Wright writes.....

[jrg1]

Going on from the P2s, the rebuilds of the A1, B3, D49, K3 and B17 achieved nothing-I cannot find any rational reason for these exercises at all.

[Niels]

13 hours ago, john new said:

There are several factors here all bundled together:-

 

1) Was the P2's front end design flawed? = Yes.

 

The basic design was flawed.

Gressley could have studied the Prussian P10 design with a Krauss Helmholtz design up front.

Very long  lives and  realising full potential when modified after WW2 in GDR.

Gressley would then have been up against the loading gauge as a Krauss-Helmholtz would have needed  outside cylinders to have been placed two inches further apart.

 

He could have made a three cylinder Webb compound with two small cylinders outside.

He could have made a four cylinder simple like a Claughton

He could have made a five cylinder compound with a central high pressure and four low pressure in two pairs outside.

or have looked at Chapelon 4-8-0 machinery that had 17 inch outside pressure cylinders for more or less same theoretical tractive effort and much more practical power.

The P2 outside cylinders were 19 inch 6 feet 8 inch apart so two 17 inch could be 6 feet ten and still be within loading profile.

 

 

 

Vauclain scheme

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Niels

[2750Papyrus]

I like the shots of the station building taken from the road.  Not a train in sight but reminds me so much of Great Northern stations of my younger days.

[2750Papyrus]

Tony, is there any chance of working Geoff Lund's notes into a publishable form, assuming his family etc would be agreeable?

[grahame]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It was recognised very early on that carrying the power generating plant around with you limited the power available to haul the train. 

 

Indeed, and the inefficient need to have to stop regularly at fuel storage facilities to replenish supplies of coal, water and even diesel fuel. 

 

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 A number of main lines, including sections of the North Eastern and Midland Railways, would have been electrified by the 1920s if the Great War had not intervened. 

 

The history of electric traction reaches pretty far back in to history:

 

1879     The world’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated in Berlin
1881     Britain’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated at Crystal Palace
1881     The world’s first public electric railway opens in Berlin
1883     Britain’s first public electric railway, Volk’s, opens in Brighton
1890    The world’s first electric tube railway, City and South London, opens
1893    The first section of the Liverpool Overhead Railway opens
1894    Isle of Man Manx Electric Railway opens

1903    Electrification of London Brighton rail network act granted
1904     Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway electrifies the Liverpool to Southport lines
1904     NER starts electrification of Tyneside services
1905    District Railway four-rail electrification over LSWR to Richmond and Wimbledon
1909     The South London Line electrified with AC 6700v overhead catenary wires
etc.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by grahame

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, great northern said:

I haven't got to those yet Tony. They were the last few of 56!   Many thanks for the kind words, but your photoshopping of the shot of 60506 beats my effort hands down.

 

Anyway, in the hope of finding a view of LB which won't have been seen before, and in accordance with your request to take something which showed the bit of scenic work I did, I took this.

 

 

That's a great shot, Gilbert, and one I've never tried before - my camera would squash your scenic work, which is where you've placed yours!

 

Don't Ellen Sparkes' (Andy, The Green Howards' daughter) little gardens look lovely?  

 

The M&GNR/MR girder bridge should be finally installed soon. 

 

Regarding your 'Photoshopping', don't do yourself down.  Where one has telegraph poles and other fiddly bits to isolate, it takes time, and I have a full-professional (if old) programme to use. I also have two highly-computer-literate sons who showed me how to use it! Some of the shots you achieve on Peterborough North are exceptionally-realistic. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

42 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Tony, is there any chance of working Geoff Lund's notes into a publishable form, assuming his family etc would be agreeable?

Some have already been published in various forms, but not in their entirety.

 

Pete (Geoff's son, and a good friend of mine) suggested Irwell might be interested, but there wasn't enough material to make a book.

 

I'll pursue it further.....

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[grahame]

Progress has significantly slowed down on my scratch-built Interfrigo wagons project but here's a progress report if anyone is interested. Recently I've only added the handrails and locking bars to all three cast resin bodies I'll be using and given them a coat of gloss white top coat.

 

 

Currently I'm trying to draw up suitable artwork for print at home decals based on pics of an HO model, the real wagons and some files an RMweb member (Andy acg5324) kindly sent me of those he used for his own Interfrigo wagon project. Hopefully I'll have learnt sufficient to also be able to draw up artwork for having the end platforms/steps and large distinctive handbrake levers etched. This project has become quite a 'have to do everything yourself' effort as there is almost nothing commercially available which has slowed things down.

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Indeed, and the inefficient need to have to stop regularly at fuel storage facilities to replenish supplies of coal, water and even diesel fuel. 

 

 

The history of electric traction reaches pretty far back in to history:

 

1879     The world’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated in Berlin
1881     Britain’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated at Crystal Palace
1881     The world’s first public electric railway opens in Berlin
1883     Britain’s first public electric railway, Volk’s, opens in Brighton
1890    The world’s first electric tube railway, City and South London, opens
1893    The first section of the Liverpool Overhead Railway opens
1894    Isle of Man Manx Electric Railway opens

1903    Electrification of London Brighton rail network act granted
1904     Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway electrifies the Liverpool to Southport lines
1904     NER starts electrification of Tyneside services
1905    District Railway four-rail electrification over LSWR to Richmond and Wimbledon
1909     The South London Line electrified with AC 6700v overhead catenary wires
etc.

 

 

 

You've omitted the Midland's Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham electrification, opened in 1908 on the 6.6 kV ac system. If other events had not intervened, this would have been followed up by electrification of the Derby-Manchester route.

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Niels said:

The basic design was flawed.

Gressley could have studied the Prussian P10 design with a Krauss Helmholtz design up front.

Very long  lives and  realising full potential when modified after WW2 in GDR.

Gressley would then have been up against the loading gauge as a Krauss-Helmholtz would have needed  outside cylinders to have been placed two inches further apart.

 

He could have made a three cylinder Webb compound with two small cylinders outside.

He could have made a four cylinder simple like a Claughton

He could have made a five cylinder compound with a central high pressure and four low pressure in two pairs outside.

or have looked at Chapelon 4-8-0 machinery that had 17 inch outside pressure cylinders for more or less same theoretical tractive effort and much more practical power.

The P2 outside cylinders were 19 inch 6 feet 8 inch apart so two 17 inch could be 6 feet ten and still be within loading profile.

 

 

 

Vauclain scheme 80.43 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you suggesting that the Webb compounds and the Claughtons were better than what Gresley was doing? Both were short lived and withdrawn or rebuilt after very short working lives.

 

Gresley was a big fan of Chapelon and did introduce some of his ideas and I recall seeing a proposed design of Chapelon inspired 4-8-0 but that never went ahead. I can't remember why.

 

The Compounds were, I think a "near miss" and were capable of some fine performances. The Claughtons were adequate at best. As with many locos, a change in CME meant a change in loco development and the new man in charge is always far more likely to want to introduce his own ideas than keep on doing what his predecessor did.

 

All Gresley needed on the P2 was a different pony truck (the one on the V2 would have done the trick) and a beefier crank axle.

 

Even without them, they did good work for 10 years and would probably have lasted longer (and maybe got a new crank axle and pony truck) had Thompson not replaced Gresley. We will never know. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by t-b-g

[ecgtheow]

11 hours ago, Andy Reichert said:

One has to wonder what our transportation history would have been like if Micheal Faraday and James Watt had been born in the reverse order. Instead of Steam Punk, the latest Hornby 2020 model announcements would have been for "Electric Victoriana", or something like that.  In fact the likelihood of Steam power or even the "Steam Era" ever being introduced as the underlying force of the Industrial Revolution would have been close to zero.

 

Andy

 

 

Perhaps it would have been like rail transport in Switzerland? The last mainline steam locomotive for the SBB federal railways was built in 1917 (a 2-10-0 which was actually very efficient for its time & lasted until 1968). Thereafter almost all lines were electrified progressively & now Switzerland has the most dense railway network in the world, the greatest distance travelled/ inhabitant (1,528 miles in 2015) & has been ranked first in Europe for intensity of its use, quality of service & safety record. One could go on. All that AND the cost to performance ratios outperform the average for all European countries.

 

The downside of course would be no glorious steam locomotives such as A4, Duchess, Merchant Navy, 9F, etc which the majority of users of this blog including me prefer to remember.

 

William

[grahame]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You've omitted the Midland's Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham electrification, opened in 1908 on the 6.6 kV ac system. If other events had not intervened, this would have been followed up by electrification of the Derby-Manchester route.

 

Along with other pre-WW1 systems like the Grimsby and Immingham Electric Railway and the London and South Western Railway suburban lines out of Waterloo. 

 

There's a surprising amount of electrified systems, both obsolete and in current use, in the UK including light rail (like the London Docklands Railway and Tyne and Wear Metro) and a big recent increase in urban tram systems like Croydon, Manchester, Sheffield, West Midlands, Edinburgh and Nottingham as well as quite large swathes of electrified main and suburban lines. Unfortunately, although many are historic they don't find a lot a favour for being modelled. Oddly, usually when an electric railway is modelled it is of, or based on, a real electrified line/location rather than a made up fictitious line that is very common layout type for steam and diesel traction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Oddly, usually when an electric railway is modelled it is of, or based on, a real electrified line/location rather than a made up fictitious line that is very common layout type for steam and diesel traction.

 

As, for example, one of the finest smaller layouts I've seen on here:

 

Oozes with the atmosphere of my North Birmingham childhood!

[Headstock]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Gilbert,

 

I've tried to recreate your shot of the A2/2 on the Down Flying Scotsman, complete with telegraph pole protruding from the chimney. 

 

 

This is the unaltered TIF shot as the camera took the picture.

 

 

After using layers/masks/cloning/sharpening/clarifying, this is the result; slightly cropped from the original. 

 

In order to speed up the process, I cloned the 'wall' colour around the telegraph pole, so I didn't have to take the lasso tool around every insulator. That said, it still took 40 minutes to reach this state. 

 

What does all this show?

 

You have a very good eye for a picture.

 

Unless the space restrictions are really tight, the big camera can get into the same positions (within physical limits). 

 

The depth of field is superior with the big camera  (F32), and the images are crisper (might that be expected, given the enormous difference in the camera's prices?). 

 

By employing longer exposures, I'm able to use pulses of fill-in flash to pick out detail in shadows. 

 

You achieve some splendid results with your small camera

 

Andy York also gets some splendid images with the same camera. 

 

Here's another replicated shot.

 

 

How did the shots come out where I placed your camera on the platforms? That's where I struggle with my Df. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I would have placed a piece of white card at the back of that pesky telegraph pole before pressing the shutter. Out of interest, have you ever experimented with directional lighting and shadows on LB to recreate different times of day? Is that a thing at all in model railways?

[Lecorbusier]

19 minutes ago, ecgtheow said:

The downside of course would be no glorious steam locomotives such as A4, Duchess, Merchant Navy, 9F, etc which the majority of users of this blog including me prefer to remember.

 

... sooooo .... Moving directly from the glory days of the magnificent slim boilered offerings of the Master - Samuel Waite Johnson - to full electrification .... hmmmm! A scenario that would have prevented such Victorian/Edwardian masterpieces becoming somewhat of a footnote in the overall history of British steam (which in terms of general perception I would argue they are) rather they would be held up as the high point. ..... pipe dreams on alternative realities  - but on balance I think I would rather have had the offerings and brilliance of Churchward/Gresley/Stanier/Bulleid et al.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said:

... sooooo .... Moving directly from the glory days of the magnificent slim boilered offerings of the Master - Samuel Waite Johnson - to full electrification .... hmmmm! A scenario that would have prevented such Victorian/Edwardian masterpieces becoming somewhat of a footnote in the overall history of British steam (which in terms of general perception I would argue they are) rather they would be held up as the high point

 

The minutes of the Midland's Locomotive Committee, held in the National Archives, include a transcript of a stonking letter from Johnson complaining about the Electrical Engineer's attempt to stake out his department's territory as including electric traction. Johnson is very clear that electricity is the way forward but when that day comes, it will be under the auspices of the Locomotive Superintendent, not some jumped-up telegraph clerk (not quite his words but clearly his meaning).

[RLBH]

14 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Horsepower is power - if Wikipedia is correct the Duchesses were capable of in excess of 2500hp whereas a P2 in excess of 2000hp. 

 

Based on cylinder dimensions and boiler pressure, the P2 should be capable of about 7% more power than a Coronation assuming similar steam utilisation. A Coronation should be good for about 2,450hp which is pretty comparable to the 2,511hp achieved by Duchess of Abercorn; a P2 should be good for 2,620hp. I'd suggest that the lack of records of P2s achieving that sort of performance is because they were a small, short-lived fleet with mechanical issues, so nobody ever had a chance to hook up a dynamometer car on one working flat out.

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Indeed, and the inefficient need to have to stop regularly at fuel storage facilities to replenish supplies of coal, water and even diesel fuel. 

 

 

The history of electric traction reaches pretty far back in to history:

 

1879     The world’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated in Berlin
1881     Britain’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated at Crystal Palace
1881     The world’s first public electric railway opens in Berlin
1883     Britain’s first public electric railway, Volk’s, opens in Brighton
1890    The world’s first electric tube railway, City and South London, opens
1893    The first section of the Liverpool Overhead Railway opens
1894    Isle of Man Manx Electric Railway opens

1903    Electrification of London Brighton rail network act granted
1904     Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway electrifies the Liverpool to Southport lines
1904     NER starts electrification of Tyneside services
1905    District Railway four-rail electrification over LSWR to Richmond and Wimbledon
1909     The South London Line electrified with AC 6700v overhead catenary wires
etc.

 

 

To add to Grahame's list

 

1834 Thomas Davenport developed a battery-powered electric motor. He used it to operate a small model car on a short section of track. He not only made the first working electric motor but invented the train set.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

To add to Grahame's list

 

1834 ... invented the train set.

 

I've seen, in the Bowes Museum (but not on my most recent visit), a wooden train made for Edward Pease's son, probably c. 1825. It was very Brio-like both in size and form.

[Clem]

14 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Power is how fast you hit the wall

Torque is how far you go through it

 

Ah but....

 

Torque is cheap but Power is corrupting....

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I would have placed a piece of white card at the back of that pesky telegraph pole before pressing the shutter. Out of interest, have you ever experimented with directional lighting and shadows on LB to recreate different times of day? Is that a thing at all in model railways?

Good morning Andrew,

 

I don't try to replicate lighting at different times of the day.

 

The room Little Bytham is in is very well-lit with 'daylight' tubes, giving an overall illumination without too many deep shadows.

 

I really just want to photograph a model railway, so consistent (and even) light is essential. Not 'sunlight', which produces too deep a shadow in my view, especially underneath steam-outline loco footplates. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[grahame]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've seen, in the Bowes Museum (but not on my most recent visit), a wooden train made for Edward Pease's son, probably c. 1825. It was very Brio-like both in size and form.

 

The clockwork mechanical silver swan in the Bowes Museum is a wonder to behold. That's some impressive modelling and it dates back to the 18th century. Well worth going to see.

 

 

[SD85]

On the subject of 'what if' electric lines, I've been thinking for some time about building a model of the LBSCR system had WW1 never happened, with the overhead network extended down to Brighton and other places. But this would require a lot of scratchbuilding of the electric stock and the catenary systems. 

[PMP]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

. Out of interest, have you ever experimented with directional lighting and shadows on LB to recreate different times of day? Is that a thing at all in model railways?

There’s an excellent example at Peco, Dave and Shirley Rowe made a Spanish diorama that changed from high noon to starlit sky including the sunrise and sunset. With individual grain of wheat bulbs for the stars it’s a fascinating and very effective display.

 

@Clive Mortimore may recall an Essex based modeller that used to take a diorama style layout around the Home Counties with variable lighting, using different color lamps and mixing them for effect. The chap used to do theatre lighting which was the lead in to the displays.

 

Lighting layouts effectively is pretty challenging, and many don’t seem to balance the lighting to their layout, meaning their work isn’t shown to its best. I’ve been doing quite a bit of experimenting, Shelfie1 having a variable ‘blue’ light input which has given an improved look, particularly when at Warley when they had the orange overcast lighting a few years back.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Clem said:

 

Ah but....

 

Torque is cheap but Power is corrupting....

 

What did the Hymek write to the Warship - "I can't Torque, I've lost my Voith".

 

Hat, coat,

 

Brit15