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Tony Wright

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There are several factors here all bundled together:-

 

1) Was the P2's front end design flawed? = Yes.

2) From that comes - was Thomson's decision to modify them correct? Also = yes

3) Was his chosen rebuild design the correct choice to fix the known issue? = No.  Hindsight, and the expertise now applied by the new build teams, suggests better alternatives could have been applied.

4) Separately - Was the short- term decision to take them off the Newcastle troop trains a wise one?

 

Answering (4) will depend on how risk averse or risk accepting you are? Once the fault was known then hauled by a P2 you could potentially get your 1000 troops to Newcastle as requested by the Army but from the traffic management department's viewpoint attempting that goal  risked a locomotive failure that could block a vital artery at best (assuming the loco only failed) and, at worst, lead to serious rolling stock, track and infrastructure damage plus injured troops. The immediate short-term alternative was less troops in Newcastle but conversely no risk of a blocked line/derailment so more troops and freight could continue to be shifted, unhindered, in the succeeding days. I have forgotten whether the risks from short-wheelbase wagons were known about before the 1967 cement train/DP2 crash at Thirsk but surely that is an example of the type of incident the CME/traffic side were worried about if an axle had failed under a P2 on the troop train.

Edited by john new

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2 hours ago, Headstock said:

They were the most powerful passenger steam locos in the country, hauling really heavy trains on difficult routes.
The P2s were not the most 'powerful' passenger steam locomotive in the country, that would be the LMS Duchess.

P2s are 43,462lb whereas Duchesses are 40,000lb

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6 minutes ago, JamieR4489 said:

P2s are 43,462lb whereas Duchesses are 40,000lb

lb/ft - that's torque.

 

Horsepower is power - if Wikipedia is correct the Duchesses were capable of in excess of 2500hp whereas a P2 in excess of 2000hp. 

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21 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

I really need to go back to school. 

No need, you have a personal tutor!

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21 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

lb/ft - that's torque.

 

Horsepower is power - if Wikipedia is correct the Duchesses were capable of in excess of 2500hp whereas a P2 in excess of 2000hp. 

Ah, I made (quite literally) a schoolboy error!

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26 minutes ago, JamieR4489 said:

Ah, I made (quite literally) a schoolboy error!

 

Not totally scientifically accurate, but:

 

Power is how fast you hit the wall

Torque is how far you go through it :D

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9 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Not totally scientifically accurate, but:

 

Power is how fast you hit the wall

Torque is how far you go through it :D

Thanks, that's the half of the Art of Coarse Rally Driving that I'd forgotten.:jester:

 

:offtopic: I know, but to avoid annoying those who've forgotten the half I remembered, the rest is:

 

Understeer is when you go through the wall forwards,

Oversteer is when you go through the wall sideways,

Terminal oversteer is when you go through the wall backwards.

 

John

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22 hours ago, great northern said:

I did take some pictures of trains as well on Monday, and by coincidence the first is of one of those controversial A2/2s.  New England did get to provide the loco for the Down Scotsman for a short while, and here is the Wolf doing the job.

 

 

515695725_11LB11.JPG.28da414bcc05d3419b449330149e1a0a.JPG

 

My ability when on home turf to get poles growing out of chimneys was, as you see, effortlessly achieved at LB too. That particular pole is a photoshopping nightmare too, as it has a shelf full of locos right behind it, and they blend in with it rather well. I nearly got away with it this time, if you don't blow this up too much. That guarantees that you will, of course.

Good evening Gilbert,

 

I've tried to recreate your shot of the A2/2 on the Down Flying Scotsman, complete with telegraph pole protruding from the chimney. 

 

1461176113_Dsc_0384original.jpg.05c6ebe5d7d4433e58597309db43772f.jpg

 

This is the unaltered TIF shot as the camera took the picture.

 

362742208_Gilbertview05.jpg.930cc5df9fc0b57641643efb00e3646f.jpg

 

After using layers/masks/cloning/sharpening/clarifying, this is the result; slightly cropped from the original. 

 

In order to speed up the process, I cloned the 'wall' colour around the telegraph pole, so I didn't have to take the lasso tool around every insulator. That said, it still took 40 minutes to reach this state. 

 

What does all this show?

 

You have a very good eye for a picture.

 

Unless the space restrictions are really tight, the big camera can get into the same positions (within physical limits). 

 

The depth of field is superior with the big camera  (F32), and the images are crisper (might that be expected, given the enormous difference in the camera's prices?). 

 

By employing longer exposures, I'm able to use pulses of fill-in flash to pick out detail in shadows. 

 

You achieve some splendid results with your small camera

 

Andy York also gets some splendid images with the same camera. 

 

Here's another replicated shot.

 

1288673244_Gilbertview04.jpg.3e1b8bbc9d1869f08c6192daa980ebbf.jpg

 

How did the shots come out where I placed your camera on the platforms? That's where I struggle with my Df. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony Wright
typo error
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2 hours ago, john new said:

There are several factors here all bundled together:-

 

1) Was the P2's front end design flawed? = Yes.

2) From that comes - was Thomson's decision to modify them correct? Also = yes

3) Was his chosen rebuild design the correct choice to fix the known issue? = No.  Hindsight, and the expertise now applied by the new build teams, suggests better alternatives could have been applied.

4) Separately - Was the short- term decision to take them off the Newcastle troop trains a wise one?

 

Answering (4) will depend on how risk averse or risk accepting you are? Once the fault was known then hauled by a P2 you could potentially get your 1000 troops to Newcastle as requested by the Army but from the traffic management department's viewpoint attempting that goal  risked a locomotive failure that could block a vital artery at best (assuming the loco only failed) and, at worst, lead to serious rolling stock, track and infrastructure damage plus injured troops. The immediate short-term alternative was less troops in Newcastle but conversely no risk of a blocked line/derailment so more troops and freight could continue to be shifted, unhindered, in the succeeding days. I have forgotten whether the risks from short-wheelbase wagons were known about before the 1967 cement train/DP2 crash at Thirsk but surely that is an example of the type of incident the CME/traffic side were worried about if an axle had failed under a P2 on the troop train.

Interesting, John,

 

'2) From that comes - was Thomson's decision to modify them correct? Also = yes'

 

Had Thompson just 'modified' them, then posterity might have considered him worthy of a knighthood. I think it was Bert Spencer and Teddy Windle who suggested that the pony truck could have been modified and the crank axle made more-substantial, with larger bearings. As it was, it seems they were quietly moved aside (being Gresley men), until Peppercorn took over, that is; when he brought them back after Thompson's retirement!  

 

Which makes me agree with you entirely about 3. 

 

Thanks to all for all the P2 comments.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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I suppose one Gresley loco which Edward Thompson might have been seen to have 'improved', was the O2; where he fitted a B1 boiler. I'm not sure it was better, because both the Gresley and the Thompson boilers were excellent steamers. 

 

Anyway, since I've built an O2/4, I thought I'd crack on with an old Nu-Cast O2/3 I've had lying around in a 'started' state for too long. 

 

1620060555_Nu-CastO2301.jpg.27d802413535f32f60f6b5eadcf01f9c.jpg

 

I bought it off Rob Kinsey after Stoke Summit and Charwelton were sold, and he had no need of it then. He'd made most of the tender. 

 

So, a morning's work saw my getting it to this state. 

 

153887315_Nu-CastO2302.jpg.49bd783bef52ef86982f6b79b1d9ea01.jpg

 

Even without any added-lead, it's more than capable of hauling this fully-laden coal train.

 

877968757_HeljanO2301.jpg.1cd84a12dcdbab74fec82f412a37919b.jpg

 

To be fair, so is Heljan's RTR O2/3. In fact, it beats any Hornby or Bachmann 2-8-0 equivalent in that respect.

 

435662575_HeljanO2302.jpg.07b114d788fc3e355b35aa3108d6dda3.jpg

 

I modified/detailed/renumbered it, added a decent chimney (the original is poor), and Geoff Haynes weathered it. 

 

What's the problem? For one, the valve gear is weak in appearance, and two, I never use it. I didn't 'build it' you see. 

 

No doubt it'll be sold-on.

 

 

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One has to wonder what our transportation history would have been like if Micheal Faraday and James Watt had been born in the reverse order. Instead of Steam Punk, the latest Hornby 2020 model announcements would have been for "Electric Victoriana", or something like that.  In fact the likelihood of Steam power or even the "Steam Era" ever being introduced as the underlying force of the Industrial Revolution would have been close to zero.

 

Andy

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

One has to wonder what our transportation history would have been like if Micheal Faraday and James Watt had been born in the reverse order. Instead of Steam Punk, the latest Hornby 2020 model announcements would have been for "Electric Victoriana", or something like that.  In fact the likelihood of Steam power or even the "Steam Era" ever being introduced as the underlying force of the Industrial Revolution would have been close to zero.

 

Andy

 

 

 

It was recognised very early on that carrying the power generating plant around with you limited the power available to haul the train. I haven't gone looking for the quote but I think even George Stephenson said that electric traction was the answer in the long run. Brunel's atmospheric railway was an attempt to achieve the same end by purely mechanical means. By the later 19th century, many engineers saw the writing on the wall for the steam locomotive. A number of main lines, including sections of the North Eastern and Midland Railways, would have been electrified by the 1920s if the Great War had not intervened. 

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The late Malcolm Crawley was once involved in an incident at Barkston triangle when a Peppercorn A1 slipped into full forward gear with a test train including the dynamometer car. The drawbar horsepower showed just over 3,000 for a short while until the situation was brought under control, thankfully before the loco did a "Blue Peter".

 

Unless you have measured power output in many, many situations with different loads in different situations, being certain as to the power output of any steam loco is not a precise science. You can have the same loco with two different crews and you will get two different results.

 

You could put one on a testing station and measure it exactly but even between members of the same class of locos, there were always good ones and bad ones.

 

I just look forward to seeing what Prince of Wales can do if and when it is really given a chance. I can see records for climbing Shap being re-written before too long.

 

If the P2 had the same crank axle as an A3 and, according to the RCTS book, the P2 had a smaller load applied to the crank axle than the A3, I think that pretty much confirms my suspicion that it was factors other than the design of the crank axle which caused breakages on the P2. Almost certainly extra wear and tear due to the pony truck problem and the very sharply curved route they worked on. A beefed up crank axle would have mitigated the problem.

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1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

You can have the same loco with two different crews and you will get two different results.

Different coal too.

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Interesting reading re. the P2s and their wartime exploits, pre-rebuilding. 
 

Were they ever repainted into NE wartime black, or did they carry LNER green throughout the war / until rebuilding as A2/2s?

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54 minutes ago, OliverBytham said:

Interesting reading re. the P2s and their wartime exploits, pre-rebuilding. 
 

Were they ever repainted into NE wartime black, or did they carry LNER green throughout the war / until rebuilding as A2/2s?

 

According to the P2 project website 2003/4 (at least) got wartime black:

https://www.p2steam.com/category/original-p2s/

Edited by pH
Should read more carefully!

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Going on from the P2s, the rebuilds of the A1, B3, D49, K3 and B17 achieved nothing-I cannot find any rational reason for these exercises at all.

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13 hours ago, john new said:

There are several factors here all bundled together:-

 

1) Was the P2's front end design flawed? = Yes.

 

The basic design was flawed.

Gressley could have studied the Prussian P10 design with a Krauss Helmholtz design up front.

Very long  lives and  realising full potential when modified after WW2 in GDR.

Gressley would then have been up against the loading gauge as a Krauss-Helmholtz would have needed  outside cylinders to have been placed two inches further apart.

 

He could have made a three cylinder Webb compound with two small cylinders outside.

He could have made a four cylinder simple like a Claughton

He could have made a five cylinder compound with a central high pressure and four low pressure in two pairs outside.

or have looked at Chapelon 4-8-0 machinery that had 17 inch outside pressure cylinders for more or less same theoretical tractive effort and much more practical power.

The P2 outside cylinders were 19 inch 6 feet 8 inch apart so two 17 inch could be 6 feet ten and still be within loading profile.

 

 

 

Vauclain scheme

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Niels
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I like the shots of the station building taken from the road.  Not a train in sight but reminds me so much of Great Northern stations of my younger days.

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Tony, is there any chance of working Geoff Lund's notes into a publishable form, assuming his family etc would be agreeable?

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10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It was recognised very early on that carrying the power generating plant around with you limited the power available to haul the train. 

 

Indeed, and the inefficient need to have to stop regularly at fuel storage facilities to replenish supplies of coal, water and even diesel fuel. 

 

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 A number of main lines, including sections of the North Eastern and Midland Railways, would have been electrified by the 1920s if the Great War had not intervened. 

 

The history of electric traction reaches pretty far back in to history:

 

1879     The world’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated in Berlin
1881     Britain’s first electric passenger train is demonstrated at Crystal Palace
1881     The world’s first public electric railway opens in Berlin
1883     Britain’s first public electric railway, Volk’s, opens in Brighton
1890    The world’s first electric tube railway, City and South London, opens
1893    The first section of the Liverpool Overhead Railway opens
1894    Isle of Man Manx Electric Railway opens

1903    Electrification of London Brighton rail network act granted
1904     Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway electrifies the Liverpool to Southport lines
1904     NER starts electrification of Tyneside services
1905    District Railway four-rail electrification over LSWR to Richmond and Wimbledon
1909     The South London Line electrified with AC 6700v overhead catenary wires
etc.

 

 

Edited by grahame
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9 hours ago, great northern said:

I haven't got to those yet Tony. They were the last few of 56!   Many thanks for the kind words, but your photoshopping of the shot of 60506 beats my effort hands down.

 

Anyway, in the hope of finding a view of LB which won't have been seen before, and in accordance with your request to take something which showed the bit of scenic work I did, I took this.

 

 

next.JPG.176b87beff2a06f01df5fb11cc966de8.JPG

That's a great shot, Gilbert, and one I've never tried before - my camera would squash your scenic work, which is where you've placed yours!

 

Don't Ellen Sparkes' (Andy, The Green Howards' daughter) little gardens look lovely?  

 

The M&GNR/MR girder bridge should be finally installed soon. 

 

Regarding your 'Photoshopping', don't do yourself down.  Where one has telegraph poles and other fiddly bits to isolate, it takes time, and I have a full-professional (if old) programme to use. I also have two highly-computer-literate sons who showed me how to use it! Some of the shots you achieve on Peterborough North are exceptionally-realistic. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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42 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Tony, is there any chance of working Geoff Lund's notes into a publishable form, assuming his family etc would be agreeable?

Some have already been published in various forms, but not in their entirety.

 

Pete (Geoff's son, and a good friend of mine) suggested Irwell might be interested, but there wasn't enough material to make a book.

 

I'll pursue it further.....

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Progress has significantly slowed down on my scratch-built Interfrigo wagons project but here's a progress report if anyone is interested. Recently I've only added the handrails and locking bars to all three cast resin bodies I'll be using and given them a coat of gloss white top coat.

 

DSC_9032.JPG.f01ce5df56e4cd144d6c84784ec149f7.JPG

 

Currently I'm trying to draw up suitable artwork for print at home decals based on pics of an HO model, the real wagons and some files an RMweb member (Andy acg5324) kindly sent me of those he used for his own Interfrigo wagon project. Hopefully I'll have learnt sufficient to also be able to draw up artwork for having the end platforms/steps and large distinctive handbrake levers etched. This project has become quite a 'have to do everything yourself' effort as there is almost nothing commercially available which has slowed things down.

 

1320929497_Interfrigodecals.jpg.8bdd496b89c21ea9aa8bf9468a7d339b.jpg

 

 

 

 

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