Wright writes.....

[Jesse Sim]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Hi Jesse,

 

Apologies if you know this already Jesse but brass is a very good conductor of heat and, particularly if you're working with quite a big lump, the heat goes away from the particular area where you're trying to make your joint to everywhere else where you don't want it to. Nickel silver is a (much) easier material to work with in that regard.

 

A decent, temperature-controlled iron is the way to go - advice I should follow myself!

Hi Graham, 

 

I didn’t know that, learn something new everyday, I haven’t used nickel silver yet, I have one of your B3’s here, on the to do list. 
 

I kept finding that my iron wouldn’t even solder a joint together unless I really held the iron in there before it flowed. White metal the total opposite. 

[Hollar]

13 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

Hi Graham, 

 

I didn’t know that, learn something new everyday, I haven’t used nickel silver yet, I have one of your B3’s here, on the to do list. 
 

I kept finding that my iron wouldn’t even solder a joint together unless I really held the iron in there before it flowed. White metal the total opposite. 

Earlier this year I finally gave up on my old 40w temperature controlled iron and replaced it with a 70w Weller unit - and wish I had done it much earlier.  I've not found a job it didn't breeze through, and changing bits is really quick and burn-free.  The one disappointment is that it doesn't have a pilot light and I have more than once left it on overnight, which is just annoying.

 

Tone

[thegreenhowards]

18 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Many thanks for all the recent comments on GN Atlantics.

 

Some of the solutions promulgated with regard to good riding are quite sophisticated; beyond many, I'd opine.

 

At the risk of sounding something of a heretic, all my locos built with bogies/ponies up front, don't need them for good riding at all. They work just as well as four-, six-, eight or 10-coupled (apart from some four-coupled where the bogie is sprung to balance the body). In OO (and EM) I've never found the need for the bogie or pony to 'guide' the loco into curves (unlike the prototype). In fact, on some locos (built by others) which I've been asked to fix, I've found that complexities regarding bogies/ponies actually cause poorer running. I've thus junked the lot and soldered lead slugs into them, giving excellent running. 

 

I admit, I dislike carving bits off the backs of cylinders, but we are asking our locos to go round curves often intolerable in a colliery or dockyard. 

 

We cannot build 'scale' models, because some clearance will end up being negative if we tried, such are the close tolerances. 

 

I ask myself some simple questions when I've finished a loco...........

 

1. Does it 'near enough' look like the prototype?

2. Does it 'work' like the prototype? By that I mean will it pull prototype-length/weight trains, often at high speed, without derailment (around daft curves), stuttering or jerking?

3. Is it easy to maintain, adjust and dismantle if necessary (RTR manufacturers please note)? 

4. Is it the simplest solution for achieving points 1, 2 and 3? 

5. (subjective, I admit) Is it my work?

Thanks for that list. I certainly cheered me up after feeling rather depressed at the list of things wrong with the C2. It certainly looks like a Klondike to my (less discerning) eyes so it will do for me. I’m going to have enough of a challenge painting it in GNR livery! I think I’ve met 4.5 of your tests and will get there on ‘2’  with a little more fettling. Sadly none of my kit built locos run as smoothly as my RTR stock but I certainly agree that I get more satisfaction from running them.

[t-b-g]

I think we have probably done this subject before but trying to find it in nearly 2000 pages isn't easy!

 

My own soldering was totally transformed when I obtained an ERSA 150w iron (an i-con 1) , having seen one in use at Missenden by the O Gauge gang.

 

The actual iron is tiny, smaller than the the 25W Antex, yet it will solder several layers of 18thou brass together and if you are soldering at one end of an O gauge boiler, the other end gets almost too hot to hold.

 

Yet it will do the most delicate work as you can get the iron in, get a small area very hot quickly to make a good joint and get it out before anything else melts.

 

I thought I was a half decent solderer before I got it. Now there is no soldering job that bothers me. I just know the iron will do what I want.

 

The soldering of the little bits on Valour was all done with a tiny tip, which gave off enough heat to make a good joint on thick walled brass tube with a double wrapper round the smokebox, making the brass, in total, about 1.5mm thick.  

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Clem said:

You've only missed it by a year. It was a Colwick loco until October 1957 and as such may well have appeared quite frequently at LB. 

Thanks Clem,

 

Actually, J39s do not seem to have been common through LB (at least with regard to the number of pictures I've found of them between Grantham and Peterborough), J6s being in abundance in comparison, which, I suppose, is expected.

 

Despite Little Bytham representing (nominally) the high-summer of 1958, I admit there is some 'flexibility' in what's run. For instance, the prototype Deltic appears (which puts it after February 1959) and, from time to time, a Grantham-based B12/3 (which means no later than 1956). I'm prepared to live with such 'outrages' because what I build is representative of my own high-summer of trainspotting; the years 1956-'62. 

 

It's remarkable isn't it, that such a short time-span (in my case between the ages of ten and 16) should have such a profound effect on what I've done (model-making wise) for my adult life? As you quite rightly say, it was the 'greatest free show on earth' at the time and I'm forever grateful that I witnessed it; whether that be watching on the WCML, the ECML or on my home patch at Chester. Visits to the SR were later, when I'd grown out of just 'collecting numbers', though, sadly, I never did get to Scotland in steam days. However, I did have the opportunity (which, foolishly, I didn't take). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jwealleans]

2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

My own soldering was totally transformed when I obtained an ERSA 150w iron (an i-con 1)

 

Couldn't agree more - I bought one based on your (and other) recommendations and I'm delighted with it.

[thegreenhowards]

9 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Tony,

Many of the techniques I use now were both unknown to me and beyond my abilities 20 or 30  years ago.  Thanks to experts such as yourself who are willing to demonstrate techniques and share their ideas  (usually at exhibitions), with the knowledge so gained and with a lot of practice I have slowly developed as a modeller.   They say that necessity is the mother of invention and this has never been so true as my involvement in the Clayton project.    

 

My list is therefore slightly different to yours: 

For me:

1 - 3.  I agree with you.

4. Have I found the best way to overcome any challenges that I might have hit whilst building the model?  Keeping things simple is good but a slightly more complicated approach can on occasion deliver a better outcome.

 

5. Can I use a commercial model or the work of someone else to give me a jump start on my next model?   We need 30 locomotives for Clayton.  Some of these are having to be built from scratch and so to counter this using a commercial or 2nd hand model as a starting point can be an enjoyable alternative.   

 

I would then add to my list:

6. Have I built the model to the best of my ability?

And Ideally:

7. Have I been able to develop my skills whilst making the model?

8. Have I enjoyed the experience?

 

What would others put in their list I wonder?

 

Regards,

Frank

 

       

 

 

Frank,

 

I agree with your additions. Having come back to the hobby in my ‘50s and being an impatient b....r, I certainly agree with 5. My experience of buying 2nd hand models, is that they always need more work than you expect, but they are generally much quicker than starting from scratch - if I could build as quickly and as well as Tony then the equation would change. My best running kit built locos all have a RTR chassis - sometimes modified to fit. This is my normal approach when there is a suitable RTR chassis. It’s also often cheaper to buy RTR and throw away/ sell the body than to buy wheels and motor for the kit. Perhaps I should have done that for the Klondike, but the RTR is expensive in this case, I had the motor/ wheels in stock and there’s no outside valve gear.

 

With 6. I think there is a time/ fidelity trade off. I sometimes know I could do better but I want to get the model finished in a reasonable period of time so accept the compromise. 

 

I might add a point:

9. Does it fit with a current scheme to create a particular train. E.g. The C2 is to help me create ‘The Plant Centenarian’, so many of my next kits will be the coaches for that. The C1 will be RTR.

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

11 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks for that list. I certainly cheered me up after feeling rather depressed at the list of things wrong with the C2. It certainly looks like a Klondike to my (less discerning) eyes so it will do for me. I’m going to have enough of a challenge painting it in GNR livery! I think I’ve met 4.5 of your tests and will get there on ‘2’  with a little more fettling. Sadly none of my kit built locos run as smoothly as my RTR stock but I certainly agree that I get more satisfaction from running them.

Good morning Andy,

 

You're getting there with '2' (there's nothing wrong with 60506's running) and, eventually, you'll reach the point where your kit-built locos will out-perform most of what's RTR, especially in terms of haulage-capability. 

 

As you know, I have so little in the way of RTR locos because they won't pull Bytham's (very heavy) trains. And, as for the satisfaction of actually having made a loco yourself, one can be the owner of hundreds of RTR items of motive power and not come near the 'delight' of being able to say 'I made that'. 

 

Keep it up my friend - you're a 'real' railway modeller in my book (the fact that you're contemplating painting your Klondike yourself proves that). You make things yourself, you're self-reliant and you give it a go rather than putting barriers up and asking others to 'do it for you'. I commend you.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

 

 

It's probably the result of some post lockdown syndrome but I'm sure the cylinders keep changing colour from one picture to another. 

 

Well spotted. I sprayed the loco with Railmatch olive, then brush painted the cylinders with Precision olive, but they're very different shades. I later

redid them. I forget which is olive, dark olive, light olive etc. I think it's the least of the engine's problems!

[thegreenhowards]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

 

You're getting there with '2' (there's nothing wrong with 60506's running) and, eventually, you'll reach the point where your kit-built locos will out-perform most of what's RTR, especially in terms of haulage-capability. 

 

As you know, I have so little in the way of RTR locos because they won't pull Bytham's (very heavy) trains. And, as for the satisfaction of actually having made a loco yourself, one can be the owner of hundreds of RTR items of motive power and not come near the 'delight' of being able to say 'I made that'. 

 

Keep it up my friend - you're a 'real' railway modeller in my book (the fact that you're contemplating painting your Klondike yourself proves that). You make things yourself, you're self-reliant and you give it a go rather than putting barriers up and asking others to 'do it for you'. I commend you.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony,

 

60506 is certainly satisfactory, but it’s much noisier and less smooth at low speed than my RTR Pacifics. My K3 (826) is probably the best, but, if you remember, you had to tweak that to get it running as well as it does. I know I have to keep trying but I do find it frustrating that it takes (me) so long to get anything like satisfactory performance from a kit.
 

The satisfaction point is certainly true and if it was easy, it would be less true, so I suppose we have something to be grateful for!

 

As for painting, for me that’s an essential part of being able to say I made that myself. I also think I’m better at painting than building a chassis! Whether I manage to paint the Klondike to an acceptable standard is still an open question - both the two tone tender and the red lining on the frames look pretty daunting!
 

Andy
 

 

 

[gr.king]

24 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

My own soldering was totally transformed when I obtained an ERSA 150w iron (an i-con 1) ,

 

I'd be interested to know from those who have such irons, in respect of how long they've had them, how much they've used them, and how durable/reliable they've been, given that these are evidently small irons producing a lot of power.

[Barry Ten]

3 hours ago, Adam said:

 

To give a sense of exactly what is wrong with the DJH S15 and the work required to get a loco that looks like one (a Maunsell example in this case) you could do worse than to take a look at Andy Avis's thread on his effort:

 

 

I remember talking to Andy about this before he started and even then we were of the view that it was a dog of a kit. Hats off for his persistence however.

 

Adam

 

 

He's made a very good job of that. But I don't think it's on to call the designers of kits "fools". That crosses a line for me. 

 

Al

[great central]

10 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks for that list. I certainly cheered me up after feeling rather depressed at the list of things wrong with the C2. It certainly looks like a Klondike to my (less discerning) eyes so it will do for me. I’m going to have enough of a challenge painting it in GNR livery! I think I’ve met 4.5 of your tests and will get there on ‘2’  with a little more fettling. Sadly none of my kit built locos run as smoothly as my RTR stock but I certainly agree that I get more satisfaction from running them.

 

I think it's all to easy to be dispirited by other people's standards. There are some very fine models shown on the internet nowadays, many of them on this very thread. There are also many not so great models shown that, nonetheless, the builder is proud of, but can be then totally deflated by some people's comments.

I've nothing against constructive criticism but that can very easily be interpreted wrongly if not carefully phrased, the typed word carries nothing more than the letters used, no emotional input.

If you say to someone's face ' that's rubbish' but with a smile it's usually taken lightly as intended, type it and it's just taken as 'rubbish' and totally demoralising.

Over 40 or so years I've assembled many kits although my output has dwindled to virtually zero in the last few years, party due to the rise of RTR but also a lack of somewhere to run anything, the last reliable one was probably a DJH 9F over 15 years ago!

We can now also examine models in minute detail thanks to digital cameras and the capacity to zoom in on anything, obviously subject to the limits imposed by the technology in use, therefore seeing the slightest blemish. 

There are some models shown here that seem to be generally approved of, yet I look at the photo and see something that looks odd, whether others don't notice I know not but they don't seem to attract comments. Perhaps it's distortion as I use my phone almost exclusively now for the internet, our PC has pretty much given up the ghost and I can take my phone with me.

What I'm trying to say, and probably waffling instead, is everyone should set their own standards that they're happy with and accept the compromises they have to make. Equally others, while offering advice and observations, should accept the original builder's standards without harsh criticism.

Let's face it most of the models on this thread are running on narrower gauge track than the prototype, around corners that are totally unfeasible and they've got a ruddy great electric motor in the boiler! 

 

[gr.king]

9 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

5. Can I use a commercial model or the work of someone else to give me a jump start on my next model?   We need 30 locomotives for Clayton.  Some of these are having to be built from scratch and so to counter this using a commercial or 2nd hand model as a starting point can be an enjoyable alternative.   

 

Regards,

Frank

 

Exploiting a commercial model to give a flying start on a project to create something better or different has often been my approach.

 

As the question of loco height has been suggested as one of the key criteria for structure clearance, what about width? It is not unknown for cylinders to be located too far outboard in order to give clearance for the motion outside wheel sets with vast amounts of sideplay. Platform edges are then either fouled, or cannot be placed realistically close to the track.

[Legend]

On ‎24‎/‎07‎/‎2020 at 10:36, MJI said:

 

The DMSL body is too far down the chassis and the TSLB body has sprung up.

 

Next job is placing locating blocks to get the body height correct.

 

Still need to do wipers, curtains, repair TSLB body after it rolled off and split roof joint, more chassis paint, exhausts and some bar couplers.

 

Can I ask what you are going to use for Windscreen Wipers . Is there something available?

[Jamiel]

A little late to the recent postings of DMUs, but here is one I have been working on for some time, a 3 car Class 120, OO gauge. Made using a Craftsman conversion kit, on Comet underframes, with the centre car powered by a Replica Railways chassis.

 

Getting near to being finished, but the roof needs a spray to even out the colour, connecting wires need painting, and it all needs weathering. The centre car needs a bit more work, and I need to run it on the layout (currently in parts) to test the wiring to finish that (DCC with roof lights and LEDs in the outer front marker lights, on two different circuits). The bodies also need sitting on the frames better, I think the front holes for the bolts need opening out a little as one of the frames is bowing a little.

 

A few photos of the end units which are very nearly done. The first was a couple of weeks ago, the other after more painting.

 

 

 

I did repaint the passenger in the ‘dog poo brown’ coat and the bright red lady at the back after seeing the photos.

 

Lovely to see the other photos of DMUs on here, and of course thanks for the advice from the thread.

 

Jamie

Edited July 27, 2020 by Jamiel

[thegreenhowards]

7 minutes ago, great central said:

 

I think it's all to easy to be dispirited by other people's standards. There are some very fine models shown on the internet nowadays, many of them on this very thread. There are also many not so great models shown that, nonetheless, the builder is proud of, but can be then totally deflated by some people's comments.

I've nothing against constructive criticism but that can very easily be interpreted wrongly if not carefully phrased, the typed word carries nothing more than the letters used, no emotional input.

If you say to someone's face ' that's rubbish' but with a smile it's usually taken lightly as intended, type it and it's just taken as 'rubbish' and totally demoralising.

Over 40 or so years I've assembled many kits although my output has dwindled to virtually zero in the last few years, party due to the rise of RTR but also a lack of somewhere to run anything, the last reliable one was probably a DJH 9F over 15 years ago!

We can now also examine models in minute detail thanks to digital cameras and the capacity to zoom in on anything, obviously subject to the limits imposed by the technology in use, therefore seeing the slightest blemish. 

There are some models shown here that seem to be generally approved of, yet I look at the photo and see something that looks odd, whether others don't notice I know not but they don't seem to attract comments. Perhaps it's distortion as I use my phone almost exclusively now for the internet, our PC has pretty much given up the ghost and I can take my phone with me.

What I'm trying to say, and probably waffling instead, is everyone should set their own standards that they're happy with and accept the compromises they have to make. Equally others, while offering advice and observations, should accept the original builder's standards without harsh criticism.

Let's face it most of the models on this thread are running on narrower gauge track than the prototype, around corners that are totally unfeasible and they've got a ruddy great electric motor in the boiler! 

 

Thanks for those words of encouragement. I like constructive criticism...if I didn’t I clearly wouldn’t post on here! I just find that I have to be selective about which parts to follow up on otherwise it can be too time consuming.
 

When there’s a long lost of things that are wrong then it can be depressing although at least in this case it’s mainly the kits fault and my only fault is in failing to spot the problems and rectify them. I  would love to get to the stage where I can build a smooth chassis, but I don’t think I’ll ever worry about all the finer points of detail providing it looks the part and is well constructed - life’s too short!
 

What you’re saying about digital cameras is certainly true. I often weather things which look great on the layout, but when I photograph them with strong light I notice lots of less subtle bits which need to be rectified.

Andy

[LNER4479]

50 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I think we have probably done this subject before but trying to find it in nearly 2000 pages isn't easy!

 

My own soldering was totally transformed when I obtained an ERSA 150w iron (an i-con 1) , having seen one in use at Missenden ...

 

47 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

Couldn't agree more - I bought one based on your (and other) recommendations and I'm delighted with it.

Thanks - now formally on my shopping list.

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Jesse Sim said:

Hi Graham, 

 

I didn’t know that, learn something new everyday, I haven’t used nickel silver yet, I have one of your B3’s here, on the to do list. 
 

I kept finding that my iron wouldn’t even solder a joint together unless I really held the iron in there before it flowed. White metal the total opposite. 

Jesse,

 

As an interim - and rather crude - solution, try this. If you're soldering on to a big area of brass, wet the areas either side of where you want the solder to be. Either brush on a few drops of water or use a small, folded piece of kitchen cloth, suitably wetted and clamped to your piece. That will reduce the tendency of the heat to flow away from where you want it to be. Note that you'll need to leave a small space between the water and your fluxed up joint-to-be otherwise you'll just end up with a lot of fizzing and a cloud of smoke, following which you'll have to dry it all off and start again (don't ask me how I know this)

 

I also use this technique if I've been daft enough to already affix some w/m parts nearby then find I need to do some further brass soldering.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, gr.king said:

 

I'd be interested to know from those who have such irons, in respect of how long they've had them, how much they've used them, and how durable/reliable they've been, given that these are evidently small irons producing a lot of power.

 

Mine has been in regular use for several years and gets lots of use. It is rare when it isn't on for some part of a day and often for hours. It has a "standby mode" with a timer, so if you don't use it for a few minutes (you can set how long) , the power level and temperature drop to whatever you want to set it at to save overheating. When you pick it up again, the power kicks in and it is up to temperature within a few seconds. I have had to replace bits but other than that I have had no problems. It has a digital temperature read out and reckons to be within 2 degrees of what is showing on the screen. I set mine at 175 degrees when soldering whitemetal and can use 145 degree solder with no danger of melting anything and I can undo joints to move things (yes, I get things wrong sometimes).

 

If you want to solder armour plate, you put a big bit in and wind it up to 450 degrees but I haven't tried that yet!  

 

They are not cheap but I really do feel that it is one of those cases of paying top money for a top quality product. If mine fell apart tomorrow, I would be buying another straight away.

Edited July 27, 2020 by t-b-g
Spelling

[jwealleans]

49 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks - now formally on my shopping list.

 

You're welcome to call in and try before you buy.

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Can I ask what you are going to use for Windscreen Wipers . Is there something available?

 

MJT etches from Dart Castings

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Jamiel said:

A little late to the recent postings of DMUs, but here is one I have been working on for some time, a 3 car Class 120, OO gauge. Made using a Craftsman conversion kit, on Comet underframes, with the centre car powered by a Replica Railways chassis.

 

Getting near to being finished, but the roof needs a spray to even out the colour, connecting wires need painting, and it all needs weathering. The centre car needs a bit more work, and I need to run it on the layout (currently in parts) to test the wiring to finish that (DCC with roof lights and LEDs in the outer front marker lights, on two different circuits). The bodies also need sitting on the frames better, I think the front holes for the bolts need opening out a little as one of the frames is bowing a little.

 

A few photos of the end units which are very nearly done. The first was a couple of weeks ago, the other after more painting.

 

 

 

I did repaint the passenger in the ‘dog poo brown’ coat and the bright red lady at the back after seeing the photos.

 

Lovely to see the other photos of DMUs on here, and of course thanks for the advice from the thread.

 

Jamie

 

I NEED a 120

 

Very nice

 

don't let me near it or it will become a blue grey WR set.

 

I need to find a set of those etches myself.

[Jesse Sim]

Thanks to all regarding the soldering iron, I’ve found one at a tool shop for 300 bucks, bargain considering I paid 200 for the 25w one from Jaycar (bunch of knobs they are). I know more about electrical stuff then these so called “electronic store workers” and that’s saying something. Good thing about where I’m going to buy this soldering iron from, Total Tools, is that I have a discount card- I must be getting old if I’m getting excited about a discounted soldering iron..........

[PJT]

1 hour ago, Jesse Sim said:

I must be getting old if I’m getting excited about a discounted soldering iron..........

 

That's not the bit that qualifies you as 'old' (in my book you can get excited about having 'the right tool at the right price' for the job at any age).  It's the bit beforehand, saying how the people in the shop don't know anything about the stuff they're selling; that definitely means you've joined the club of grumpy old so-and-so's.  And I expect you're right, too.

 

Pete T.