Wright writes.....

[t-b-g]

11 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Tony,

 

nothing is conclusive. There are plenty of colour photographs that show green splasher tops, not one of black has been put forwards. Invariably, those images that have  been claimed to be black are from black and white photographs, that makes no sense, or just dirt as in the photo below. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, checking the records of individual works may supply some results,  though I believe that all the ex GN Atlantics were shopped at Doncaster? Early LNER liveries, when standardization may have been less enforced, is a possible place to look.

 

 

I agree, it is very hard to tell from a B & W photo, usually showing everything a dusty grey. Even on a colour photo, as you have shown, it isn't easy to tell.

 

Part of the difficulty is that it is one place on a loco where green and black colours are not (always) separated by a white line. It just changes on the corner of a splasher, so you get different reflections off the side and top anyway, creating an impression that they are different.

 

There are a tiny number of photos which you can say with certainty show a black splasher top. There must have been a particular type of film that really picked up the contrast between green and black that was used for a handful of photos.

 

As you point out, mostly in early LNER days when livery was in a transition phase anyway.

 

An easily found example is on page 4 of "Locomotives Illustrated" No 126, on the GNR 4-4-0 types. A full page photo of a nice clean No. 65 at Nottingham just after the grouping. Nobody will ever convince me that the splasher top on that is green!

 

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Over the Pond our American cousins made some wonderful steam locos, but most lacked grace, even their attempts at streamlining most looked really awful. Late in the day of steam (1945/6) the New York Central built the Niagara class for high speed passenger service between New York & Chicago - a success in every department and, for a Yank loco a handsome looking one also, They were a success, and just as good as diesels (cost/mile $ wise) - but the diesels came and ousted them in the 50's. None were preserved.

 

 

Brit15

 

If I may interject at this point, the New York Central didn't build the Niagara class - they were built by Alco in 3 small classes, S1a, S1b and S2. 

 

There's a reason it has more than a passing resemblance to the more well-known Union Pacific FEF classes.

[Headstock]

6 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

I agree, it is very hard to tell from a B & W photo, usually showing everything a dusty grey. Even on a colour photo, as you have shown, it isn't easy to tell.

 

Part of the difficulty is that it is one place on a loco where green and black colours are not (always) separated by a white line. It just changes on the corner of a splasher, so you get different reflections off the side and top anyway, creating an impression that they are different.

 

There are a tiny number of photos which you can say with certainty show a black splasher top. There must have been a particular type of film that really picked up the contrast between green and black that was used for a handful of photos.

 

As you point out, mostly in early LNER days when livery was in a transition phase anyway.

 

An easily found example is on page 4 of "Locomotives Illustrated" No 126, on the GNR 4-4-0 types. A full page photo of a nice clean No. 65 at Nottingham just after the grouping. Nobody will ever convince me that the splasher top on that is green!

 

 

 

Tony,

 

I've been told it is illegal to model the LNER before 1935.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Ludicrously entertaining... sorry if you only like 'British' steam, but other folk had some handsome kit too

 

 

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

There are plenty of colour photographs that show green splasher tops, not one of black has been put forwards. Invariably, those images that have  been claimed to be black are from black and white photographs, that makes no sense, or just dirt as in the photo below. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, checking the records of individual works may supply some results,  though I believe that all the ex GN Atlantics were shopped at Doncaster? Early LNER liveries, when standardization may have been less enforced, is a possible place to look.

 

I tend to believe in the principle of 'there are the rules ... and then there is what actually happened'.

 

Actually, I think you might be on to something in terms of the approach of individual works, a more well-known manifestation of which is Darlington green cylinder panels, is it not?

 

T-B-G's current conundrum re B3s of course centres on the practices at Gorton ...

Edited July 28, 2020 by LNER4479

[Headstock]

An opportunity presents itself to try out my newly acquired knowledge of RM web.

My steel train is  nearing completion, it is probably the equivalent of eleven or twelve bogies.  Not super ginormous but it packs away in a single box. There are just two runners still to construct, the Cambrian LMS low goods makes a convenient runner. It is probably the easiest kits to construct that I have encountered in over one hundred years of railway modeling, or thereabouts.

 
In the meantime it's been a case of running back down the train, wagon by wagon, making up the loads. A bit of research was required on steel products, dimensions and weights. I also had to consider the finish, I wanted to keep the weathering quite subtle. I've seen some fantastic, well observed, examples of steel loads on RM web. However, they often look more like the load has spent a couple of years rotting away in a siding, rather than moving between steel plants. In addition, I had twenty loads to deal with in one go, so super detail scrap piles would take another year or alternatively three months of lockdown.

 

The loads were taken from prototype photographs and checked with both an manufactures product catalogue and the relevant wagon loading manual. The final stage will be to run through the whole train again adding securing chains and shackles, a big job in itself. The loads are made up as follows.

flexible steel plates are carried on double bolsters wagons. I have a soft spot for these LMS ones, there are two in the train. If you were to fit a petrol engine, you would have a pretty good go kart. 

 

 

45' steel billets on the Quints, these are not retained by the the fixed stanchions on the bolsters and will require special securing. I need to sort out that three link coupling.

 

 

Steel slabs on plate and boplates wagons , the former are not shown. The top layer of slabs on the boplate are taken from prototypical practice, they are angled and wedged between the sides, the sloping end plates and each other.

 

 

30' steel rods on the Quints and double bolsters, the latter are not shown and will require runners due to the slight overhang of the rods. Also not photographed are oversized steel plates on trestles, a bit of a model railway bridge bus this one. It may not make the final cut.

 

 

This particular quint is one of the original batch with the bolsters at the outer ends. later batches had an alternative position added for the bolsters that was placed over the bogies if required. To alter the kit to the original version, this required the sanding back of this position as provided on the Cambrian kit and the filling in of the chain pockets associated with it. The planking could then be  reinstated to produce an original quint. There are two of the original quints in the train, two of the later batches with alternative bolster positions and one of the steel bodied final batch. For lococentrics, think A2/2,  A2/1,  A2/3.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Headstock
make a space

[t-b-g]

19 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Tony,

 

I've been told it is illegal to model the LNER before 1935.

 

Guilty as charged. I don't "do" modern. Modern image for me started in 1923.

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I tend to believe in the principle of 'there are the rules ... and then there is what actually happened'.

 

Actually, I think you might be on to something in terms of the approach of individual works, a more well-known manifestation of which is Darlington green cylinder panels, is it not?

 

T-B-G's current conundrum re B3s of course centres on the practices at Gorton ...

 

I have decided that mine are going to be red, just to make a change from black or green. There is a period coloured image that shows them that way and that is as good as I am going to get. 

[Headstock]

29 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Ludicrously entertaining... sorry if you only like 'British' steam, but other folk had some handsome kit too

 

 

 

I love the FEF.

 

18 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I tend to believe in the principle of 'there are the rules ... and then there is what actually happened'.

 

Actually, I think you might be on to something in terms of the approach of individual works, a more well-known manifestation of which is Darlington green cylinder panels, is it not?

 

T-B-G's current conundrum re B3s of course centres on the practices at Gorton ...

 

I was thinking that a paperwork solution can often come to the rescue when photographs are not available. The traffic committee reports make for some fascinating reading. I've recently gone through a whole batch on wagon sheeting, there is a real tale to be told.

 

P.S. The driving wheels for the rambling black pig arrived today.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Headstock
add p.s.

[Headstock]

12 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I have decided that mine are going to be red, just to make a change from black or green. There is a period coloured image that shows them that way and that is as good as I am going to get. 

 

Good show.

[Headstock]

While I was waiting the arrival of products connected with the securing the loads, I wacked a couple of brass sides on a Hornby Thompson. This is the final carriage for a train who's working day started out heading north from Woodford. It did a handbrake turn at Nottingham, passed through Clem's neck of the woods, visited Grantham and had further adventures that day and the next in the west. Finally, it ended up back at Woodford ready to start all over again the next day.

 

 
I've been asked in the past how I do brass sides on donors vehicles but never had pictures before. I like to normally build a brass four sided box that the roof and ends of the doner carriage sits over. On this occasion I didn't have any brass ends, I still cut out most of the sides on the donner vehicle in the same way, I leave an area under the cornice and at the ends to attach the new sides this has to be cut back to accommodate the thickness of the brass.

 I can't be bothered fiddling around cutting out elaborate slots and leaving ugrights. I find that they don't really offer any support and generally  just get in the way. I find that you get a much firmer bond with less area of the original carriage to deal with. Even so, I reinforce the initial evo stik bond with the runny type of super glue carefully applied to fill the gaps. With most of the sides removed, it is so much easier to form an accurate tumblehome and get the carriage width correct with what remains, it also makes it much easier to fit other components such as glazing.

 

I reattached the body to the underframe, by chopping off half the end compartment from the interior moulding and mounting it to the rear wall of the carriage. A securing  bolt joins the two parts together via a nut secured to the compartment floor. 

 

 

The remaining section of compartments just drops in place and then the underframe goes on.

 

 

I also took the opportunity to replace an experimental roof that just didn't work. I was assured that skinning a scratch built roof, was much easier by laminating ten thou plasticard. It is not, it was flippin hard work, and the finish was acceptable but inferior. Over the space of a year, it seemed to me that it had deteriorated, so off it came. A new roof was constructed using my tried and tested methods.

 

The new roof resting in place on the carriage, the leading brake in the train mentioned above. Its a great fit and straight as a dye. It will be glued in place shortly and I can fit the cornice, rainstrip and destination board brackets, then it can be sent off to the paint shops.

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

14 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

I love the FEF.

 

 

I was thinking that a paperwork solution can often come to the rescue when photographs are not available. The traffic committee reports make for some fascinating reading. I've recently gone through a whole batch on wagon sheeting, there is a real tale to be told.

 

P.S. The driving wheels for the rambling black pig arrived today.

 

One time at Roy Jackson's place, Richard Hardy visited. He told the tale, which I may have recounted before, of a commotion at the real Retford during the war. He was in an office in the station building when somebody burst in, quite excitedly and said "Mr Hardy, I think you should come and look at this".

 

He went out and there was a B7 on a troop train. I wish I could remember exactly how many carriages it had but it was in the 30s. Fully loaded bogie stock too. The loco, after much effort, got it moving without assistance and he said the departure was a masterful bit of driving. Richard Hardy reckoned that the B7 may have been heavy on coal but put any loco over Woodhead on the heaviest trains and the coal consumption would be high. He said that if you gave any GCR loco crew a heavy train on a difficult route, every single one would ask for a B7 as the most reliable and powerful loco for the job.

 

It is lovely that some models will be appearing soon. Fine looking engines and sadly neglected by modellers until now.

[Headstock]

7 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

One time at Roy Jackson's place, Richard Hardy visited. He told the tale, which I may have recounted before, of a commotion at the real Retford during the war. He was in an office in the station building when somebody burst in, quite excitedly and said "Mr Hardy, I think you should come and look at this".

 

He went out and there was a B7 on a troop train. I wish I could remember exactly how many carriages it had but it was in the 30s. Fully loaded bogie stock too. The loco, after much effort, got it moving without assistance and he said the departure was a masterful bit of driving. Richard Hardy reckoned that the B7 may have been heavy on coal but put any loco over Woodhead on the heaviest trains and the coal consumption would be high. He said that if you gave any GCR loco crew a heavy train on a difficult route, every single one would ask for a B7 as the most reliable and powerful loco for the job.

 

It is lovely that some models will be appearing soon. Fine looking engines and sadly neglected by modellers until now.

 

A lovely story Tony, the B7 are a magnificent locomotive in my opinion, one of my all time favourites. If LSGC ever gets out again, the viewer will be treated to the sight of a B7 on the Manchester Marylebone mail, followed by a V2 on the York Bristol and a B16 on the York Woodford fast freight in quick succession.That is, unless they are to busy watching the activity in the loops and the yard

Edited July 28, 2020 by Headstock
add info.

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, t-b-g said:

With a GNR Atlantic, building a dead scale model is nigh on impossible unless you work in P4 and even then, the clearance between the driving wheels, shrunk down to 4mm scale, is almost nothing. So a slight increase in wheelbase or a slightly smaller wheel are almost unavoidable.

 

Both the Atlantic models featured above, in 2mm and 4mm scales look very nice indeed.

 

I do note that one has green splasher tops, the other black. One day, I will establish which one is right, or it could well be that both are. If both are, I would like to establish whether the difference is down to a date, a change in specification, a works, or whether the people in the paintshop that day thought they should be black or green because it didn't say which in the spec.

 

I am sure that many of my models contain dimensional errors that I know nothing about. Even the present model of Valour I am building has at least one that I do know about, which I am keeping quiet about because nobody other than me will ever tell. I spotted it too late to correct without major work and it stays!

 

I have never found an error such as a loco being 1mm or 2mm too long or short as being of any concern unless it is something that shows up badly if it is placed next to something else.

 

The things that bother me are the when something "doesn't look quite right" which is almost undefinable. It is usually a proportion, or a detail, or something that should line up with something else and doesn't, or something that you should be able to see and can't. A tender footplate and a loco footplate that should be at the same level and are not is one that often jumps out at me, or a footplate that is not level and slopes down at one end or the other. That is more common than many realise! Boiler handrails that are not parallel to the footplate when they should be is another.  

 

In the DJH Atlantic, for me that was the cylinders and the fact that the slidebars and piston tail rods should be tucked up under the footplate and are not. The other faults, like the overall height, might jump out if the loco is next to another one or pulling a train and it towers above the carriages but if they are faults that you have to measure to tell that they are wrong, I can usually live with that.

 

I once spent a long time making a GCR Q4 from a Millholme kit. I altered lots of parts and added much detail but if somebody now told me that it was 2mm too long or short, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.   

I would agree with all of that but it is possible to build GN Atlantics with scale wheelbase and wheel size - just remember that tyres normally have up to about 2" machined off during their life. I just build them with slightly worn tyres, having machined a bit off the diameter of the correct size wheels.

[MikeTrice]

33 minutes ago, Headstock said:

A new roof was constructed using my tried and tested methods.

Great post but what are your tried and tested methods please?

[Headstock]

28 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Great post but what are your tried and tested methods please?

 

Good afternoon Mike,

 

I did have a photo explanation to go with the caption but when I came to post it, I couldn't find it. I must have deleted it, as I still can't find it, I shall see if it is still on the camera and reprocess it, if not I may have to shoot it again and repost. There is a description with diagrams up thread, I will see if I can locate that.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Headstock

[APOLLO]

2 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

If I may interject at this point, the New York Central didn't build the Niagara class - they were built by Alco in 3 small classes, S1a, S1b and S2. 

 

There's a reason it has more than a passing resemblance to the more well-known Union Pacific FEF classes.

 

Correct - I should have wrote "had built". Most (but certainly not all) American railroads had locomotives made for them by outside contractors, Alco (American Locomotive Co), Baldwin, Lima etc. 

 

Brit15

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

I would agree with all of that but it is possible to build GN Atlantics with scale wheelbase and wheel size - just remember that tyres normally have up to about 2" machined off during their life. I just build them with slightly worn tyres, having machined a bit off the diameter of the correct size wheels.

 

Yes that is right and also how I would do it. It is only a problem if you try to fit scale 6ft 8" drivers with overscale flanges.

 

Valour is just the same, with no room between the wheels for brake hangers if you put full sized scale wheels in with overscale flanges.

 

I should have mentioned it as it is what I usually do in EM or OO. I usually go for a wheel that is correct over flange diameter, rather than a full sized tread plus a big flange.

 

I used the terminology as many people don't understand that a quoted wheel diameter was for a new wheel and that on the real thing, the actual diameter could be smaller.

 

Most people would say that putting a 6' 6" wheel on a loco that has a quoted diameter of 6' 8" is putting an under scale size wheel on. Those "in the know" understand that it is just on the scrap tolerance.

[Michael Edge]

Machining the tyre down looks better than using a smaller diameter wheel which would still have a full thickness tyre.

[Michael Edge]

I've not built many GN Atlantics since I've had digital photos but this is the last one.

This is 7mm scale with Slater's 6'8" driving wheels on the correct wheelbase. It's not easy to see with the footplate step in place but the wheels were machined down just enough for them not to touch. I've often wondered why this step was placed where it was, almost looks like an attempt to disguise just how close the wheels were, it isn't the best place to clmb up on to the framing.

[brightspark]

On 25/07/2020 at 21:56, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

Another DJH BR Standard Five. I can't recall the builder/painter of this, but he belongs to the Metropolitan Junction crew. It was brought and given a run on LB when the chaps visited last year. Though the group models mainly in EM, this one (obviously) is OO.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

 

I feel quite honored as two of my models have featured on Wright writes in just a few pages of each other.

 

The Standard 5 is mine and is (less obviously) EM...which is why it is sitting on a bit of EM track in the six foot of LB and of course couldn't be run.

For those interested this was my entry into the RM web Kitbuild challenge from way back in 2015. The link takes you to how I built this and my many diversions away from the printed instructions.

 

I also see that my S15 has also been mentioned. Some people have even read my ramblings and found them favorable.

 

I hope that you don't mind Tony, but here are a couple of quick snaps of the S15 that I took this evening. 838 now having a crew and (if I have pulled it off) a little bit of workmanlike dirt and sweat.

 

 

Andy Avis

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

I've not built many GN Atlantics since I've had digital photos but this is the last one.

This is 7mm scale with Slater's 6'8" driving wheels on the correct wheelbase. It's not easy to see with the footplate step in place but the wheels were machined down just enough for them not to touch. I've often wondered why this step was placed where it was, almost looks like an attempt to disguise just how close the wheels were, it isn't the best place to clmb up on to the framing.

 

A real beauty!

[t-b-g]

I mentioned Valour earlier and here is another illustration.

 

Really it is just so I can tell the world that as far as I know, the loco body is finished.

 

 

Unless anybody wants to tell me something I have missed off!

 

The buffers were only pushed in and won't be fitted properly until after painting.

 

Just a few little jobs on the frames to go (brakes, sandboxes, cylinder drain cocks and balance weights, disguising the axle ends and guides for the piston valves) and I might actually finish the first loco I have built for myself in many a long year.

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

If model railway exhibitions are of the agenda for a couple of years, there is always RM web. There is no doubt that the current situation will produce some negative and hidden effects on the Hobby. On a brighter note, perhaps an intermission may provide  the opportunity to produce better models for the future. I don't know if what I'm currently producing, will ever get the chance to run on the layout they are intended for, only time will tell. One thing is for sure, it will not stop me building. Anybody up for a B7?

 

What a shame about SNG, it needs rescuing from the green mould by locomotive rights campaigners. Surely the solution is to leave the loco as it is and repaint the stock!

Thanks Andrew,

 

'Surely the solution is to leave the loco as it is and repaint the stock!'

 

Into blue/grey - never! 

 

Apart from maroon, that's the only carriage colour scheme appropriate to SNG in the condition of the model. 

 

No; though I saw SNG as first-preserved, my abiding memory of her (him?) is of a vision of splendour, just ex-works from Donny Plant, ambling light-engine northwards through Retford, in sparkling Brunswick green - the best (no question) colour the A4s ever carried! It would be about 1958, so Ian Rathbone is going to repaint her 'just like that'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[LNER4479]

8 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I mentioned Valour earlier and here is another illustration.

 

Really it is just so I can tell the world that as far as I know, the loco body is finished.

 

... and what a body it is, too! Phwoar ...