Wright writes.....

[robertcwp]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I used to paint mine and found that it led to problems. The paint either rubbed off or created friction just where you didn't want any.

 

I have found that chemical blackening is an ideal solution. It is much more durable than paint and can be polished to give a lovely slippery surface.

Any tips on how to do chemical blackening please?

[Barry O]

25 minutes ago, Clem said:

A question regarding GC carriages in the 1950s. Having seen photos of GE corridor stock in teak as late as 1959, does anyone know, did Dukinfield paint the GC carriages (particularly the non-gangwayed ones) crimson in the early 50s, or just leave them and renumber with the E prefix/suffix? At some stage I'd like to include a couple in my local passengers as they definitely appeared regularly in my period.

Clem

 

The CLC non corridors look like they stayed in brown..but the only photo of one I found , was of a filthy coach..there was no colour to be seen ..oh for a colour photo or two!

 

Baz

[Clem]

20 minutes ago, Barry O said:

The CLC non corridors look like they stayed in brown..but the only photo of one I found , was of a filthy coach..there was no colour to be seen ..oh for a colour photo or two!

Morning Baz, Thanks for that. Yes the photos I've got of them in my area are like yours, inconclusive. I get the feeling that some were painted crimson but don't know what percentage. To be honest, I would like some teak in my sets anyway but photos indicate the later most or all Gresleys were painted crimson quite early on in the BR period.

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

 

These are some really interesting developments Mike. DG couplings are by far the most popular coupling in 2mm ( they were developed for 2mm by Nick Dearnley and John Greenwood - DG).

As you say fitting them to locos with deep bufferbeams is problematic. My only concern would be the loss of the buffing plate on the DG. In 2mm, getting the buffers to do their proper job is tricky - they are pretty small! Have you found that to be an issue when pushing stock?

The big advantage I would see for something like this in 2mm, for me is on the front of passenger locos which need to double head as its far more unobtrusive than a full DG.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

That's what I thought as well but in practice it pushes on the central buffer of the adjacent wagon. Would you like a 2mm test? What thickness material would you suggest though?

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mike,

 

That looks very impressive.

 

I haven't looked on your own thread, but are they available for sale?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

They are only test etches at the moment, I'm not sure whether we would want to market them but Andrew Hartshorne might be interested in the idea.

[PMP]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Any tips on how to do chemical blackening please?

Either dip them in the blackening solution after assembly, or dip components beforehand. The components need to be clean so fibre brushing them in the etch is a good idea. 
Blackening solution is available for both brass and nickel silver. They’re different products so not transposeable. I’ve also touched up after assembly and fitting (dinghams) using an old fine paint brush. They’re quite aggressive to brushes, like flux, so be wary of that.

My experience of Dinghams is here, and they’re a type I’d suggest looking at, as pretty robust, reliable, and unobtrusive.

https://albionyard.wordpress.com/2018/12/29/notes-from-the-man-cave-getting-to-grips-with-dinghams/

Edited August 11, 2020 by PMP
Add pic

[queensquare]

15 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

That's what I thought as well but in practice it pushes on the central buffer of the adjacent wagon. Would you like a 2mm test? What thickness material would you suggest though?

 

I'd love to have a play with some 2mm ones. Around 10 or 12 thou would be about right but I'm not sure it would overly matter if they were a little thicker. If you could squeeze some onto the corner of one of your test etches that would be great. 

Ive  just read your experiments with using them on a banker. Like you I have the problem on Bath in that the banker needs to draw the train out of the siding before giving it a shove up the hill before dropping off at the entrance to Combe Down tunnel and rolling back down so the normal option of no coupling isn't available.

On an N gauge model of Midsomer Norton I built for a customer some years ago we needed a banker. Trying a conventional powered loco just resulted in carnage on the very sharp off scene curves. In the end I built him a couple of unpowered Jintys  with very free running chassis which we simply coupled up behind the brake van. As the banker was attached and detached off scene he just needed another powered Jinty with the same number to roll from Masbury back down to Radstock - smoke and mirrors!

 

Jerry

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, richard i said:

To start, just E numbers. Barnums were definitely put into crimson and cream but non gangwayed I would need to look at photos to be definitive. It is the wrong end for me, now all the colour and detail changes between 1900 and 1923 and I would feel on much safer ground. Tony might know he travelled in them from retford to kiverton park as a youngster and might remember a colour under the filth and dust.

richard 

Good morning Richard,

 

I have really no idea what colour the carriages were when I first travelled between Kiveton Park and Retford return. All I know is that they were filthy.

 

They could have been any diagram, but I wouldn't have known - ex-GC, ex-GN, ex-LNER. They were all non-gangwayed in my recollection. 

 

How about this?

 

 

Taken at Kiveton Park 'in the 1950s'. The first two carriages would appear to be gangwayed stock, but probably not the third one. 

 

Despite blowing this image up, it's impossible to tell if the carriages are lined. If not, could they still be in teak/brown? Can the Land Rover accurately date the shot? 

 

 

The boat train near Kiveton Bridge. Again 'in the 1950s', so could the seventh car be still in teak? If it's a Mk.1, then it can't be, but I can't tell. 

 

 

Another 1950s scene, this time on the main line near Retford (exactly where, I'm not sure). I can't detect any lining on the leading car (which is Thompson PV stock), but the loco has AWS so I suspect it's in maroon.

 

 

The A1 is in BR blue, so anything in the train not in carmine and cream will still be in teak.

 

 

This shot was probably taken in 1955 (numberplate lowered, but 60533 still has a rimmed chimney), so it's probable that the leading ex-LMS brake is still in LMS maroon. 

 

And one for Retford, taken on Gamston Bank in 1957. 

 

What's the point in showing these prototype pictures (which are all subject to copyright restrictions)? Well, it would appear to me that teak/pre-Nationalisation colours lasted quite a long time into BR days, giving an amazing variety. 

 

My own personal memories are far too unreliable for me to offer anything with credibility (though these were scenes I saw). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Any tips on how to do chemical blackening please?

 

I use Birchwood Casey "Superblue" as sold by Wizard Models. As PMP has mentioned there are different products as they do a "Brass black" as well.

 

I have found that the "Superblue" works on brass, nickel silver, steel, even on solder and whitemetal, so it is my choice for most jobs.

 

The metal must be clean. You can either dip the metal in or apply it with a brush. I prefer using an old stiff brush as it seems to work the chemicals into the surface better. Leave it a few seconds then you polish. If you don't do this last bit, the chemical reaction can continue and the surface can get rough. I use a small pad of kitchen roll held in strong tweezers or pliers.

 

It is a really useful process for all sorts of things as you can use it as a solder resist when assembling nuts and bolts or valve gear, as long as you use a gentle paste flux, which doesn't eat it off. You can blacken a bolt to solder a nut to a footplate for example.

 

It also makes brass and nickel silver valve gear look much better and is very good at colouring exposed edges, like footplate, where paint can get rubbed off.

 

I discovered it quite a while ago and find it very useful stuff indeed.

[St Enodoc]

33 minutes ago, PMP said:

The components need to be clean so fibre brushing them in the etch is a good idea.

I always use a ladies' nail buffer for cleaning etchings nowadays.

[Barry Ten]

19 hours ago, rka said:

Can I ask the great and good on here about wagon couplings?

 

I've been building some Dapol presflo kits but don't want to use tension locks or kaydees and I think three link or instanter couplings are quite fiddly to use. Do any of you employ a similar style as Tony uses for his carriage couplings? 

 

Regards Richard 

 

 

These are three Dapol ones that run as a fixed rake with 3-links in the middle and Spratt & Winkles on the end. It is a slight fiddle to couple up the 3-links but once done, they don't need to be touched as long as the wagons are on the layout.

 

I find Spratt & Winkles work well for me (with brass blackening) but I can't fit more than about three wagons in an evening. To get around that, I make up fixed rakes with intermediate 3-links wherever possible, some up to 10 wagons long.

 

I also recommend making a fitting jig:

 

 

And then throwing it away as it'll prove totally useless.

 

Al

[Clive Mortimore]

37 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Richard,

 

I have really no idea what colour the carriages were when I first travelled between Kiveton Park and Retford return. All I know is that they were filthy.

 

They could have been any diagram, but I wouldn't have known - ex-GC, ex-GN, ex-LNER. They were all non-gangwayed in my recollection. 

 

How about this?

 

 

Taken at Kiveton Park 'in the 1950s'. The first two carriages would appear to be gangwayed stock, but probably not the third one. 

 

Despite blowing this image up, it's impossible to tell if the carriages are lined. If not, could they still be in teak/brown? Can the Land Rover accurately date the shot? 

 

 

The boat train near Kiveton Bridge. Again 'in the 1950s', so could the seventh car be still in teak? If it's a Mk.1, then it can't be, but I can't tell. 

 

 

Another 1950s scene, this time on the main line near Retford (exactly where, I'm not sure). I can't detect any lining on the leading car (which is Thompson PV stock), but the loco has AWS so I suspect it's in maroon.

 

 

The A1 is in BR blue, so anything in the train not in carmine and cream will still be in teak.

 

 

This shot was probably taken in 1955 (numberplate lowered, but 60533 still has a rimmed chimney), so it's probable that the leading ex-LMS brake is still in LMS maroon. 

 

And one for Retford, taken on Gamston Bank in 1957. 

 

What's the point in showing these prototype pictures (which are all subject to copyright restrictions)? Well, it would appear to me that teak/pre-Nationalisation colours lasted quite a long time into BR days, giving an amazing variety. 

 

My own personal memories are far too unreliable for me to offer anything with credibility (though these were scenes I saw). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Hello Tony

 

It is interesting to see that 4 of the trains have the leading brake with the van pointing inwards. I cannot see the brake on the second photo and the three coach train has the brake as the middle coach.

 

So much for some modellers insisting where the brake coach should be and with the van outer most.

[Steven B]

There are maroon and crimson/cream liveries mixed up in the same rake in at least four of the trains. Not so much a prototype for everything, but modellers choosing to ignore it?

 

Steven B.

[MJI]

I suppose mixes would be

 

big 4 mixed carmine cream

carmine cream mixed maroon / choc cream / green

And the one I just remember maroon with blue grey

 

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, MJI said:

I suppose mixes would be

 

big 4 mixed carmine cream

carmine cream mixed maroon / choc cream / green

And the one I just remember maroon with blue grey

 

And, if area appropriate, green with blue/grey (and sometimes the odd maroon one for good measure).

 

John

[jrg1]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

I use Birchwood Casey "Superblue" as sold by Wizard Models. As PMP has mentioned there are different products as they do a "Brass black" as well.

 

I have found that the "Superblue" works on brass, nickel silver, steel, even on solder and whitemetal, so it is my choice for most jobs.

 

The metal must be clean. You can either dip the metal in or apply it with a brush. I prefer using an old stiff brush as it seems to work the chemicals into the surface better. Leave it a few seconds then you polish. If you don't do this last bit, the chemical reaction can continue and the surface can get rough. I use a small pad of kitchen roll held in strong tweezers or pliers.

 

It is a really useful process for all sorts of things as you can use it as a solder resist when assembling nuts and bolts or valve gear, as long as you use a gentle paste flux, which doesn't eat it off. You can blacken a bolt to solder a nut to a footplate for example.

 

It also makes brass and nickel silver valve gear look much better and is very good at colouring exposed edges, like footplate, where paint can get rubbed off.

 

I discovered it quite a while ago and find it very useful stuff indeed.

Thanks for the information.  What effect does it have on plastic-ie Is it detrimental when blackening brass/NS components fixed to plastic?

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, jrg1 said:

Thanks for the information.  What effect does it have on plastic-ie Is it detrimental when blackening brass/NS components fixed to plastic?

 

I haven't found it to have any problems with plastic but I usually blacken the bits before fixing, so my experience is limited.

 

I have blackened steel wheel treads on bogie and tender wheels which was fine.

 

Of course there are lots of different plastics and just because it is OK with one doesn't mean it is OK with them all but I haven't found one that gave me any concern. 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

There are maroon and crimson/cream liveries mixed up in the same rake in at least four of the trains. Not so much a prototype for everything, but modellers choosing to ignore it?

 

Steven B.

 

I think that modellers who use the "observe the prototype" idea have often modelled trains with a mixture of carriage liveries.

 

On a good layout, you can almost work out the year by the mix. the earlier the date, the less maroon you see! A few maroon carriages probably means 1956/7, through to almost all maroon by the early 1960s.

 

You can certainly see mixed colours on Little Bytham and Retford and I am sure they were on Stoke Summit and Gamston Bank too, amongst others. 

[Buhar]

I remember the occasional carmine and cream in Manchester, maybe 1962, almost certainly Manchester Central. They stuck in my mind because I thought they were Pullmans. 

Alan 

[johnlambert]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

carmine cream / mixed maroon / choc cream / green

 

 

I've definitely seen photos of Western Region trains from the 1960s (I think one was dated 1963 or '64) that managed almost the complete set, only green was missing.  There must be a photo somewhere of a train in service that had all four carriage liveries, maybe a York - Bournemouth train?

[St Enodoc]

12 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think that modellers who use the "observe the prototype" idea have often modelled trains with a mixture of carriage liveries.

 

On a good layout, you can almost work out the year by the mix. the earlier the date, the less maroon you see! A few maroon carriages probably means 1956/7, through to almost all maroon by the early 1960s.

 

You can certainly see mixed colours on Little Bytham and Retford and I am sure they were on Stoke Summit and Gamston Bank too, amongst others. 

Some of my passenger trains have four liveries - crimson/cream, plain crimson, maroon and chocolate/cream. Some of my parcels trains could have any or all of those plus plain brown, green, bauxite and white - and that's not counting various colours of milk tank and the Post Office Red TPOs.

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

I suppose mixes would be

 

big 4 mixed carmine cream

carmine cream mixed maroon / choc cream / green

And the one I just remember maroon with blue grey

 

 

The Southern Region story is actually fairly simple because most of the stock was kept in sets, which would be painted at the same time.  

 

Until mid 1949, everything was painted malachite.  Thereafter carmine and cream, which meant the deep ventilator Bulleid and Mk 1 stock.  If pre grouping or Maunsell sets had to be repainted then it would be carmine and cream as well, albeit many pre grouping sets were due for scrapping about then.  So by 1956, there would be nothing painted olive green - just tatty malachite or carmine and cream.

In 1956, the Southern Region was allowed to choose a paint scheme, which of course meant green.  The shallow ventilator Bulleid stock was due for painting, followed by the deep ventilator stock, so the last stock in carmine and cream would be Maunsells and Mk 1s.  Everything in green by about 1959.

 

In the summertime (when the weather was high), one could spot the seasonal additions to a set because they might be a different livery.  There is a very good example in an early Backtrack, photo by Dick Riley at Shortlands.

 

Bill

 

[Michael Edge]

3 hours ago, queensquare said:

 

I'd love to have a play with some 2mm ones. Around 10 or 12 thou would be about right but I'm not sure it would overly matter if they were a little thicker. If you could squeeze some onto the corner of one of your test etches that would be great. 

Ive  just read your experiments with using them on a banker. Like you I have the problem on Bath in that the banker needs to draw the train out of the siding before giving it a shove up the hill before dropping off at the entrance to Combe Down tunnel and rolling back down so the normal option of no coupling isn't available.

On an N gauge model of Midsomer Norton I built for a customer some years ago we needed a banker. Trying a conventional powered loco just resulted in carnage on the very sharp off scene curves. In the end I built him a couple of unpowered Jintys  with very free running chassis which we simply coupled up behind the brake van. As the banker was attached and detached off scene he just needed another powered Jinty with the same number to roll from Masbury back down to Radstock - smoke and mirrors!

 

Jerry

I don't think I've seen banking done in 2mm but we have plenty of experience with it in 4mm. When the trains on Wentworth Junction disappear off scene they continue on much the same curve in to the fiddle yard where most of the bankers uncouple to return. Testing has revealed a few potential problems, sometimes an odd wagon in the middle of the train might be too light, shuffling the train fixes this. The coal trains are all loaded, maximum this way is 30 wagons and brake van, very few problems with them. WJ has a great variety of locos available with all sorts of different drive systems - experience will tell which ones are best for this, once it goes all electric there will be no problem as all the locos will have the same power system.

I'll try the coupling with a .012" etch, I think .010" might be too weak.

[Clive Mortimore]

5 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Some of my passenger trains have four liveries - crimson/cream, plain crimson, maroon and chocolate/cream. Some of my parcels trains could have any or all of those plus plain brown, green, bauxite and white - and that's not counting various colours of milk tank and the Post Office Red TPOs.

I know all though the history of railways there have been livery changes, just look at the permutations when Deeley introduced his simplified livery and renumbered all the locos a year later on the MR.

 

I am modelling the early to mid sixties. I am sticking to post 1956 livery to pre 1966 corporate livery, that is black or green locos, maroon coaches and green DMUs for my layout. Therefore sicking with my visually compatible concept.

 

Before everyone shouts D1733 and the XP64 train was in blue grey in 1964. It was but the slapping on boring blue onto anything that moved didn't start in earnest until 66, then it took its time.

[t-b-g]

11 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Some of my passenger trains have four liveries - crimson/cream, plain crimson, maroon and chocolate/cream. Some of my parcels trains could have any or all of those plus plain brown, green, bauxite and white - and that's not counting various colours of milk tank and the Post Office Red TPOs.

 

Proper good observation!

 

There a certain sort of almost O.C.D. behaviour that makes me want to put carriages in nice neat matching trains. Seeing a set in nearly all maroon with a couple of carmine/cream carriages and a set of mainly carmine/cream with a couple of maroon carriages, I get a great urge to swap the two miscreants to make it all neat but I know that is not how it was in real life.

 

I managed to mix up some sets on Burnden Park but I had to fight every instinct to do it!