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Tony Wright

Wright writes.....

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55 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

This BR map gives the wider view of railways in the Liverpool & Manchester area - again sadly a lot have long gone - I notice the Southport - Preston line north of Hesketh Park  is already history !!

 

4245374412_23e44c58b3_b.jpg

 

Brit15

 

That BR era map doesn't bring out the true complexity of the situation, with the multiplicity of pre-Grouping companies, either in propria persona or through their involvement in joint lines. I remember at one time being much confused by the presence of the LNER in Wales! The RCH Junction Diagrams bring out the full complexity for individual areas. Here's central Manchester in all its glory:

 

image.png.5622cf68580448f9051f6889f840bcf1.png

 

[Railway Clearing House / Public domain via Wikipedia Commons.]

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2 hours ago, Clem said:

The thing that surprised me about DaveF's evocative Carrington photos a few pages back, was the two O4s pictured which were both Darnall engines. Now I remember Darnall B1s and K2s appearing on the GC at Nottingham, but never remember seeing a Darnall O4. The O1 would have certainly been an Annesley engine as the whole class apart from the 5 westinghouse ones in the NE were at Annesley during this period.

 

Good morning Clem,

 

Not in your time period. Earlier, it was not uncommon for foreign O4's to be put on a runner. Annesley lost most of its 04's by the end of 1950, a few remained as back up to the O1's and worked local coal trains between the mines and Annesley. Given the intensity of the Annesley - Woodford service, foreign engines would be nabbed as required. I have a couple of shots of York B16'S on Southbound coal trains, often with a head of vans, GM's and sometimes pipes. 

 

Things could get pretty hectic around the Nottingham - Leicester area, so ords could run under express lights and even pick up goods could run as F*. Annesley would nick a foreigner and put it on the Queens walk Leicester pick up for example but the train could be running under F* to keep it's path. Under those circumstances, half past twelve lamps on a foreign locomotive could also be a local freight working.

 

F* in the working timetable, allowed special dispensation to exceed 35 MPH if required to do so.

Edited by Headstock
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Hi Leander,

 

Thanks for the update on Scotland Street. Good to know it's still going. Thanks for the photo, just as I remembered it although It looks like  it's been updated it to the 'blue period'.

 

How many finished former exhibition layouts have had such a long life?

 

Keith

Edited by Keith Turbutt
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43 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Clem,

 

Not in your time period. Earlier, it was not uncommon for foreign O4's to be put on a runner. Annesley lost most of its 04's by the end of 1950, a few remained as back up to the O1's and worked local coal trains between the mines and Annesley. Given the intensity of the Annesley - Woodford service, foreign engines would be nabbed as required. I have a couple of shots of York B16'S on Southbound coal trains, often with a head of vans, GM's and sometimes pipes. 

 

Things could get pretty hectic around the Nottingham - Leicester area, so ords could run under express lights and even pick up goods could run as F*. Annesley would nick a foreigner and put it on the Queens walk Leicester pick up for example but the train could be running under F* to keep it's path. Under those circumstances, half past twelve lamps on a foreign locomotive could also be a local freight working.

 

F* in the working timetable, allowed special dispensation to exceed 35 MPH if required to do so.

 

My Dad had an old newspaper clipping with a photo of one the trials they did on the GC section with a fully fitted rake of 16t minerals double headed by a pair of Britannias. It is many years since I read it but I think they were hoping to run it at 60mph. That would be something unusual to run on a layout!

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36 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

My Dad had an old newspaper clipping with a photo of one the trials they did on the GC section with a fully fitted rake of 16t minerals double headed by a pair of Britannias. It is many years since I read it but I think they were hoping to run it at 60mph. That would be something unusual to run on a layout!

 

Don't be giving Tony any ideas, there will be 9' wb tin cans all over the Station masters garden. Funnily enough, there are quite a few instances of 9F's being clocked at  speeds in excess of 60 MPH, with a train of unfitted minerals. The descent from Catesby tunnel and through Staverton road being a favourite places to wake up the Guard.

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3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

ALL of Liverpool's railways are indeed interesting, with tunnels everywhere, many sadly now abandoned.

Two very good books I have are "An illustrated history of Liverpool's railways" by Paul Anderson (Irwell Press softback) and "Merseyside and district railway stations" by Paul Bolger  (The Bluecoat press softback) - lots of old photos in that book.

 

I can second the Anderson book recommendation.  I was a student in Liverpool from 1990 and while I did get out and about and take a lot of photographs, I wish I'd taken more as there was a lot that hadn't yet disappeared.  Canada Dock Goods Station and Princes Pier were disused but still complete.  By the end of my time at Uni the latter had been cleared.  Hall Road EMU depot is now housing but I managed to at least see the outside of that and fortunately I have a good photographic record of the Merseyrail Electrics running under semaphore signals.  Later this year, those EMUs will also pass into history.

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14 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Don't be giving Tony any ideas, there will be 9' wb tin cans all over the Station masters garden. Funnily enough, there are quite a few instances of 9F's being clocked at  speeds in excess of 60 MPH, with a train of unfitted minerals. The descent from Catesby tunnel and through Staverton road being a favourite places to wake up the Guard.

 

Getting a loaded train to 60mph wasn't the problem. It was the stopping it. I can just imagine what was going through the poor guard's mind, probably involving either prayer or foul language or maybe both.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That BR era map doesn't bring out the true complexity of the situation, with the multiplicity of pre-Grouping companies, either in propria persona or through their involvement in joint lines. I remember at one time being much confused by the presence of the LNER in Wales! The RCH Junction Diagrams bring out the full complexity for individual areas. Here's central Manchester in all its glory:

 

[Railway Clearing House / Public domain via Wikipedia Commons.]

 

I agree - the RCH maps are very useful, but sometimes a bit seemingly disorganised  in some cases. (Widnes, Runcorn & Barnstaple on one map !!)

 

Following your useful link found this list of  RCH maps in county order

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Railways_Junctions_Diagram_1914

 

Clicking on Lancashire, then Liverpool gives this very informative map - for PJT to look at tomorrow lunchtime !!!

 

Liverpool_RJD_42.jpg

Brit15

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7 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Getting a loaded train to 60mph wasn't the problem. It was the stopping it. I can just imagine what was going through the poor guard's mind, probably involving either prayer or foul language or maybe both.

 

They could only get away with it because of the three aspect auto distant signals. The Guard just had to strap himself in.

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2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Clicking on Lancashire, then Liverpool gives this very informative map - for PJT to look at tomorrow lunchtime !!!

 

Would you be trying to get a job as my entertainments manager?

 

Pete T.

 

P.S. Thank you, again.

 

I'm always as happy as Larry for as much time as I have available, reading a good map.  Just as absorbing as a good book to me.

 

Edited by PJT
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4 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Clem,

 

Not in your time period. Earlier, it was not uncommon for foreign O4's to be put on a runner. Annesley lost most of its 04's by the end of 1950, a few remained as back up to the O1's and worked local coal trains between the mines and Annesley. Given the intensity of the Annesley - Woodford service, foreign engines would be nabbed as required. I have a couple of shots of York B16'S on Southbound coal trains, often with a head of vans, GM's and sometimes pipes. 

 

Things could get pretty hectic around the Nottingham - Leicester area, so ords could run under express lights and even pick up goods could run as F*. Annesley would nick a foreigner and put it on the Queens walk Leicester pick up for example but the train could be running under F* to keep it's path. Under those circumstances, half past twelve lamps on a foreign locomotive could also be a local freight working.

 

F* in the working timetable, allowed special dispensation to exceed 35 MPH if required to do so.

That's really interesting Andrew. Yes 53 O1s were drafted to Annesley at the end of 1950 and from that time things changed. I believe they ran tests between the O2s, the O1s and the WDs and the O1s came out on top due to their superior braking.  I didn't see much of the GC before 1960 when we moved and by then the LMR rot had started to set in. One exception was an afternoon at Bagthorpe Junction in 1957 and I still have a vivid memory of Sir Frederick Banbury roaring by on an up express. By the time I became what I would term a professional trainspotter, it was April 58 and the A3s had gone. We'd catch the train from Radford station on the Midland Mansfield line to Nottingham Midland and park ourselves on Platform 5 just by the GC girder bridge to get the best of all worlds. Bliss... I miss those days. 

 

As always, I'm very impressed with your wide and comprehensive knowledge of the line and workings in your selected period. Something I've been meaning to ask (as I can never get enough research done to get things right) is where can you get hold of the CWNs for the 1950s? Did you go to York Museum Readers Library?

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4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

My Dad had an old newspaper clipping with a photo of one the trials they did on the GC section with a fully fitted rake of 16t minerals double headed by a pair of Britannias. It is many years since I read it but I think they were hoping to run it at 60mph. That would be something unusual to run on a layout!

Hi Tony.

 

Would that be 70043 and 70044 with the air brakes? Didn't they also test them at Toton on the Midland?

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26 minutes ago, Clem said:

Hi Tony.

 

Would that be 70043 and 70044 with the air brakes? Didn't they also test them at Toton on the Midland?

 

You could well be right but it is years since I saw the clipping. Air brakes and consecutive numbers rang a memory bell.

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52 minutes ago, Clem said:

That's really interesting Andrew. Yes 53 O1s were drafted to Annesley at the end of 1950 and from that time things changed. I believe they ran tests between the O2s, the O1s and the WDs and the O1s came out on top due to their superior braking.  I didn't see much of the GC before 1960 when we moved and by then the LMR rot had started to set in. One exception was an afternoon at Bagthorpe Junction in 1957 and I still have a vivid memory of Sir Frederick Banbury roaring by on an up express. By the time I became what I would term a professional trainspotter, it was April 58 and the A3s had gone. We'd catch the train from Radford station on the Midland Mansfield line to Nottingham Midland and park ourselves on Platform 5 just by the GC girder bridge to get the best of all worlds. Bliss... I miss those days. 

 

As always, I'm very impressed with your wide and comprehensive knowledge of the line and workings in your selected period. Something I've been meaning to ask (as I can never get enough research done to get things right) is where can you get hold of the CWNs for the 1950s? Did you go to York Museum Readers Library?

 

Good afternoon Clem,

 

not just the braking Clem, I repost the following to save time typing it out again.

 

The Thompson O1 has been a vastly underrated locomotives over the years, more for the connoisseur of performance rather than a popularity contest winner. The Annesley Woodford runners were extremely taxing workings. They were sharply timed, with a train departing Annesley ever half hour. If a train was only a minute late of the yard, it would be cancelled and later reinserted back into the sequence.  Locomotive turnround was very demanding and only one stop was allowed for water on an out and back working. The locomotives were required to maintain an average of 35 MPH on route, the runners were the fastest unfitted freight workings in the country. The locomotives were also expected brake a 750 ton unfitted freight train within section.

 

Extensive testing was carried out with different classes of 2-8-0 in the late 1940s. Such unrelated classes as the Gresley 3 cylinder O2 and the Austerity 2-8-O failed to match the performance of the Thomson O1. So successful was the Thompson locomotive, that all but five of the class was allocated to Annesley shed. When the Stannier 8F came to Annesley in the 60s, they also struggled to match the performance of the O1's on the runners. Only the mighty 9F's matched and surpassed them, when the Eastern region concentrated its single chimney locomotives at Annesley in the later 1950s. The five locomotives not allocated to Annesley were sent to Tyne Dock to work the Consett Iron ore trains, again it took the 9F's to displace the O1's from these services.

 

There was a fixed set of criteria to successfully work the Annesley Woodford runners. The Thompson O1 was master of the job, no other eight coupled heavy freight locomotive in the country could match them, those that tried were found wanting

 

CWN's are all over the place, the NRM has some and so do some other societies and museums. The most comprehensive collections are in the hands of private individuals. Robert Carol has one of the largest collections and has made them available to anybody who is interested. The Western division/area (your area) books are very comprehensive in terms of what has survived, and often contain more details than other areas. Most years still exist between 1947 and the mid sixties. Robert would be the best person to contact. I have 54/55 Summer, the info in there seems to tally with what you are after, based on the photo reference you are using. Robert may have a PDF available.

 

 

Edited by Headstock
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9 hours ago, great central said:

 

I suggested Carrington as a somewhat tongue in cheek answer to those who had pointed out the possible drawbacks with Victoria.

I spent quite a chunk of my childhood up to about 12 years of age at or around New Basford so know the area pretty well, or should I say did, been living away from the area for 50 years or so now. Having passed through and had a bit of a look there's little left at all.

New Basford would need a rather larger space than Carrington which I believe, without scrolling back to check, was pointed out as one of the drawbacks to Victoria.

 

Yes indeed; practically any GC island platform station seems to be almost impossible to design (and Lord knows I've tried ...) in OO a satisfactory layout track plan for (real or fictional) in anything less than about a 16ft garage , i.e. one that allows sufficient space for all the pointwork for outside passing loops, crossover(s) and the entrance to a goods yard all having to be located beyond the ends of the platform; and yet still has sufficient platform space for something that actually plausibly "looks like" an express from later LNER or BR days to stop.  By which I would suggest that, whilst I know Tony reckons it won't look like an ECML express with anything less than a full dozen on, you could probably get something most modellers would say was looking reasonably 'representational' of a GCLE express in BR days with a selectively-compressed six or seven.

 

The great Barry Norman's book on layout design includes a lovely representation of Charwelton - ironstone branch, goods yard, passing loops and all, in 12 x 8 ft.  Only, when you look closer, the platform length would just about allow an engine and three carriages.  Fair enough, you might say; the trains that actually stopped there weren't so very much longer than that, so build it like he drew it and just watch the expresses and Windcutters roll through.  Except you still can't, because the fiddle yard in the design is also only just over 4ft long. ...

 

And yes, I know, I know - "why include a station at all?, or else "then model something else that you do have plausible space for instead".  To which I can only give you the "Mount Everest" response.  But in the end I am having no option to take such a course, though still with a GC flavour.  For many railway modellers tight for space yet for whom a micro-layout simply will not do, 'History' has to be something of an elastic concept!

 

Edited by Willie Whizz
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49 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

 

 

CWN's are all over the place, the NRM has some and so do some other societies and museums. The most comprehensive collections are in the hands of private individuals. Robert Carol has one of the largest collections and has made them available to anybody who is interested. The Western division/area (your area) books are very comprehensive in terms of what has survived, and often contain more details than other areas. Most years still exist between 1947 and the mid sixties. Robert would be the best person to contact. I have 54/55 Summer, the info in there seems to tally with what you are after, based on the photo reference you are using. Robert may have a PDF available.

 

 

Thanks, Andrew. Summer 1955 is one I don't have but I have lots of others covering the GC. My big gap is the final three timetables before the LMR took full control, ie Summer 1957, Winter 1957/8 and Summer 1958.  The GC London Extension is a fascinating line. My interest is undiminished from the day I first learned of the line and its demise by seeing a report on TV (Nationwide) in 1976, marking 10 years since closure as a through route. 

 

I have some photos in my collection too. They should all be in my GC album, which includes other GC lines and joint lines such as the CLC, GW&GC and Met&GC.

 

Some Neil Sprinks negatives have recently come onto the market and I have purchased some, including this 1952 shot of the Master Cutler, uploaded today:

 

50107048603_6a236403d0_c.jpg60052_M-Cut_SeerGreen_7-6-52 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

It's the Saturday train, so no RFO.

 

Mention of O1s reminds me that I also have this image:

30974130478_1d37465b7b_c.jpg63619_Charwelton_7-51 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Also a 1948 shot of the South Yorkshireman - don't know who the photographer was - it came  from Transport Treasury:

50087471288_27b80ea434_c.jpgE1299_South-Yorkshireman_c1948 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

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To go back to the V2's for a moment, what was the conclusion regarding using drills on the 3D prints? Is it very slow with a hand held pin vice or very fast with, say, a Dremel type drill? 

 

Chas

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52 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

 

The great Barry Norman's book on layout design includes a lovely representation of Charwelton - ironstone branch, goods yard, passing loops and all, in 12 x 8 ft.  Only, when you look closer, the platform length would just about allow an engine and three carriages.  Fair enough, you might say; the trains that actually stopped there weren't so very much longer than that, so build it like he drew it and just watch the expresses and Windcutters roll through.  Except you still can't, because the fiddle yard in the design is also only just over 4ft long. ...

 

 

 

 

That plan made so little sense as drawn that I started to wonder if it was meant to be 2mm - but even then I suspect it would be a stretch.

 

The book as a whole has some great inspiration in it, though.

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53 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Thanks, Andrew. Summer 1955 is one I don't have but I have lots of others covering the GC. My big gap is the final three timetables before the LMR took full control, ie Summer 1957, Winter 1957/8 and Summer 1958.  The GC London Extension is a fascinating line. My interest is undiminished from the day I first learned of the line and its demise by seeing a report on TV (Nationwide) in 1976, marking 10 years since closure as a through route. 

 

I have some photos in my collection too. They should all be in my GC album, which includes other GC lines and joint lines such as the CLC, GW&GC and Met&GC.

 

Some Neil Sprinks negatives have recently come onto the market and I have purchased some, including this 1952 shot of the Master Cutler, uploaded today:

 

50107048603_6a236403d0_c.jpg60052_M-Cut_SeerGreen_7-6-52 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

It's the Saturday train, so no RFO.

 

Mention of O1s reminds me that I also have this image:

30974130478_1d37465b7b_c.jpg63619_Charwelton_7-51 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Also a 1948 shot of the South Yorkshireman - don't know who the photographer was - it came  from Transport Treasury:

50087471288_27b80ea434_c.jpgE1299_South-Yorkshireman_c1948 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Good evening Robert,

 

you are indeed a modern philanthropist in regard to your collections, as well as a preserver of our history. It's worth quoting your post, just to repeat the gorgeous photographs of the most gorgeous of lines. Proof, if it was needed, that you don't need to model a station to model the GC, the stock is too nice to hide behind a platform in my opinion. People who get got by the GCR and it's London extension are the luckiest people in model railways, don't let on to anybody else though.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

Yes indeed; practically any GC island platform station seems to be almost impossible to design (and Lord knows I've tried ...) in OO a satisfactory layout track plan for (real or fictional) in anything less than about a 16ft garage , i.e. one that allows sufficient space for all the pointwork for outside passing loops, crossover(s) and the entrance to a goods yard all having to be located beyond the ends of the platform; and yet still has sufficient platform space for something that actually plausibly "looks like" an express from later LNER or BR days to stop.  By which I would suggest that, whilst I know Tony reckons it won't look like an ECML express with anything less than a full dozen on, you could probably get something most modellers would say was looking reasonably 'representational' of a GCLE express in BR days with a selectively-compressed six or seven.

 

The great Barry Norman's book on layout design includes a lovely representation of Charwelton - ironstone branch, goods yard, passing loops and all, in 12 x 8 ft.  Only, when you look closer, the platform length would just about allow an engine and three carriages.  Fair enough, you might say; the trains that actually stopped there weren't so very much longer than that, so build it like he drew it and just watch the expresses and Windcutters roll through.  Except you still can't, because the fiddle yard in the design is also only just over 4ft long. ...

 

And yes, I know, I know - "why include a station at all?, or else "then model something else that you do have plausible space for instead".  To which I can only give you the "Mount Everest" response.  But in the end I am having no option to take such a course, though still with a GC flavour.  For many railway modellers tight for space yet for whom a micro-layout simply will not do, 'History' has to be something of an elastic concept!

 

 

The answer is easy, build it in 2mm!

 

Jerry

 

Edit to say I didn't see Barry Ten's response.

Edited by queensquare
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3 hours ago, Clem said:

That's really interesting Andrew. Yes 53 O1s were drafted to Annesley at the end of 1950 and from that time things changed. I believe they ran tests between the O2s, the O1s and the WDs and the O1s came out on top due to their superior braking.  I didn't see much of the GC before 1960 when we moved and by then the LMR rot had started to set in. One exception was an afternoon at Bagthorpe Junction in 1957 and I still have a vivid memory of Sir Frederick Banbury roaring by on an up express. By the time I became what I would term a professional trainspotter, it was April 58 and the A3s had gone. We'd catch the train from Radford station on the Midland Mansfield line to Nottingham Midland and park ourselves on Platform 5 just by the GC girder bridge to get the best of all worlds. Bliss... I miss those days. 

 

As always, I'm very impressed with your wide and comprehensive knowledge of the line and workings in your selected period. Something I've been meaning to ask (as I can never get enough research done to get things right) is where can you get hold of the CWNs for the 1950s? Did you go to York Museum Readers Library?

 

Evening Clem,

 

I forgot to mention, silly me. That's a fantastic memory regarding Fredy B. The locomotive was highly regarded by the engine men that I spoke to, with regard to its time on the GC.  It never seems to get the attention that other GC A3's, such as Scotsman, Palatine or Enterprise received.

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2 hours ago, Headstock said:

When the Stannier 8F came to Annesley in the 60s, they also struggled to match the performance of the O1's on the runners.

Yes I heard this too. The Annesley O1s were stored and most withdrawn in 1962 on orders from the LMR hierarchy in spite of the crews' preference for the O1s. I think a small number escaped to Staveley if I remember correctly. Along with the B1s, Thompson's most successful Loco, I think.

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2 minutes ago, Headstock said:

It never seems to get the attention that other GC A3's, such as Scotsman, Palatine or Enterprise received.

It was always a favourite of mine, as well! 

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Trivial I know, but the name may have something to do with it.  'Frederick' was a perfectly normal and widespread monniker when the gentleman concerned was born, and still so when his career reached the pinnacle of having a major locomotive named after him.  But like a lot of other names from that period - and perhaps even more than most - somewhere along the way it turned into a snigger and a joke, so that nowadays it is almost impossible to take 'Fred' or 'Frederick' seriously.  Same with names like 'Aubrey' and 'Claude'.  Sad, but there it is ...

 

(WW - who apologises to any posters with those names, but knows that of which he speaks; as my grandfather was one 'Frederick Percival Gloyns', which was a source of endless amusement to my eight-year old self ...)

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