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Tony Wright

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7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

So it was nothing to do with the Viessmanns after all?

I think it has a lot to do with the Viessmans, John,

 

One thing that Graham Nicholas and I have found with the devices is that they're rather weak. None of the signals is stiff. By that, I mean the mechanisms are sweet and free (they've been built by Graham and Mick Nicholson, after all - two top signal-makers). They also work like real signals as well - on some bracket signals I've seen, there are no cranks - just right-angle bends in some stiff wire (like Hornby-Dublo and Tri-ang used to do). Now, even with the best-made mechanisms, there's going to be mechanical resistance - friction. There is in every working thing I've ever made.

 

Let me describe an analogy, please? Whenever I make a loco chassis, I never oil it until I'm happy with the way it runs. Once happy, I then lightly oil the moving parts. It's immediately quieter and smoother, and then will run-in to make it even-sweeter. The analogy is, I don't oil the chassis beforehand, and the motor burns out! Immediately. 

 

No, I assure you, the Viessmans needed more than oil before they'd properly work again (I didn't oil the actual motors). I've seen how Graham installed them and, after I'd oiled the mechanisms, I just 'wiggled' the motors until they worked again. And then they'd still stick again (two of them). 

 

At least the electronic 'safety' devices now prevent the motors from actually burning out. Prior to this, out of the original nine Veissmans installed, ten have 'cooked' - not every individual one; one signal's motor had burnt out twice - and Graham has valiantly replaced them. 

 

When you ask if it had nothing to do with the Viessman motors, you might ask that same question to Andrew Hartsthorne at Wizard.MSE/Comet Models. He gave Graham Nicholas a pile of burnt-out ones at Stevenage last year. They'd been returned as being  'faulty'. As far as I know, he no longer stocks them. He thought that among the duds (it's always just one pole which fails), Graham might be able to make a good one out of two.

 

I wonder whether we're asking the product to do something it's not designed for - operating hand-made signals? As far as I know, they're designed for working continental-style RTP signals, which, I assume, don't have cranks for operating bracket signals (though it's not just the bracket ones which have failed on LB). I know they have to be altered slightly to work British semaphores (a loop put into the operating wire, which immediately invalidates any guarantee).

 

Graham uses them on Grantham, and, prior to the installation of the 'protectors', has had some fail.

 

The irony is, when they work, the visual operation is beautifully-smooth - the arms go 'off' slowly and go 'on' faster. 

 

From my experience, servos are the complete opposite. If a signal has any stiffness or resistance to movement, the servos don't care at all. If necessary, they'll wreck the sticky signal! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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5 minutes ago, richard i said:

You could also add, how many current teachers want to give up teaching and become model makers. Actually I could have just stopped with the first half of that sentence. I for one think most are looking for a route out because of the ever changing goal posts and raised expectations of what can be achieved in a day by one person. 
it is interesting just how many teachers/ ex teachers there are in the hobby. Is there a correlation between choice of profession and choice of hobby?

richard 

Good morning Richard,

 

Good to see you all again (from a distance) on Friday. 

 

One of the things I found when I abandoned teaching in 1994 was the erosion of 'discipline' in the classroom, where some lessons (not mine) were being wrecked by kids 'beyond control'. As a union rep', we set up a 'tunnel committee' to enable teachers to 'escape' to other, less-stressful careers. What was ghastly was the number of teachers I knew of whose mental health was effectively 'destroyed' by the stress of the job.

 

Were all the kids I taught as well-behaved, well-mannered and respectful as your three boys, I might have retired from the profession after 40 years' service, and never built a model for money in my life.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

P.S. Many of the clergy seem interested in railways. 

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33 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Living away from home for 4 or 5 days a week was not good.

How right you are. I was doing that for 3 years until March. Thankfully, no more.

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15 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I think it has a lot to do with the Viessmans, John,

 

One thing that Graham Nicholas and I have found with the devices is that they're rather weak. None of the signals is stiff. By that, I mean the mechanisms are sweet and free (they've been built by Graham and Mick Nicholson, after all - two top signal-makers). They also work like real signals as well - on some bracket signals I've seen, there are no cranks - just right-angle bends in some stiff wire (like Hornby-Dublo and Tri-ang used to do). Now, even with the best-made mechanisms, there's going to be mechanical resistance - friction. There is in every working thing I've ever made.

 

Let me describe an analogy, please? Whenever I make a loco chassis, I never oil it until I'm happy with the way it runs. Once happy, I then lightly oil the moving parts. It's immediately quieter and smoother, and then will run-in to make it even-sweeter. The analogy is, I don't oil the chassis beforehand, and the motor burns out! Immediately. 

 

No, I assure you, the Viessmans needed more than oil before they'd properly work again (I didn't oil the actual motors). I've seen how Graham installed them and, after I'd oiled the mechanisms, I just 'wiggled' the motors until they worked again. And then they'd still stick again (two of them). 

 

At least the electronic 'safety' devices now prevent the motors from actually burning out. Prior to this, out of the original nine Veissmans installed, ten have 'cooked' - not every individual one; one signal's motor had burnt out twice - and Graham has valiantly replaced them. 

 

When you ask if it had nothing to do with the Viessman motors, you might ask that same question to Andrew Hartsthorne at Wizard.MSE/Comet Models. He gave Graham Nicholas a pile of burnt-out ones at Stevenage last year. They'd been returned as being  'faulty'. As far as I know, he no longer stocks them. He thought that among the duds (it's always just one pole which fails), Graham might be able to make a good one out of two.

 

I wonder whether we're asking the product to do something it's not designed for - operating hand-made signals? As far as I know, they're designed for working continental-style RTP signals, which, I assume, don't have cranks for operating bracket signals (though it's not just the bracket ones which have failed on LB). I know they have to be altered slightly to work British semaphores (a loop put into the operating wire, which immediately invalidates any guarantee).

 

Graham uses them on Grantham, and, prior to the installation of the 'protectors', has had some fail.

 

The irony is, when they work, the visual operation is beautifully-smooth - the arms go 'off' slowly and go 'on' faster. 

 

From my experience, servos are the complete opposite. If a signal has any stiffness or resistance to movement, the servos don't care at all. If necessary, they'll wreck the sticky signal! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Interesting. I took your comment about oiling the cranks as meaning that the signals were stiff and once they'd been freed up they worked well with the Viessmanns. I didn't know you had to oil those.

 

I have one, and only one, Viessmann motor on the Mid-Cornwall Lines. It was given to me by a friend who found that it didn't have enough guts for 0 gauge. I fitted it to a ground disc which worked until the end cap of the motor fell off and it lost its damping function. Once I'd fixed that it was, and is, fine but they were far too expensive to contemplate for the whole layout, so I went down the memory wire route. The only snag is that memory wire is hard to come by now. Fortunately, I've got enough for the whole layout on hand.

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56 minutes ago, richard i said:

You could also add, how many current teachers want to give up teaching and become model makers. Actually I could have just stopped with the first half of that sentence. I for one think most are looking for a route out because of the ever changing goal posts and raised expectations of what can be achieved in a day by one person. 

 

 

Not to mention the fact that it now considered very non - PC to pin the little scrotes up by their ears when you catch them wrapping a chair around another Teacher's head.  But that's getting OT.

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1 hour ago, richard i said:

You could also add, how many current teachers want to give up teaching and become model makers. Actually I could have just stopped with the first half of that sentence. I for one think most are looking for a route out because of the ever changing goal posts and raised expectations of what can be achieved in a day by one person. 
it is interesting just how many teachers/ ex teachers there are in the hobby. Is there a correlation between choice of profession and choice of hobby?

richard 

I was indeed once a teacher but only for eight years and escaped to be a model maker in 1976. Almost every teacher I knew had an "escape plan" - retirement (I could have retired at 51), lottery win, pregnacy etc.etc.

My reasons for being a teacher in the first place weren't very noble, guaranteed weekends off and long holidays mostly - to leave me eough time for real life. Back then in 1968 teacher training wasn't essential, a degree was enough qualification and I learned on the job.

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23 minutes ago, DougN said:

 

The pipework looks fine Doug-don't forget that it was continually being stripped, bent, relaid and otherwise badly treated in service.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, richard i said:

You could also add, how many current teachers want to give up teaching and become model makers. Actually I could have just stopped with the first half of that sentence. I for one think most are looking for a route out because of the ever changing goal posts and raised expectations of what can be achieved in a day by one person. 
it is interesting just how many teachers/ ex teachers there are in the hobby. Is there a correlation between choice of profession and choice of hobby?

richard 


I enjoy my teaching greatly, but as a peripatetic music teacher my pupil numbers are becoming dire. 3 years ago I was on 5 days teaching, this September it could be as low as 2.5. I’m paid for what I teach with no protection of a salary.

 

I never wanted my hobby to become my job, but thank goodness I did, otherwise I’d have been in a real financial mess.

Edited by Hawin Dooiey
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30 minutes ago, jrg1 said:

The pipework looks fine Doug-don't forget that it was continually being stripped, bent, relaid and otherwise badly treated in service.  

Your dead right John, I have seen photos that show it absolutely all over the place to the point it looked like loose spaghetti. But during the LNER period I am  modelling it was pretty tidy. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

One of the things I found when I abandoned teaching in 1994 was the erosion of 'discipline' in the classroom, where some lessons (not mine) were being wrecked by kids 'beyond control'. As a union rep', we set up a 'tunnel committee' to enable teachers to 'escape' to other, less-stressful careers. What was ghastly was the number of teachers I knew of whose mental health was effectively 'destroyed' by the stress of the job.

 

teachers.jpg.220ed9532d21134b13d4b53abbe9bb43.jpg

... may also have something to do with it?

Edited by LNER4479
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3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Interesting. I took your comment about oiling the cranks as meaning that the signals were stiff and once they'd been freed up they worked well with the Viessmanns. I didn't know you had to oil those.

 

I think that WAS what Tony was referring to, John (ie oiling the linkages between the motor and the signal arm). The motor itself is a sealed unit (although you can get in to them if you know how - I've had plenty of goosed ones to practice on) so I wouldn't recommend any 3-in-1 going anywhere near it. Mind you, that GT85 stuff might be worth a try? Hmm ... 

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2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I think that WAS what Tony was referring to, John (ie oiling the linkages between the motor and the signal arm). The motor itself is a sealed unit (although you can get in to them if you know how - I've had plenty of goosed ones to practice on) so I wouldn't recommend any 3-in-1 going anywhere near it. Mind you, that GT85 stuff might be worth a try? Hmm ... 

You can get in when the end cap falls off...

 

I don't think I'd be inclined to put anything in them myself.

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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think it has a lot to do with the Viessmans, John,

I wonder whether we're asking the product to do something it's not designed for - operating hand-made signals? As far as I know, they're designed for working continental-style RTP signals, which, I assume, don't have cranks for operating bracket signals (though it's not just the bracket ones which have failed on LB). I know they have to be altered slightly to work British semaphores (a loop put into the operating wire, which immediately invalidates any guarantee).

Tony. 

 

I had a look at my Spur Null ones that are still in the box.  A bit of skullduggery and the counterweight works off the shaft - no cranks involved.  They are staying in the box, my lock down project (Blindheim) doesn't require signals.  Bill

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30 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I think that WAS what Tony was referring to, John (ie oiling the linkages between the motor and the signal arm). The motor itself is a sealed unit (although you can get in to them if you know how - I've had plenty of goosed ones to practice on) so I wouldn't recommend any 3-in-1 going anywhere near it. Mind you, that GT85 stuff might be worth a try? Hmm ... 

Thanks Graham,

 

That's what I meant. I didn't get any oil near the motor itself. 

 

The oil itself (3-in-1! I used to use that on my rusting old bike) is a synthetic type, applied via a hypodermic. It's recommended by Norman Solomon.

 

Counting my ten, how many Viessmans have you had fail in total?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Counting my ten, how many Viessmans have you had fail in total?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

20200809_135446.jpg.c042b910049b6d130af806812bd78115.jpg

Does this give you an idea?

 

20200809_135423.jpg.0220ffe53d4eae503591afb665164c13.jpg

20200809_135339.jpg.4bc3ca2ae07f9a60282599dad9378872.jpg

Here's the internal gubbins of one. At its heart, it's a simple two-way solenoid, but the 'clever' bit is the sliding carrier (activated by the solenoid), which is linked to the actuator by the spring and damper arrangement. Well, I  say clever, but that's the bit that gets stuck!

 

What should happen is that the pulse from the coil flicks the carrier from one side to the other, in doing so, 'arming' itself for the return travel via a set of sliding contacts. So it doesn't actually need a passing contact feed, it can cope with a continuous feed as, once flicked, it cuts itself off from the circuit. However, if it gets stuck such that it's still in contact with its original circuit then cooking ensues!

 

Andrew's additional circuitry protects them by automatically reducing the input voltage to next-to-nothing after a few ms, thereby protecting the motor whilst the signal man attempts to reset. There is a manual reset whereby you stick a length of thin wire into the tube-like opening on the front and push the carrier back to its starting position. Manual wiggling of the mechanism back and forth usually has the same effect.

 

I wish I could be more enthusiastic about them, as they are such exquisite pieces of miniature engineering. To provide some balance, there are 33 currently installed and working on Grantham, with a further 5 on Shap, all now protected by Andrew's electronics. Since the last of the protection circuits was installed, we've done four shows in total with no failures.

Edited by LNER4479
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3 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I think that WAS what Tony was referring to, John (ie oiling the linkages between the motor and the signal arm). The motor itself is a sealed unit (although you can get in to them if you know how - I've had plenty of goosed ones to practice on) so I wouldn't recommend any 3-in-1 going anywhere near it. Mind you, that GT85 stuff might be worth a try? Hmm ... 

I wouldn't use 3 in 1 (or "trois en un" in France!) anywhere if I were you - it's absolutely lethal on many plastics, stick with GT85.

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2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

20200809_135446.jpg.c042b910049b6d130af806812bd78115.jpg

Does this give you an idea?

 

20200809_135423.jpg.0220ffe53d4eae503591afb665164c13.jpg

20200809_135339.jpg.4bc3ca2ae07f9a60282599dad9378872.jpg

Here's the internal gubbins of one. At its heart, it's a simple two-way solenoid, but the 'clever' bit is the sliding carrier (activated by the solenoid), which is linked to the actuator by the spring and damper arrangement. Well, I  say clever, but that's the bit that gets stuck!

 

What should happen is that the pulse from the coil flicks the carrier from one side to the other, in doing so, 'arming' itself for the return travel via a set of sliding contacts. So it doesn't actually need a passing contact feed, it can cope with a continuous feed as, once flicked, it cuts itself off from the circuit. However, it if gets stuck such that it's still in contact with its original circuit then cooking ensues!

 

Andrew's additional circuitry protects them by automatically reducing the input voltage to next-to-nothing after a few ms, thereby protecting the motor whilst the signal man attempts to reset. There is a manual reset whereby you stick a length of thin wire into the tube-like opening on the front and push the carrier back to its starting position. Manual wiggling of the mechanism back and forth usually has the same effect.

 

I wish I could be more enthusiastic about them, as they are such exquisite pieces of miniature engineering. To provide some balance, there are 33 currently installed and working on Grantham, with a further 5 on Shap, all now protected by Andrew's electronics. Since the last of the protection circuits was installed, we've done four shows in total with no failures.

Thanks Graham,

 

I have to say that's a pretty good indictment of any product's reliability and/or robustness. 

 

Despite your 33 on Grantham and five on Shap, plus the nine on LB, I'd say that was still a very high percentage failure figure. I assume there are no instructions with them suggesting how to 'protect' them?

 

I wonder what the 'outcry' would be if, say, Mashima motors had failed at the same rate? I've used hundreds of them down the years, only having to replace in penny numbers - and that after many, many hours of running.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.   

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19 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Hi Chas,

 

The Dia.19 is a Bill Bedford kit, although a certain amount of additional building has been required, notably the roof structure as only the central clerestory section is provided. Graeme King supplied me with one of his generic roof castings which I've made use of.

 

Graham 

Ah - thanks Graham; does the kit include the bogies?

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8 hours ago, DougN said:

A number of weeks ago and about 60 plus pages i had some help with the pipework on a V2s smoke box. After screwing up using copper that was too thick and soldering some castings on upside down:rolleyes:. I gave up for about 4 weeks so today i stopped procrastinating... well i still havent perfected it you know:crazy_mini:... i managed to do one side which people might find interesting. The wire is 0.2mm from some 5amp layout wire. The holes to the white metal and foot plate are .4mm.. thank goodness for my dremel. Any this is what the first side ended up looking like. 20200809_180157.jpg.4a014ca999d66f3d05ed5de294379e44.jpg

I think it ended up looking like what it should. I have to hold the boiler in position as it holds it self up by about 1mm which i have to fettle. Anyhow i am feeling more positive moving onto the other side now. (I will also say there is number 2 loco to be half done as well. 

Excellent work, Doug,

 

Thanks for showing us.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Has anyone else been building buildings? 

 

Lovely photos Tony, only surpassed by seeing them in the flesh.

 

As you know I've been working on Hadley Wood's signal box recently.

 

20200727_202539-1.jpg.1bfda109e38e5a7e20e4b18adc3c0cbe.jpg

 

20200727_202608-1.jpg.86b16b455a203dc28518ffbdb3cf7b91.jpg

 

I'm still not finished as I'd like to revise the stairs and windows. However, I'm pretty pleased with it other than those issues.

 

Not a build yet, but I've been working on some scale drawings for the main station building and road bridge. These have been produced using measurements taken of the surviving bits and using this information to extrapolate the dimensions of the station building itself (long gone) and a few other bits.

 

1941292481_HadleyWoodBridgeWorkings.jpg.c88623b212aca75c0d19090eeccef982.jpg

 

315398922_HadleyWoodStationBackElevation.jpg.c0b0862a7d162c736b96e1556e546ffa.jpg

 

1736483709_HadleyWoodStationFrontElevation.jpg.e70a81abeaf5066d5aea2f101587d9e8.jpg

 

P1010402.jpg.2eabe6bdf5b419e2f9febda64ed65533.jpg

 

I've still got to work out the platform waiting rooms (and the main station building's chimneys!) but the surviving canopy supports on the stairway have given me essential dimensions to work out the rest.

Edited by Atso
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1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Ah - thanks Graham; does the kit include the bogies?

Nope. With agreement of customer, I'm simply using Bachmann RTR bogies. The vehicles originally ran on older type bogies but some received Gresley bogies in LNER days.

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