Wright writes.....

[robertcwp]

9 hours ago, PMP said:

There is already at least one electromagnetic uncoupling point to remove a van as tail traffic. It was quite reliable, however the distances involved for the driver to see the accurate position of the train to uncouple was in the order of 12ft if not more, so difficult to get a high reliability on it.
I’d strongly suggest not  trying to attach lamps to traffic on the scenic sections, due to the potential for damage to occur to signals/buildings/passing traffic etc and the impracticality of trying to get a lamp onto a pin at arms length or more. There’s also the potential for a dropped lamp to cause derailments.  A more practical solution would be to have lamps fitted to both the rear coach and the tail traffic, (or neither) and put up with the discrepancy. The three links overall work ok on the layout as it was operated, but if more coupling moves are required, auto couplings are worth investigating. I use Dinghams and they are discreet and use the buffer beam hook mounting slot.

I wasn't thinking of actually attaching lamps etc. I have seen this done on exhibition layouts and it's too fiddly. So, you either have lamps in both places or accept that at some point a train will run without a tail lamp. On my layout, which has a terminus, the sets have lamps at both ends except parcels stock, which is generally loose and does not currently have lamps, although this may change in future. 

 

I have no experience of Dinghams but I believe they are less obtrusive than S&W. On the other hand, I believe some stock on Retford already has S&W.

 

Magnet positions can be marked. I use permanent magnets on my layout. There is usually a spot of white paint on the end of a sleeper, which can be seen at a distance of 12'. Under the roof, I tried paint on the platforms but then found that a strategically placed person holding or carrying something was a better marker.

[robertcwp]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I didn't take a huge amount of notice of what/which stock was in the GN fiddle yard last week, though there used to be (probably still is) a Kitchen/Second twin in the 'West Riding', as well as a TO/BTO (SO/BSO in 1957).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I hoping to be able to do a full check on what coaching stock is there when I visit (COVID permitting). 

 

There was a West Riding set, with two twins and a Mark 1 FO in between, as per the prototype. It was an all-maroon set on the layout. I have not managed to find a 1957 photo to confirm an all-maroon set but have seen one showing the north end of the train, and it was maroon by Spring 1957. There should also be a maroon twin first in the Talisman and I believe Roy had the Silver Jubilee RTS in crimson and cream.

[Atso]

18 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Which brings me along to the fact that today (in the main) most model railways are 'historic'. When I were a lad (along with countless hundreds of thousands of others), my train set reflected what I saw for real. In no way was it historic (or realistic), and as the first diesel-outline models became available, they appeared alongside traditional steam. It seems to me there are far fewer youngsters putting together train sets reflecting what is currently the scene on our railways. If anything, they're following the dross they saw of late on the telly - the total opposite of realism. Even though I admit my boyhood train set was unrealistic, it never had knights of old, rocket ships, aliens or dinosaurs all over it!

Good morning Tony,

 

I think it is fair to say that everyone's modelling journey will be different and develop in different ways. To me, it is great to see younger people building layouts and enjoying the hobby in whatever form. The fact that the 'dross' on the telly has inspired them to have a go is, in my opinion, only a good thing and represents the start of their respective journeys, not the potential shape of them once their journey reaches its maturity. In ten years time, many of these newcomers will have lost interest, others will still enjoy the hobby in (to them) its original form, some will have developed it in ways I cannot imagine and a few will have taken an interest in the real railways and chosen to model them (either historic or contemporary).

If knights of old, rocket ships, aliens, dinosaurs, or any other item inspires a new generation to start pursuing railway modelling as a hobby and help support the wider hobby and trade, then that is alright with me.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Atso

[Tony Wright]

54 minutes ago, Atso said:

Good morning Tony,

 

I think it is fair to say that everyone's modelling journey will be different and develop in different ways. To me, it is great to see younger people building layouts and enjoying the hobby in whatever form. The fact that the 'dross' on the telly has inspired them to have a go is, in my opinion, only a good thing and represents the start of their respective journeys, not the potential shape of them once their journey reaches its maturity. In ten years time, many of these newcomers will have lost interest, others will still enjoy the hobby in (to them) its original form, some will have developed it in ways I cannot imagine and a few will have taken an interest in the real railways and chosen to model them (either historic or contemporary).

If knights of old, rocket ships, aliens, dinosaurs, or any other item inspires a new generation to start pursuing railway modelling as a hobby and help support the wider hobby and trade, then that is alright with me.

Good morning Steve,

 

If the TV series did inspire some to take up railway modelling, then I'm not going to argue with the merit of that. 

 

However (always an 'however'), I can't see that interest lasting more than a short time, because nowhere did I see an attempt to 'educate' folk in the disciplines of actual railway modelling. 

 

I know this has been discussed before, and it's probably best to let it 'die' naturally, but nowhere were the cornerstones of diligent research, observation of the prototype, the value of spending time (often lots of it) and the aim of producing something which looked like the real thing ever mentioned. It was just a mass of gimmicks, built-in jeopardy, arguments and rushing through something against the tyranny of time. If newcomers think that's the way to go in building a model railway, then, please, stop the world and let me off!

 

Regards,

 

A grumpy old git! 

[Major Clanger]

A start had been made on fitting Sprat & Winkles to trains requiring to shunt, but some tweaking was still required, particularly to the newspaper train, as this had a tendency to divide on curves. There is also a mystery to the prototype operation of this train. It is advertised in the public timetable as a passenger train. When it arrives at Retford, it is required to back from the up platform to the up yard to detach or attach (possibly both), over a points that do not have a lock. Did all the passengers (probably not very many at 0430) have to get off? Were the points clipped and padlocked? Were blind eyes turned? I suggested to Roy that the train stayed in the platform and a shunting engine did the work, but the old railwaymen he had talked to said this was not the case, as no shunters had yet come off the shed at this time. Any ideas, anyone?

 

Lamps - pins are not required. Use tiny neodymium magnets instead. The hand of God will be involved though.

[St Enodoc]

7 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

Lamps - pins are not required. Use tiny neodymium magnets instead. The hand of God will be involved though.

Yes, with staples for the irons. 1.5mm x 1.5mm cylindrical magnets do the job nicely (as they do for headlamps too, of course).

[robertcwp]

6 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

A start had been made on fitting Sprat & Winkles to trains requiring to shunt, but some tweaking was still required, particularly to the newspaper train, as this had a tendency to divide on curves. There is also a mystery to the prototype operation of this train. It is advertised in the public timetable as a passenger train. When it arrives at Retford, it is required to back from the up platform to the up yard to detach or attach (possibly both), over a points that do not have a lock. Did all the passengers (probably not very many at 0430) have to get off? Were the points clipped and padlocked? Were blind eyes turned? I suggested to Roy that the train stayed in the platform and a shunting engine did the work, but the old railwaymen he had talked to said this was not the case, as no shunters had yet come off the shed at this time. Any ideas, anyone?

 

Lamps - pins are not required. Use tiny neodymium magnets instead. The hand of God will be involved though.

On bogie stock, I mount the S&W couplings on the bogies so they pivot. It means removing the buffer beam between the buffers though.

 

This train has S&W throughout. What you can't see in the video clip is that it runs wrong line through my fiddleyard over reverse curves and crossovers, including the inside of Peco curved points on a 2' 6" radius. It remains coupled and on the track! More of the vans have been dirtied up a bit since this was taken. I have a lot of stock to get through.

 

[robertcwp]

3 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Yes, with staples for the irons. 1.5mm x 1.5mm cylindrical magnets do the job nicely (as they do for headlamps too, of course).

Haven't tried that. I have tried drilling a small hole in the lamp and putting a very small piece of Black Tack (not blu-tac) in. This seems to work reasonably well too.

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I wonder whether Hornby would ever consider the LNER steamliners, Robert.

 

I rather doubt it, despite the survivors lasting well into the BR maroon period.

 

From photographic evidence, it would seem that the stock ran (for a short period) in its original colours in early BR days, but never again as dedicated sets. 

 

There are a few ex-streamliners currently on Retford, some awaiting completion, including a RTO/RBT (is that the right description?); odd, because I think these ran in Scotland post-War.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Doubt it ?? answer who knows?? only Hornby .

 

If Hornby think they can sell them then yes. They have produced all the Locos in all liveries , that suit them . If Bachmann can sell £300 Pullman (if they have sold?)  sets then perhaps yes.

 

W1 and Thompson Pacifics would never sell !!! , is a perfect example.

[Headstock]

Going back to when the thread was about making things for yourself. Surely a layout like Retford has the talent in droves to build this sort of stuff and not be reliant on Hornby wishlisting?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Headstock
autocorrect altered back.

[jamie92208]

52 minutes ago, Major Clanger said:

A start had been made on fitting Sprat & Winkles to trains requiring to shunt, but some tweaking was still required, particularly to the newspaper train, as this had a tendency to divide on curves. There is also a mystery to the prototype operation of this train. It is advertised in the public timetable as a passenger train. When it arrives at Retford, it is required to back from the up platform to the up yard to detach or attach (possibly both), over a points that do not have a lock. Did all the passengers (probably not very many at 0430) have to get off? Were the points clipped and padlocked? Were blind eyes turned? I suggested to Roy that the train stayed in the platform and a shunting engine did the work, but the old railwaymen he had talked to said this was not the case, as no shunters had yet come off the shed at this time. Any ideas, anyone?

 

Lamps - pins are not required. Use tiny neodymium magnets instead. The hand of God will be involved though.

A search of the sectional appendix may provide the answer. On Long Preston, my previous layout, I wondered how cattle wagons were worked into the cattle dock as the entrance points were beyond the advance starter and technically in Hellifield North's territory. A retired signalman gave me the answer. Vans of Cattle from Dingwall apparently  arrived as tail traffic on the last local from Carlisle. The train was then signalled out to Hellifield but stopped beyond the points where a porter would then work the ground frame that was unlocked by a wire from the box. The train then reversed unto the cattle dock and the vans were detached. It then departed for Hellifield, all moves with passengers on board. Somthing similar may have happenned in your example.

 

Jamie

 

 

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I wasn't thinking of actually attaching lamps etc. I have seen this done on exhibition layouts and it's too fiddly. So, you either have lamps in both places or accept that at some point a train will run without a tail lamp. On my layout, which has a terminus, the sets have lamps at both ends except parcels stock, which is generally loose and does not currently have lamps, although this may change in future. 

 

I have no experience of Dinghams but I believe they are less obtrusive than S&W. On the other hand, I believe some stock on Retford already has S&W.

 

Magnet positions can be marked. I use permanent magnets on my layout. There is usually a spot of white paint on the end of a sleeper, which can be seen at a distance of 12'. Under the roof, I tried paint on the platforms but then found that a strategically placed person holding or carrying something was a better marker.

 

There were a couple of attaching and detaching moves in the sequence at Retford where the view of the train was limited to a bit of the vehicle roof. The view of platform 1 was blocked by the canopy on platforms 2 and 3. The same applies in platform 2, trying to add or detach vehicle there. To add a van, you had to bring a train in and stop it exactly the length of the van ahead of the magnet that you couldn't see.

 

When you had trains of different lengths and vans of different lengths, an easy marking system doesn't work.

 

I am sure there is nothing that can't be sorted out but sadly it wasn't as easy as a simple magnet marker on the track.

 

The ideal solution was a coupling that would work "on the move" like an Alex Jackson. Some were fitted but working 99% of the time wasn't good enough for Roy. He wanted 100% and rightly so.

 

The fitting and fettling of S&W couplings was still underway when he fell ill. I wasn't going regularly at that time so I don't know what the plans were for placing magnets etc. but I know a man who does.

 

No doubt it will be mastered eventually. 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by t-b-g
To add content

[Headstock]

On 28/07/2020 at 16:02, MikeTrice said:

Great post but what are your tried and tested methods please?

 

Good morning Mike,

 

apologies for the protracted reply, the thread moves fast but I have finished the roof. Unfortunately, I seem to have accidentally deleted the original roof folder, however I did find two images that illustrate the basic idea. You can see there is a base plate, cut out to access the interior, A set of transverse formers, that conform to the end profile and a set of longitudinal strengtheners, some out of site, The roof frame is laid on it's back and tack glued to a sheet of 20 thou plasticard and left to dry. The sheet is wrapped around the transverse sections, glueing as you go and attached to the base plate. You need excess sheet to get a good grip and hold it in place while the glue drys. The excess is then cut of and the process of filing of the remainder is in progress in the first image. You can see that I was able to salvage the original transverse pieces from the original roof.

 

 

The end profile buts up to the brass end of the carriage.

 

 

A couple of coats of undercoat are applied and rubbed down to get a smooth finish and the roof is attached to the carriage.

 

 

The finished roof, painted, gubbins attached and cornice and ends retouched in.

 

 

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Mike,

 

apologies for the protracted reply, the thread moves fast but I have finished the roof. Unfortunately, I seem to have accidentally deleted the original roof folder, however I did find two images that illustrate the basic idea. You can see there is a base plate, cut out to access the interior, A set of transverse formers, that conform to the end profile and a set of longitudinal strengtheners, some out of site, The roof frame is laid on it's back and tack glued to a sheet of 20 thou plasticard and left to dry. The sheet is wrapped around the transverse sections, glueing as you go and attached to the base plate. You need excess sheet to get a good grip and hold it in place while the glue drys. The excess is then cut of and the process of filing of the remainder is in progress in the first image. You can see that I was able to salvage the original transverse pieces from the original roof.

 

 

The end profile buts up to the brass end of the carriage.

 

 

A couple of coats of undercoat are applied and rubbed down to get a smooth finish and the roof is attached to the carriage.

 

 

The finished roof, painted, gubbins attached and cornice and ends retouched in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The like button isn't enough! What a great model of a lovely prototype.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I may have posted this before, don't remember, but Post war pictures of the Coronation, still in blue and what of the Loco !

 

manna

[robertcwp]

50 minutes ago, Headstock said:

Going back to when the thread was about making things for yourself. Surly a layout like Retford has the talent in droves to build this sort of stuff and not be reliant on Hornby wishlisting?

I didn't meant to suggest that such things are dependent on Hornby et al. My posting was about applying Rule 1 and having trains out of period and a musing about what I would do were a proper RTR Coronation to appear (I discount the Golden Age toy). For me, the answer is a no-brainer. Just as with the Coronation Scot, of course I would buy a complete train. 

 

Annoyingly, I had some Mailcoach kits for Coronation twins and sold them at least 20 years ago as I saw no prospect of ever needing them. Now, the kits are no longer available and I'm not aware of any others for the Coronation twins (grateful for any advice here). I would like a twin-first to complete another Talisman train (I have the RF and SO, the other carriages are available RTR). I would also like a restaurant/second twin for the King's Cross-Glasgow train if there is not one on Retford already. 

[robertcwp]

10 minutes ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

I may have posted this before, don't remember, but Post war pictures of the Coronation, still in blue and what of the Loco !

 

manna

This was one of the RT/BTO twins used for supper service on the up Aberdonian sleeper. Most of the ex-streamliner stock was restored to service in 1948 and was repainted in pre-war colours but without the individual train branding. Crimson and cream livery was not introduced until 1949 and the three ex-West Riding Limited twins that went into the post-war West Riding carried crimson and cream as the train was one of those that launched the livery in service. 

[Headstock]

13 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I didn't meant to suggest that such things are dependent on Hornby et al. My posting was about applying Rule 1 and having trains out of period and a musing about what I would do were a proper RTR Coronation to appear (I discount the Golden Age toy). For me, the answer is a no-brainer. Just as with the Coronation Scot, of course I would buy a complete train. 

 

Annoyingly, I had some Mailcoach kits for Coronation twins and sold them at least 20 years ago as I saw no prospect of ever needing them. Now, the kits are no longer available and I'm not aware of any others for the Coronation twins (grateful for any advice here). I would like a twin-first to complete another Talisman train (I have the RF and SO, the other carriages are available RTR). I would also like a restaurant/second twin for the King's Cross-Glasgow train if there is not one on Retford already. 

 

Good morning Robert,

 

It would make sense to produce a set of etches for the streamlined stock, I don't think that a whole kit would be required, sides and ends would do. Everything else is available, or could very simply be scratch built. Again, I'm sure that the talent exist within the Retford team to do something of this nature and would be of great interest to many.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Headstock
add word

[Headstock]

5 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

This was one of the RT/BTO twins used for supper service on the up Aberdonian sleeper. Most of the ex-streamliner stock was restored to service in 1948 and was repainted in pre-war colours but without the individual train branding. Crimson and cream livery was not introduced until 1949 and the three ex-West Riding Limited twins that went into the post-war West Riding carried crimson and cream as the train was one of those that launched the livery in service. 

 

Crimson and cream, with Master Cutler implementation and shiny metal bits.

[robertcwp]

10 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Robert,

 

It would make sense to produce a set of etches for the streamlined stock, I don't think that a whole kit would be required, sides and ends would do. Everything else is available, or could very simply be scratch built. Again, I'm sure that the talent exist within the Retford team to do something of this nature and would be of great interest to many.

That thought had crossed my mind too.

[PMP]

42 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

There were a couple of attaching and detaching moves in the sequence at Retford where the view of the train was limited to a bit of the vehicle roof. The view of platform 1 was blocked by the canopy on platforms 2 and 3. The same applies in platform 2, trying to add or detach vehicle there. To add a van, you had to bring a train in and stop it exactly the length of the van ahead of the magnet that you couldn't see.

 

When you had trains of different lengths and vans of different lengths, an easy marking system doesn't work.

 

I am sure there is nothing that can't be sorted out but sadly it wasn't as easy as a simple magnet marker on the track.

 

The ideal solution was a coupling that would work "on the move" like an Alex Jackson. Some were fitted but working 99% of the time wasn't good enough for Roy. He wanted 100% and rightly so.

 

The fitting and fettling of S&W couplings was still underway when he fell ill. I wasn't going regularly at that time so I don't know what the plans were for placing magnets etc. but I know a man who does.

 

No doubt it will be mastered eventually. 

 

 

 

It was a 'difficult' move as I recall for the issues you mentioned above in addition the parallax effect with operators getting different views from essentially the same position. I'd suggested trying out the Dinghams with rewheeled stock of mine but we never got round to it. Somewhere in my archives I think I've got some pics of that move, I'll have a look.

[LNER4479]

18 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

This was one of the RT/BTO twins used for supper service on the up Aberdonian sleeper. 

Hello Robert,

 

Any idea how it got back to Aberdeen, if not attached to the corresponding down working? I've previously tried to fathom this out, to no avail. Of interest to me as my Dad models this train on his Aberdeen layout and I have previously 'threatened' to build this twin for him! As a related question, would the catering crew have stayed with the vehicles or made their way back 'on the cushions'? Or maybe it was an Edinburgh-based working, with the vehicles / crew making their way to Aberdeen in the afternoon?

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

Going back to when the thread was about making things for yourself. Surly a layout like Retford has the talent in droves to build this sort of stuff and not be reliant on Hornby wishlisting?

 

 

If there's an adequate quality RTR product that fits the bill is matched appropriately with weathering/detailing etc, and someone is happy to donate/loan it, why not utilise it? It was done on the layout in the past. If Roy had built all the mark one stock for example, I suggest that many other coaches/locomotives and tasks might not have been built due to time constraints.

[Headstock]

6 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

That thought had crossed my mind too.

 

The West Riding is an obvious starting point. I'm not totally up to speed with its formation in 1957. On its introduction, it was rather big and beautiful, with the Thompson stock complimenting the twins rather well. I assume some of the twins survived in the late fifties?

[Headstock]

1 minute ago, PMP said:

 

 

If there's an adequate quality RTR product that fits the bill is matched appropriately with weathering/detailing etc, and someone is happy to donate/loan it, why not utilise it? It was done on the layout in the past. If Roy had built all the mark one stock for example, I suggest that many other coaches/locomotives and tasks might not have been built due to time constraints.

 

You would have to wishlist it for a couple of years first.