes, and none has deteriorated. When I first started using Fuji slide film I was told it had a 40 year guarantee of not deteriorating (if kept properly). That guaranteed period is fast-approaching, and the trannies are still perfect.

 

In 40 years' time, will the equipment to read photos on discs or ancient hard drives still be available? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micklner]

Walter K Whigam on the other had might be covered oil and muck and is simply wet from rain or dew ?. Would it be unusual for the namplates and full motion to be still on the Loco if it was being scrapped?   

 

The earlier colour photos posted by Tony look slightly  one in particular of 60110 everything is so perfect. Not a speck of dust on the Front Buffer, Motion ,Driving wheels and Tender frames.Buildings brickwork perfect, even the wagons in a siding behind look brand new a Grey one is immaculate plus others further down the line, including the vivid colour of the grass (better colour than my lawn)  at the front . It all looks like it has been just been built/painted. To my eye it just seems "unusually perrfect". It is a very simple procedure on any photo using software to crop, change colour, erase etc.

Again who knows ?? .

 

 

Anyway this is a photo from 1929 A2 City of Durham looking good as does the trackside .

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by micklner
more observation info of the 60110 photo.

[woodenhead]

46 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

In 40 years' time, will the equipment to read photos on discs or ancient hard drives still be available? 

 

My latest computuer has no disc drive and a quarter of it's storage media is solid state.

 

The days of spinny disks whether removable or built in are numbered, we will soon be beholden to behemoths for our back up and if there was a worlwide catastrophe I wonder how much of recent history would simply disappear in a flash as it had little or no paper based evidence.

 

Our ancestors used to use walls for their hobby pics be it bison, bears, lions, sacrifice and probably the odd family drawing - amazing how many of these turn up, but finding a pristine book from 20 BC in the second hand sellers is impossible.

[polybear]

57 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

The longevity of digital imagery is of some concern.

 

Right now, an old computer which has hundreds of my pictures on it seems reluctant to 'work' I'm told the data can be 'retrieved', but we'll see. Fortunately, much is backed-up on discs. 

 

I copy all my pictures on to a separate hard drive (I need another one!) and on to CDs, but will they last as long as film? I can go to my slide collection of prototype images (several of which has been published) and just look it them. They're all stored in a dry place, in slide boxes, and none has deteriorated. When I first started using Fuji slide film I was told it had a 40 year guarantee of not deteriorating (if kept properly). That guaranteed period is fast-approaching, and the trannies are still perfect.

 

In 40 years' time, will the equipment to read photos on discs or ancient hard drives still be available? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Beware being too reliant on just using CD's and DVD's - especially RW apparently:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2008/may/08/howlongshouldadvdlast

[Northmoor]

23 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

My latest computer has no disc drive and a quarter of it's storage media is solid state.

 

The days of spinny disks whether removable or built in are numbered, we will soon be beholden to behemoths for our back up and if there was a worlwide catastrophe I wonder how much of recent history would simply disappear in a flash as it had little or no paper based evidence.

 

Our ancestors used to use walls for their hobby pics be it bison, bears, lions, sacrifice and probably the odd family drawing - amazing how many of these turn up, but finding a pristine book from 20 BC in the second hand sellers is impossible.

I tend to agree about being "beholden to behemoths" but not just in storage of history, but economically.  I wonder if we are sleepwalking into an era of our lives' expenditure being dominated by perhaps half a dozen corporations.  But without drifting off-topic:

 

I am more optimistic about preservation of images though.  Yes some will get lost but we probably overlook how much film-based imagery is already lost.  I know so many people who when receiving their family snaps back, simply threw the negatives away.  Millions more images will have been lost to fire. flood, poor storage (slides especially) and the uninterested/unknowing family clearing a house after the death of a relative.   Perhaps it is upon us all to ensure that our images are backed up to two "sets of discs", one accessible to the family and the other with a trusted enthusiast friend.  The family disc would have that person's details ("to be notified in the event of my death" etc.).  Alternatively, we get it documented in all our wills that the images are to be passed or sold to one of the railway image libraries.  The latter might get the attention of the worst money-grabbing relatives, knowing they can make a few hundred quid from what they thought was junk, but at least the history is preserved.

[Anglian]

If there is a concern about losing digitally captured images perhaps it would be worth having prints made, having first checked the expected lifespan. Invest in some acid-free archival boxes and store them for posterity.

 

(I'm having some slides my father took in the 1950's scanned and thus converted to digital. I'll have prints made and also store them digitally.)

Edited December 15, 2019 by Anglian

[jamie92208]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

"And the sons of Pullman Porters
And the sons of engineers
Ride their fathers' magic carpet made of steel"

 

always brings a lump to my throat.

I chose the Willie Nelson version to be played at a good friends funeral.   The line "This train's got the disappearing  railroad blues" was so appropriate. I couldn't actually attend but apparently there wasn't a dry eye in the house.  It really is a fabulous song.

 

Jamie

[RLBH]

1 hour ago, Anglian said:

If there is a concern about losing digitally captured images perhaps it would be worth having prints made, having first checked the expected lifespan. Invest in some acid-free archival boxes and store them for posterity.

 

(I'm having some slides my father took in the 1950's scanned and thus converted to digital. I'll have prints made and also store them digitally.)

This was the approach recommended by our wedding photographer a few years ago. Not just on the basis of longevity - the resolution of prints is so much higher than that of digital images that it's essentially lossless as a way of backing up the latter.