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Tony Wright

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

No, you wouldn't, but it's not a comparable situation.  Main line coaches in the steam age had much shorter service lives than PO coal wagons, and were much better looked after.  Wooden XPOs built in pre grouping days lasted in service until the 60s, in decreasing numbers, and outnumbered steel 16tonners until about 1955 despite being savagely culled in early BR days.  BR never knew how many of them it owned, just that there were about half a million, at least half of which were probably in unserviceable condition at nationalisation.  Those that were serviceable, were run into the ground, and if found to be beyond saving while loaded 'OJO', one journey only, was chalked up on the side so that the load did not have to be transferred to another wagon.  The bodies were patched and returned to service, sometimes with planks from other wagons and very rarely with new wood, by wagon examiners at yards, ports, and collieries.  As long as the chassis held together and the door catches held, they were kept in service.  

 

BR's response was to set up the Ideal Wagons Committee, which sounds like a talking shop but very effectively transformed the overall condition of freight stock in the decade between 1948 and 58.  Painting was discontinued on all unfitted open wagons including of course XPOs until 1958, and P numbers applied to XPOs.  Some XPOs were painted in the grey unfitted livery, but many were examined and withdrawn very quickly in 1948, ending up in storage until they could be scrapped.

 

It's a sort of 'anything goes' period, and very few of us are competent to model the very complex XPO scene correctly.  We have to rely on the RTR suppliers to get it right for us, and herein is a problem; brightly coloured wagons and vans sell well and the profit motive corrupts correct modelling.  I have several 7 plankers in PO livery so heavily weathered that they cannot be identified, both with and without P numbers, and cannot state that they are correct.  They are, however, part of my interpretation of prototype practice in the 50s, on a 'best guess, trying to get it as right as I can despite lack of hard evidence and my lack of detailed knowledge'. 

 

IMG_0324.jpg.af6047ea7940697fc3cde46e7865eb57.jpg

 

 

This is an extreme example, an abandoned cripple siding lurker, actually off the road.  A C & W inspector from Tondu may well travel up to Cwmdimbath with some old planks and repair it, but for now it sits awaiting it's fate; in any case it can't be moved until the missing drawhook is replaced.  It actually has a P number under the muck and was originally in BR grey livery, but it's difficult to tell.  There's a maroon lined BG in the background, so it must be 1956 at least.  Cutting out the missing planks was fun, and an interior view shows that I've rebated the inner surfaces to show the inside face of the strapping as well. 

 

Too many of my XPO 7 plankers are probably in grey livery, and I will in time repaint them either as unpainted or unidentifiable original livery with P numbers.  At least one will remain in grey livery of course; I don't want to not represent that!

 

 

 

Very effective,

 

Thanks for posting.

 

When I was a boy, my family used to travel between Chester and Sheffield very regularly to visit paternal relatives east of the steel city. Going over Woodhead, it meant we used to travel past Samuel Fox's steelworks in Stocksbridge. The MSW electrified line used to run behind/beyond the works, and there were sidings to the east. At the end of one of these sidings there was an abandoned wooden wagon (I didn't know it was abandoned on first seeing it). Over a period of what must have been four or more years around 1960, each time we passed, the wagon had deteriorated more and more, until it was just a wreck. It never moved and then, one day, it was gone.

 

Strange, how some memories prevail........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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I think that coal train is pretty effective, Tony, maybe the ones you singled out and sparked the debate are not really representative of what goes round the top circuit.

 

The new bridge makes such a difference to the scene, it nestles into place and is so much finer that your earlier temporary structure.

 

Alan

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24 minutes ago, Buhar said:

I think that coal train is pretty effective, Tony, maybe the ones you singled out and sparked the debate are not really representative of what goes round the top circuit.

 

The new bridge makes such a difference to the scene, it nestles into place and is so much finer that your earlier temporary structure.

 

Alan

'maybe the ones you singled out and sparked the debate are not really representative of what goes round the top circuit.'

 

They're not really, Alan,

 

Just a few curiosities I run from time to time.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Stephen,

 

It's good to 'pull legs', and it's all in good fun.

 

I can, however, occasionally take my modelling of the MR/M&GNR bit of LB 'seriously'.

 

1411583664_J6onpick-upfreight.jpg.01db98bf3150f5d7305a0b3a3da869e7.jpg

 

Plate 25 in M&GN in Action by M. D. Beckett and P. R. Hemnell shows a J6 on a pick-up freight at Twenty. The caption says it's a Bourne-Spalding working, but I've assumed it started further west, and came through Little Bytham. The loco's not the same number (though it is from Boston shed) and the vans aren't exactly the same, but, I hope, it captures the flavour....... 

 

Plate 98 in the same book shows a J11 on a coal train heading eastwards at South Lynn in 1953. 

 

539318406_J11oncoals.jpg.28bc942a0920be5cb5072819a1e7c045.jpg

 

Since the coal must have originated further west, and passed through LB, here's my interpretation (complete with some ex-PO wagons). 

 

Also in the same book, in Plate 24, there's a picture of 2P 40454 about to depart from Bourne heading west.

 

162205758_2PonNottingham-KingsLynnthree-set.jpg.7e41db6348c1e05a92b70b0d80dffe70.jpg

 

Since I like to think some of my modelling is evidence-based, here's the same loco (modified Millholme kit) on the Down journey - Nottingham-Kings Lynn.

 

The three-set is Gilbert Barnatt's work - modified/detailed/weathered using Mainline and Hornby stock as a starting point. 

 

Dave Wager's beautiful girder bridge in the background has 'made' Little Bytham. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

 

 

A 2P - now that's what I call a proper engine!

 

Superb photos, especially 64413 on the coal train - the low angle really gives it the atmosphere of a contemporary enthusiast's snap. Nicely distressed XPOs. 

 

What is that curious-looking NPCS vehicle behind 64190?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A 2P - now that's what I call a proper engine!

 

Superb photos, especially 64413 on the coal train - the low angle really gives it the atmosphere of a contemporary enthusiast's snap. Nicely distressed XPOs. 

 

What is that curious-looking NPCS vehicle behind 64190?

Thanks Stephen,

 

You like 2Ps? 

 

2P.jpg.56d2b1b1e1e453390dd6800bd8a9fb86.jpg

 

I have another. It's an old Airfix/Palitoy tender-drive thing, with the tender-drive given away and the whole lot running on Comet frames for both loco and tender. As with the other 2P, it's Nottingham-based (I need to change the shedplate). What this shot does show are the poor proportions of my original (fudged) girder bridge. It did for a time. It also shows how effective Ian Wilson's 'Pacific' front numberplates are.......

 

'What is that curious-looking NPCS vehicle behind 64190?'

 

You mean the second van?

 

It's an LNER 'Milk Van', Dia. 86.

 

1403937663_DSLNERMilkVan.jpg.19df021b49241da62e0f43f1a4be7ce7.jpg

 

I built it from a D&S kit. It's not the actual type shown in the prototype picture previously-mentioned, but it's the first one I came across in the fiddle yard with roof ventilators.....

 

The distressed ex-PO wagons are Rob Davey's work. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony Wright
to clarify a point
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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Whilst the leading wagon is a 1923 RCH standard wagon, the CWS wagon is earlier - probably conforming to the 1907 RCH standard. Note the grease axleboxes. I did read that of the XPO wagons inherited by BR, over half were pre-1923.

 

The back history is that a lot of RCH 1907 mineral wagons were retained in the 1930s as mobile coal stores.  (Smaller houses, less space for coal).  So they were loaded late spring and would sit in a siding until late autumn - couple of hundred miles a year, easy life.  Come WW2, and they were trundling around Great Britain for the next five years.  By 1944 they were knackered and barely able to turn a wheel.   Most RCH 1907 wagons met their Bryant & May soon after the war.

 

The RCH 1923 wagons probably had their modal production in the late 1920s.  Many years ago, I analysed some data published by Don Rowlands and there were actually more RCH 1923 wagons than steel 16 tonners until the late 1950s.  They were probably less productive but at least they didn't rust!

 

Bill

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18 minutes ago, bbishop said:

 

The RCH 1923 wagons probably had their modal production in the late 1920s. 

 

I've supposed - though without hard evidence - that production of RCH 1923 wagons dropped off during the depression; in the first five years of grouping it had been business as usual, with new wagons replacing life-expired wagons (say pre-1907) in a reasonably orderly fashion. It would be interesting to see the actual figures! There was also considerable consolidation in the wagon-building and repairing business, including the establishment of Wagon Repairs Ltd in 1918, formed from the repairs business of several of the largest builders.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Whilst the leading wagon is a 1923 RCH standard wagon, the CWS wagon is earlier - probably conforming to the 1907 RCH standard. Note the grease axleboxes. I did read that of the XPO wagons inherited by BR, over half were pre-1923.

 

When the Annesley Woodford runners were reintroduced after the war, there was a concerted effort to get rid of any mineral wagon with grease axle boxes as quickly as possible. Many years back we interviewed a couple of drivers who related many a horror story of having to stop a runner to shunt out a crippled wagon from the train. It was not unusual to see flames streaming out of one or more axle boxes. These older wagons were totally unsuited to the concept of fast freight. It is noticeable in contemporary photographs from the late forties, that steel mineral wagons of PO, LNER and LMS origin, have more of a presence in the Annesley Woodford runners than slower contemporary coal trains on other mainlines.

 

The 1923 RCH design was certainly outnumbered by earlier types, until the mass scrapings in the early BR period.

Edited by Headstock
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53 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Stephen,

 

You like 2Ps? 

 

2P.jpg.56d2b1b1e1e453390dd6800bd8a9fb86.jpg

 

I have another. It's an old Airfix/Palitoy tender-drive thing, with the tender-drive given away and the whole lot running on Comet frames for both loco and tender. As with the other 2P, it's Nottingham-based (I need to change the shedplate). What this shot does show are the poor proportions of my original (fudged) girder bridge. It did for a time. It also shows how effective Ian Wilson's 'Pacific' front numberplates are.......

 

'What is that curious-looking NPCS vehicle behind 64190?'

 

You mean the second van?

 

It's an LNER 'Milk Van', Dia. 86.

 

1403937663_DSLNERMilkVan.jpg.19df021b49241da62e0f43f1a4be7ce7.jpg

 

I built it from a D&S kit. It's not the actual type shown in the prototype picture previously-mentioned, but it's the first one I came across in the fiddle yard with roof ventilators.....

 

The distressed ex-PO wagons are Rob Davey's work. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

E70679E is a general van. The milk van, though similar in most respects, had a different arrangement of ventilators on the body side.

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8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Tony,

 

E70679E is a general van. The milk van, though similar in most respects, had a different arrangement of ventilators on the body side.

Thanks Andrew,

 

Does that make it a Dia. 87 then? I just built the kit as supplied, obviously not heeding my own advice, and (at least in part) falling into the trap of reading the instructions! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Very effective,

 

Thanks for posting.

 

When I was a boy, my family used to travel between Chester and Sheffield very regularly to visit paternal relatives east of the steel city. Going over Woodhead, it meant we used to travel past Samuel Fox's steelworks in Stocksbridge. The MSW electrified line used to run behind/beyond the works, and there were sidings to the east. At the end of one of these sidings there was an abandoned wooden wagon (I didn't know it was abandoned on first seeing it). Over a period of what must have been four or more years around 1960, each time we passed, the wagon had deteriorated more and more, until it was just a wreck. It never moved and then, one day, it was gone.

 

Strange, how some memories prevail........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Check your memories again Tony, Sam Fox's Stocksbridge works was (and still is) on a branch off the mainline from Deepcar - electrification never went anywhere near it. I'm still trying to puzzle what you saw and where.

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Thought you might like to see this. Email from DJH this morning!

Dave

 

image.png.f30bde7b5b1bd38c472e933f649f11e7.png

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Check your memories again Tony, Sam Fox's Stocksbridge works was (and still is) on a branch off the mainline from Deepcar - electrification never went anywhere near it. I'm still trying to puzzle what you saw and where.

The memory obviously fades!

 

It might have been nearer Sheffield, by one of the other works. Perhaps at Deepcar itself or Outibridge. It was certainly easily-seen from the main road (now no longer the main road, of course).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
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15 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

Thought you might like to see this. Email from DJH this morning!

Dave

 

image.png.f30bde7b5b1bd38c472e933f649f11e7.png

Very interesting Dave,

 

Isolation can have an up-side, though the circumstances bringing it on are not good. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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My word a company rewarding loyalty. Most companies  I have shown loyalty to just make financial offers available for new customers and then wonder why existing customers get shirty and go elsewhere.

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Posted (edited)

With the recent comments regarding the age(s) of railway vehicles, some shots of possible interest.

 

They might well have been seen before, but in a different context......1365628487_arcanestock01.jpg.5df75fc26d360fbba43298fd07dc4942.jpg

 

This shot dates from 1952. I think comments have already been made regarding the first two vehicles, but the fourth looks to be a Dia. 86 GP van. What's next is very interesting - a Howlden six-wheeler? Followed by what must be a near brand-new Mk.1. So, 50-odd years separating the two? 

 

1378947858_arcanestock02.jpg.fa4ce64eeba2cafb35b6803e33543bd6.jpg

 

According to the lamps carried, this is an express - again from 1952. The 'youngest' in this set is a post-War Thompson car, still in teak paint. The Gresleys are pre-1931 all-doors (I think the last car is a Gresley, but I could be wrong), but how old is the first vehicle? And what is it?

 

451375573_arcanestock03.jpg.b1faa1f19d9a5981ee4e7ea90d88346f.jpgA lovely array of wagons are visible in this shot, taken from a train of 50A, in 1951. 

 

One of the wagons appears to have white- or yellow-painted ends. For internal use only? 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony Wright
to clarify a point
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15 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Very interesting Dave,

 

Isolation can have an up-side, though the circumstances bringing it on are not good. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony and All

 

Today I placed an order with Peter's Spares for a pair of the new Bachmann class 24s and was asked, very nicely,  was I panic buying as I was ordering two. The chap then went on to say they have become very busy. 

 

6 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

With the recent comments regarding the age(s) of railway vehicles, some shots of possible interest.

 

They might well have been seen before, but in a different context......1365628487_arcanestock01.jpg.5df75fc26d360fbba43298fd07dc4942.jpg

 

This shot dates from 1962. I think comments have already been made regarding the first two vehicles, but the fourth looks to be a Dia. 86 GP van. What's next is very interesting - a Howlden six-wheeler? Followed by what must be a near brand-new Mk.1. So, 50-odd years separating the two? 

 

1378947858_arcanestock02.jpg.fa4ce64eeba2cafb35b6803e33543bd6.jpg

 

According to the lamps carried, this is an express - again from 1952. The 'youngest' in this set is a post-War Thompson car, still in teak paint. The Gresleys are pre-1931 all-doors, but how old is the first vehicle? And what is it?

The first coach in the first photo looks like a LMS BG converted from a WW1 ambulance train. I was going to say the same for the first coach in the second photo but looking at it the paneling looks GNR or even NER. What ever it is the same type of coach is the second in the first photo.

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The first in the second photo is an ex GN non gangwayed full brake, of the type designated "Milk Train Brake" - there were others with sliding doors rather than the four pairs of hinged doors seen in the picture.  The second in the first picture looks to be of the same type.  I made one once, from Nick Campling's drawings first published in "Model Railways" in the 1970s, and repeated in the "Historic carriage Drawings" book.

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Posted (edited)


 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

With the recent comments regarding the age(s) of railway vehicles, some shots of possible interest.

 

They might well have been seen before, but in a different context......1365628487_arcanestock01.jpg.5df75fc26d360fbba43298fd07dc4942.jpg

 

This shot dates from 1952. I think comments have already been made regarding the first two vehicles, but the fourth looks to be a Dia. 86 GP van. What's next is very interesting - a Howlden six-wheeler? Followed by what must be a near brand-new Mk.1. So, 50-odd years separating the two? 

 

1378947858_arcanestock02.jpg.fa4ce64eeba2cafb35b6803e33543bd6.jpg

 

According to the lamps carried, this is an express - again from 1952. The 'youngest' in this set is a post-War Thompson car, still in teak paint. The Gresleys are pre-1931 all-doors (I think the last car is a Gresley, but I could be wrong), but how old is the first vehicle? And what is it?

 

451375573_arcanestock03.jpg.b1faa1f19d9a5981ee4e7ea90d88346f.jpgA lovely array of wagons are visible in this shot, taken from a train of 50A, in 1951. 

 

One of the wagons appears to have white- or yellow-painted ends. For internal use only? 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions. 

 

 

 

 

 

The first photo, ex LMS BG, ambulance car conversion, ex GN milk brake, ex SR PMV or CCT, ex LNER GV, ex GN Howlden bogie luggage van, MK1 TK, carriage, no2 looks like a compo, three would be a third, leaving one brake?

 

The second photo, a typical ex LNER three set, BCK (2-4) Gresley, TK (7) Thompson, BTK (5) Gresley. The GC section ran identical three sets but favoured the 6 compartment brake third. The van is another ex GN milk brake.

 

Photo three, some nice hoppers and other minerals, they look to be ex LNER 21 ton types and maybe an LMS iron stone hopper.

Edited by Headstock
Clarify a point.
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7 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Check your memories again Tony, Sam Fox's Stocksbridge works was (and still is) on a branch off the mainline from Deepcar - electrification never went anywhere near it. I'm still trying to puzzle what you saw and where.

 

We have an abandoned wagon off the road on the steelworks line on Deepcar. Maybe that is the one Tony is thinking of:wacko:

 

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Posted (edited)

There was a 4 wheeled carriage from the MSLR that was originally a luggage tri-composite built in 1876 that could still be seen attached to passenger trains as a Departmental S & T vehicle in the 1960s. It was used to transport parts between Retford and Peterborough and because some of the parts were delicate, it was run on passenger trains rather than on freight, which may have suffered more rough shunting.

 

https://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/MS&L.htm

 

Which is why it survived to be preserved.

 

I built a model of it for Retford. So an 1870s carriage on a 1950s layout is not impossible.

 

1713879920_STVanPainted.jpg.46e4ecf26fd6ee2702fa848daa17190b.jpg

 

Long surviving vehicles can be an interesting feature on layouts but they should really be presented in the condition that they would be in at the date the layout is set if they are to fit in with the overall scene. Company vehicles with large lettering would be rare by the 1950s and if they appeared at all, it would be old lettering appearing under a poor repaint or they would be in very grotty condition. Clean LMS vehicles with clear white lettering from 20 years ago would be most unlikely.

Edited by t-b-g
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1 hour ago, great central said:

 

We have an abandoned wagon off the road on the steelworks line on Deepcar. Maybe that is the one Tony is thinking of:wacko:

 

It could be,

 

But it's at least 60 years ago!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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48 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

There was a 4 wheeled carriage from the MSLR that was originally a luggage tri-composite built in 1876 that could still be seen attached to passenger trains as a Departmental S & T vehicle in the 1960s. It was used to transport parts between Retford and Peterborough and because some of the parts were delicate, it was run on passenger trains rather than on freight, which may have suffered more rough shunting.

 

https://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/MS&L.htm

 

Which is why it survived to be preserved.

 

I built a model of it for Retford. So an 1870s carriage on a 1950s layout is not impossible.

 

1713879920_STVanPainted.jpg.46e4ecf26fd6ee2702fa848daa17190b.jpg

 

Long surviving vehicles can be an interesting feature on layouts but they should really be presented in the condition that they would be in at the date the layout is set if they are to fit in with the overall scene. Company vehicles with large lettering would be rare by the 1950s and if they appeared at all, it would be old lettering appearing under a poor repaint or they would be in very grotty condition. Clean LMS vehicles with clear white lettering from 20 years ago would be most unlikely.

How was this lovely model lettered, Tony? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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