Wright writes.....

[MJI]

24 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

In view of the recent conversations about how 'accurate' our layouts might be, particularly with regard to timescales and appropriate stock, I'd like to pose a question, please.

 

It involves this loco.............

 

 

 

It was built by our elder son, Tom as a teenager. Made from a Judith Edge kit, it's in EM gauge and, apart from few test track trips hasn't really run.

 

Now, here's the question. These Hunslet 0-6-0 diesel mechanicals were shedded at various locations, including depots in the Eastern Region and the North Eastern Region. Thus, could one ever have appeared at Retford? Perhaps to or from Doncaster Plant? 

 

It works beautifully and it would be a shame not to use it (when painted of course). 

 

Some were shedded on the ex-Furness system, so did they ever appear at Carlisle? (Mike Edge might know). 

 

I should also point out that it's one of the finest kits I've ever seen.

 

At one show, where Tom was demonstrating as a 'student modeller', one punter was quite dismissive of the model. When Tom asked why he didn't think much of it, the guy just stated that 'Your dad must have made it to be this good'. What an ignorant clot (or is that tautology?). My only involvement was to buy the wheels and motor/gearbox for him. I did nothing on it. 

 

 

 

 

How about a 3rd rail London Underground in blue layout?

 

Mike designed kits are good.

[robertcwp]

I have a semi-Retford-related question for the experts who follow this forum. 

 

Yeadon (OK I know he's not totally reliable) has A1 60114 in Doncaster for 'General' 6/3/57 to 5/4/57. 

 

Yeadon states that Doncaster applied the later BR emblems to tenders on shopping after April 1957 (although the new emblem had been launched publicly in 1956). This suggests that 60114 might have been a bit too early for the later emblem, as it was shopped in early March.

 

An Eric Treacy photo (hence no date or details of train, etc) shows 60114 at York on what appears to be the up Heart of Midlothian (without the headboard). 60114 has the earlier cycling lion emblem. The visible stock is mostly maroon, which did not appear to a significant extent on the ER until around September 1956. There is still full daylight (it would have been around 6.00 pm) and fairly lengthy shadows.

 

The visible stock suggests that the photo is from no later than the September 1957 timetable change.

 

The question is whether anyone knows when 60114 gained the later emblem.

 

Grateful for any suggestions.

 

The photo is in 'The Best of Eric Treacy' and may also be in other books, given the amount of duplication of his material that there is.

[Clive Mortimore]

59 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

In view of the recent conversations about how 'accurate' our layouts might be, particularly with regard to timescales and appropriate stock, I'd like to pose a question, please.

 

It involves this loco.............

 

 

 

It was built by our elder son, Tom as a teenager. Made from a Judith Edge kit, it's in EM gauge and, apart from few test track trips hasn't really run.

 

Now, here's the question. These Hunslet 0-6-0 diesel mechanicals were shedded at various locations, including depots in the Eastern Region and the North Eastern Region. Thus, could one ever have appeared at Retford? Perhaps to or from Doncaster Plant? 

 

It works beautifully and it would be a shame not to use it (when painted of course). 

 

Some were shedded on the ex-Furness system, so did they ever appear at Carlisle? (Mike Edge might know). 

 

I should also point out that it's one of the finest kits I've ever seen.

 

At one show, where Tom was demonstrating as a 'student modeller', one punter was quite dismissive of the model. When Tom asked why he didn't think much of it, the guy just stated that 'Your dad must have made it to be this good'. What an ignorant clot (or is that tautology?). My only involvement was to buy the wheels and motor/gearbox for him. I did nothing on it. 

 

 

Hello Tony

 

The low cab version which Tom has modelled were East Anglia based when new. About 1966/7 they were reallocated to various LMR sheds in the North West, only to be withdrawn soon afterwards. One did escape the mass deportation to the North West and ended up as an exile on the Isle of White and out lived its brothers.

 

The tall cab versions (there were two) were allocated to the NER and ScR. The Heljan model is suitable for a NER loco.

[LNER4479]

35 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I think a lot of potentially good exhibition layouts fail to meet expectations because operators do not have enough practice away from shows. Sometimes, this is because the layouts cannot be set up in full. It may also be because there is a lack of interest and willingness to invest time in practice sessions.

Practice and familiarity certainly helps! Clearly, a 'newbie' isn't going to pick up the workings of a complex layout right off the bat, even someone with experience of railway operating.

 

Can I offer another well-known ECML example into the mix? The O gauge GN mainline that is the layout of the Gainsborough Model Railway Society (including a depiction of Retford itself as one of the stations 'en route'). It is open for running days (well, in normal times that is!) at certain times of the year. On those days, the layout 'hums' according to an operating schedule, with practised operators in their (assumed) regular positions. I got the distinct impression last time I was there that some of them were 'big railway' signalmen (oops - 'signallers') on their day off! At other times, the society members meet, work on individual projects and - presumably - practice?

 

A 'model' for Retford, perhaps?

 

[Barry O]

Big problem with a layout like Retford is... too much practice and it can get "boring"..Operators need enough practice to operate the yards correctly (and few modellers seem to have a clue about that)  You can't just say "Shunt the yard" .. some operators will then do some fairly complex shunting operators, other may just change 3 wagons in a train.

 

So while a sequence of prototypical trains whizzing by is achievable by practice, very few people will try and undertake any shunting...

 

Baz

Edited August 2, 2020 by Barry O

[robertcwp]

10 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Practice and familiarity certainly helps! Clearly, a 'newbie' isn't going to pick up the workings of a complex layout right off the bat, even someone with experience of railway operating.

 

Can I offer another well-known ECML example into the mix? The O gauge GN mainline that is the layout of the Gainsborough Model Railway Society (including a depiction of Retford itself as one of the stations 'en route'). It is open for running days (well, in normal times that is!) at certain times of the year. On those days, the layout 'hums' according to an operating schedule, with practised operators in their (assumed) regular positions. I got the distinct impression last time I was there that some of them were 'big railway' signalmen (oops - 'signallers') on their day off! At other times, the society members meet, work on individual projects and - presumably - practice?

 

A 'model' for Retford, perhaps?

 

I have only seen the Gainsborough layout once and the operation was spectacular and clearly a well practised routine. 

 

It didn't impress me as much in other respects though as it didn't have the air of realism about it that the best layouts have. 

 

I don't need a sign to tell me that Grantham is a model of Grantham or Shap is a model of Shap. It's obvious instantly even though it's compressed. Similarly with Leicester South GC and a few others. 

 

I have had my layout, which is little more than a glorified train set, for 20 years. I still screw up the operation regularly even though I designed it, including the wiring and control panels. My main failing is not to normalise after each move. Every point and section has a normal setting so it should not be difficult. I don't have to worry about signals as they don't work and never will.

[jollysmart]

12 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I have only seen the Gainsborough layout once and the operation was spectacular and clearly a well practised routine. 

 

It didn't impress me as much in other respects though as it didn't have the air of realism about it that the best layouts have. 

 

I don't need a sign to tell me that Grantham is a model of Grantham or Shap is a model of Shap. It's obvious instantly even though it's compressed. Similarly with Leicester South GC and a few others. 

 

I have had my layout, which is little more than a glorified train set, for 20 years. I still screw up the operation regularly even though I designed it, including the wiring and control panels. My main failing is not to normalise after each move. Every point and section has a normal setting so it should not be difficult. I don't have to worry about signals as they don't work and never will.

 

I did go to the Gainsborough club during one of their weekly meets, actually with Roy who took me although I don't know if he was a member at that time, many long years ago and was invited to run one of their smaller boxes which I did as a novice and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the point seems to be that they were/are operation orientated and there was a fairly typical, for the time, broad brush approach to the layout. 

 

The operating session seemed to be the norm for the weekly meets but I have been back to their open days more recently and the standard of the layout and stock has improved immeasurably over the years. The recent upgrade of Kings Cross has certainly improved on what was there previously.

[t-b-g]

The Gainsborough O Gauge layout is a completely different animal to the sort of scale layouts we are talking about in 4mm scale.

 

Apart from the fact that when it was started, it was probably state of the art in model railway terms, it was always a layout for operating rather than being scale models of anywhere.

 

It also, if I am recalling correctly, gets run usually once a week. So doing it a few times a year in front of people isn't a problem.

 

Whether somebody gets bored running a layout is very much down to the individual and the layout.

 

If it is well designed and complex enough for interesting operation and the people involved are interested enough to want to run it properly, boredom doesn't become a problem. If people prefer to spend their modelling time at a workbench making things, with little interest in running them, then they will usually get bored after 5 minutes of proper operating. 

 

The present problems have put a temporary stop to the regular running sessions on Buckingham but having a friend or two round for a few hours once or twice a week for nearly 10 years hasn't bored us yet!

 

Running an interesting layout with good friends is one of the best aspects of the hobby for me. When you start at 7.30pm and you look at your watch "half an hour" later and it is 10.30 you know you have had a good time.

 

  

Edited August 2, 2020 by t-b-g
Spelling

[Tom F]

Had an enjoyable afternoon with these familiar gentlemen!
 

It should be said though, that ‘Sir’s’ presence was ever felt!

 

[Major Clanger]

22 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Andrew Hartsthorne had started the rodding at Babworth, but I don't mind carrying on.

 

I'd be delighted were Andrew to be involved again. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony,

 

Some comments on various aspects of Retford:

 

Point rodding - I started with the "easiest" set, at Babworth. That to the north of the box is finished, as are the signal wires. I started the southward runs but couldn't go any further until the gantry is installed, as the west end post baseplate and the rods will be fighting for space. Once the gantry's in, I'd love to carry on. I didn't move elsewhere as none of the rodding at the other boxes ought to be started until the permanent platforms are installed, to prevent the fairly serious woodwork and climbing about required from damaging it. I also started the cattle market area - all the metal pens are in, but none of the wooden ones yet. I couldn't decide whether 3D printing would be the way forward, or to just make them from wood like the real thing.

 

Telegraph poles - a prototype pole was produced, made from two Airfix tops glued together to give the right number of crossbars, mounted on a piece of brass tube to give the height. It might still be kicking around somewhere. Again, 3D printing might be the best way forward here.

 

GC fiddle yard - a few more trains could be accommodated here without any rebuilding, as some of the roads are appreciably longer than the trains currently in them. They could be split electrically like the six centre roads in the GN yard.

 

Operating - I have had my thoughts on this in the past, as Tony Gee is well aware. One thing I will say in relation to another layout mentioned in the thread - I have seen it in operation, it looked very professional, but none of the "underlings" looked like they were having fun, and the fat controller seemed a bit officious.

[robertcwp]

41 minutes ago, jollysmart said:

 

I did go to the Gainsborough club during one of their weekly meets, actually with Roy who took me although I don't know if he was a member at that time, many long years ago and was invited to run one of their smaller boxes which I did as a novice and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the point seems to be that they were/are operation orientated and there was a fairly typical, for the time, broad brush approach to the layout. 

 

The operating session seemed to be the norm for the weekly meets but I have been back to their open days more recently and the standard of the layout and stock has improved immeasurably over the years. The recent upgrade of Kings Cross has certainly improved on what was there previously.

In fairness, I must have seen the Gainsborough layout around 8 or 9 years ago and it has doubtless moved on since then. It was an LNER Society visit, which Roy also attended even though he was not a member (that is a whole other story). 

[Tony Wright]

23 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

Tony,

 

Some comments on various aspects of Retford:

 

Point rodding - I started with the "easiest" set, at Babworth. That to the north of the box is finished, as are the signal wires. I started the southward runs but couldn't go any further until the gantry is installed, as the west end post baseplate and the rods will be fighting for space. Once the gantry's in, I'd love to carry on. I didn't move elsewhere as none of the rodding at the other boxes ought to be started until the permanent platforms are installed, to prevent the fairly serious woodwork and climbing about required from damaging it. I also started the cattle market area - all the metal pens are in, but none of the wooden ones yet. I couldn't decide whether 3D printing would be the way forward, or to just make them from wood like the real thing.

 

Telegraph poles - a prototype pole was produced, made from two Airfix tops glued together to give the right number of crossbars, mounted on a piece of brass tube to give the height. It might still be kicking around somewhere. Again, 3D printing might be the best way forward here.

 

GC fiddle yard - a few more trains could be accommodated here without any rebuilding, as some of the roads are appreciably longer than the trains currently in them. They could be split electrically like the six centre roads in the GN yard.

 

Operating - I have had my thoughts on this in the past, as Tony Gee is well aware. One thing I will say in relation to another layout mentioned in the thread - I have seen it in operation, it looked very professional, but none of the "underlings" looked like they were having fun, and the fat controller seemed a bit officious.

Thanks Andrew,

 

That's wonderful news that you're prepared to carry on with Retford. 

 

As I've said, there's so much work of others present that it would be a sin to have it just abandoned. 

 

I hope the 'other' layout you mention wasn't anything to do with me, though you might have seen my 'bossing' when Stoke Summit and/or Charwelton were at shows. I admit to being officious there, though we had loads of fun............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

25 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

Operating - I have had my thoughts on this in the past, as Tony Gee is well aware. One thing I will say in relation to another layout mentioned in the thread - I have seen it in operation, it looked very professional, but none of the "underlings" looked like they were having fun, and the fat controller seemed a bit officious.

Such controllers often are. 

 

Sandra is most certainly not the fat controller!

 

By the way - did I read somewhere that the Rev W Awdry stories have been rewritten to make them more politically correct and that the Fat Controller is no longer referred to as such?

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

Big problem with a layout like Retford is... too much practice and it can get "boring"..Operators need enough practice to operate the yards correctly (and few modellers seem to have a clue about that)  You can't just say "Shunt the yard" .. some operators will then do some fairly complex shunting operators, other may just change 3 wagons in a train.

 

So while a sequence of prototypical trains whizzing by is achievable by practice, very few people will try and undertake any shunting...

 

Baz

I would not know where to start trying to do shunting on Retford. It took me long enough to work out how to do it on Harton Gill.

 

I think most people would have to work pretty hard to get bored with Retford. 

 

I designed my own layout for interest of operation and am not the slightest bit bored with it 20 years later. It's showing its age a bit though.

[Tony Wright]

Some time ago I presented a DVD featuring the vast Gainsborough Society's layout.

 

It was hugely exciting, but I found the standards rather mixed.

 

At least everything ran, but rather too quickly in some circumstances. It's a feature of making DVDs of layouts that trains always seem to be travelling faster on a screen than in reality. These fairly flew!

[Tony Wright]

Returning to model railway operation.

 

On a personal level, I derive little enjoyment from operating Little Bytham by myself (that's why it's hardly been used in the last few months). The layout only comes to life when mates operate it, and I've missed their presence a great deal. 

 

However, with social distancing firmly observed, two chums are popping over tomorrow and Bytham will be run again. 

 

I'll report accordingly. 

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

 

So while a sequence of prototypical trains whizzing by is achievable by practice, very few people will try and undertake any shunting...

 

Baz

Well one of the busiest sections of the layout on running days was Babworth goods yard, often run by a couple of contributors here. Getting the inbound and outbound loco coal across the main lines was one of the interesting moves that I liked watching and had a go at once or twice. 
 

Like @t-b-g I’d often suggested to Roy the traffic flow could be improved with a bit more currency from the operators. A conundrum was that Roy obviously enjoyed teaching people how to run trains, and set them up, but didn’t see the potential that practice could give.

[Tony Wright]

41 minutes ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

Had an enjoyable afternoon with these familiar gentlemen!
 

It should be said though, that ‘Sir’s’ presence was ever felt!

 

It's me to a tee, Tom.

 

That lazy posture, the paunch which for over 60 years was never there and the total lack of elegance in dress-sense! 

 

Well done with the painting of 'me' by the way.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tom F]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

It's me to a tee, Tom.

 

That lazy posture, the paunch which for over 60 years was never there and the total lack of elegance in dress-sense! 

 

Well done with the painting of 'me' by the way.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

It is spot on isn’t it! @jwealleans and I were discussing where we should pose you.

 

I can’t claim credit for the painting however, that was the ever talented Claudia Everett.

[Tom F]

27 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Such controllers often are. 

 

Sandra is most certainly not the fat controller!

 

By the way - did I read somewhere that the Rev W Awdry stories have been rewritten to make them more politically correct and that the Fat Controller is no longer referred to as such?

The original books are untouched ‘thankfully’....more likely the awful TV series that has amended things. I was admiring some of my first editions the other day.

 

Oh to have grown up in the 1950s!

 

I just ordered a copy of ‘Tootles the Taxi’ (anyone else familiar with it) illustrated by the same artist of Awdry’s books 12-17. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey

[Major Clanger]

26 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I hope the 'other' layout you mention wasn't anything to do with me, though you might have seen my 'bossing' when Stoke Summit and/or Charwelton were at shows. I admit to being officious there, though we had loads of fun............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Definitely not! Do you even have underlings?

[Northmoor]

2 minutes ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

The original books are untouched ‘thankfully’....more likely the awful TV series that have amended things. 

Actually the original books had some very minor edits over the years.

 

I have an early copy of the edition including the story of the boys who tried to drop stones down the chimney or threw them at the loco crew. They later get "blackened" by a loco crew who got their revenge and blasted the bridge on which the boys stood, with soot.  The original phrase, describing how black the boys were afterwards, used a racial term which is thankfully no longer acceptable in society.

[jollysmart]

31 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

In fairness, I must have seen the Gainsborough layout around 8 or 9 years ago and it has doubtless moved on since then. It was an LNER Society visit, which Roy also attended even though he was not a member (that is a whole other story). 

 

I'm talking about visiting in 1970/1 (I think) so it has moved on massively since then but I doubt that Roy was a member although, as always, he knew everyone there. It made a change from working on Gainsborough Central in Roy's loft.

[bbishop]

8 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Just my thoughts re modelling exact locations and dates -

 

 

 

I remember reading in an American model mag quite some years ago about one layout where the owner decided the layout date was (more or less) 50 years ago, so that as his layout aged the period modeled also advanced one year. His layout went from all steam to all diesel over ten or so actual years. Not just locos but stock, signalling etc was modernised, track layout rationalised etc over the years. This layout featured regularly and it was always interesting to compare photos etc to see what he had changed over the year. This layout also caused a bit of controversy in the readers letters section !!

 

How about it Tony, 1957 ? - Re-crest your locos, scrap the old ones, get rid of blood & custard, out with the old Gresley stock, close the M&GN, tear down that magnificent bridge. You need 22 Deltics to replace all your Pacifics all with sound howling away as well as Brush 4's, Peaks and Big D's (40's). In a few years you can have last runs with your old steamers in cavalcades off to Doncaster & Sheffield for scrap - be sure to remove name and number plates and heavily weather them. In 7 years time introduce Blue & Grey XP64 stock, start to paint your locos banger Blue, and perhaps one day we will see catenary going up !!!

(Sorry Tony - even I know the above is absolute sacrilege !!)

 

Brit15

There is a modicum of stock for Spur Null (German O Gauge) in the mid 50s to mid 60s window -  and practically nothing else.  Move me a decade either way and there would be no stock!   Bill

[Tony Wright]

42 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

 

Definitely not! Do you even have underlings?

I hope not.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.