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54 minutes ago, Iain Mac said:

"With Hornby's P2 available, who needs to do this sort of thing now?"

 

Anyone wanting a decent P2....

 

My pal has had all sorts of issues with his D B. Version and regrets not just plumping for the railroad 'bog standard' version to cut about and improve.

Spec and features wise it was very much a case of Hornby plumping for the "ah, but I saw you coming" reasoning.

He's also just recieved an A2/2 of Waverley, PDK kit and feeling sorry for himself with Hornby announcing their forthcoming.

I don't know why myself, even ex-crownline beats rtr hands down. Particularly when you have to take the surgeons implements of reconstruction out to get what you want.

 

 

I'm puzzled Iain,

 

Not an unusual situation, mind.

 

You say your pal has received an A2/2 of 'Waverley'. May I suggest he returns it forthwith? You see WAVERLEY (60509) is not an A2/2; it's an A2/1, and Hornby is not producing that Thompson variant. The four 'Orphans of the Storm' (according to Thompson) were originally intended to be the last four V2s, built at Darlington. However, Thompson had them turned out as Pacifics; Pacifics which shared the same boiler and firebox as the V2s, meaning they cannot be built in model form using the commonality between the A2/2s and A2/3s (which had different boilers and larger fireboxes).

 

When I was assisting Hornby in the development of the Thompson Pacifics, the A2/1s were mentioned, and it was decided that too much new tooling would be necessary to produce the quartet. 

 

What I think you'll find is that your mate's 60509 is actually an A2/1, which won't be available RTR, nor, in my opinion, ever will be.

 

Regarding Hornby's P2, I don't know whether you saw the little DVD I was involved with which showed the loco on test on Little Bytham. The model wasn't even in the shops at the time, and I had the privilege of assessing it. It was (is) an astonishing model, and at a price that's unbeatable. I had to add more weight to my kit-built A2/2 (which the P2s became) to match the Hornby P2's haulage ability! If Hornby 'saw you coming', then it was to greet you with a very fine product indeed.

 

What 'issues' has your friend had with it, please?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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22 minutes ago, Adam88 said:

 

Enunciation surely!

Perhaps,

 

But 'annunciation' means an announcement, which is what broadcaster proclaim (enunciate); isn't it?

 

Perhaps my context is wrong. If so, my apologies. 

 

As I say; isn't English wonderful?   

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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50 minutes ago, Mark C said:

What?  Abbott Ale not to your liking...??!!

Not back then. I'd been brought up on McKewen's best Scotch, a dark ale. Abbott was a bit too hoppy for my tastes. 

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11 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm puzzled Iain,

 

Not an unusual situation, mind.

 

You say your pal has received an A2/2 of 'Waverley'. May I suggest he returns it forthwith? You see WAVERLEY (60509) is not an A2/2; it's an A2/1, and Hornby is not producing that Thompson variant. The four 'Orphans of the Storm' (according to Thompson) were originally intended to be the last four V2s, built at Darlington. However, Thompson had them turned out as Pacifics; Pacifics which shared the same boiler and firebox as the V2s, meaning they cannot be built in model form using the commonality between the A2/2s and A2/3s (which had different boilers and larger fireboxes).

 

When I was assisting Hornby in the development of the Thompson Pacifics, the A2/1s were mentioned, and it was decided that too much new tooling would be necessary to produce the quartet. 

 

What I think you'll find is that your mate's 60509 is actually an A2/1, which won't be available RTR, nor, in my opinion, ever will be.

 

Regarding Hornby's P2, I don't know whether you saw the little DVD I was involved with which showed the loco on test on Little Bytham. The model wasn't even in the shops at the time, and I had the privilege of assessing it. It was (is) an astonishing model, and at a price that's unbeatable. I had to add more weight to my kit-built A2/2 (which the P2s became) to match the Hornby P2's haulage ability! If Hornby 'saw you coming', then it was to greet you with a very fine product indeed.

 

What 'issues' has your friend had with it, please?  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

It is indeed the A2/1, my mistake on misrepresenting the class. I could blame the phone or fat fingers but alass, I'll hold my hands up.

The tooling for the bells and whistles P2 price point is so close to the railroad version that no amount of under bonnet gubbins makes up for the fact that to get a model you'd hope for the bells and whistles version expense is an "I saw you coming" sales pitch. Or words to that effect I believe were used.

Moulded hand rails and coal load being amongst the desired changes. Items seperately applied on the pacifics and not difficult to assume (I'm a CAD designer across various softwares including injection mould design) to include at the higher spec. Moulded front buffers rather than sprung were also mentioned but it won't be running tender first under load so i don't take that particular point myself.

The mechanism might perform but the railroad version is a better value starting point for fettling I think his realisation is.

I do recall your video, probly got the dvd from BRM somewhere, but I've had a few years of life under my belt since running around after a young un to recall the finer points.

Incidently. It was a copy of your build review/process of the Crownline A2/1 from BRM 1999/2000? era that I supplied the builder for his guidance.

 

P2's never got over the Waverley so the finer points in terms of Hornby's accuracy of rendition I don't know and can not comment on. They've never been high on my research list and I certainly never witnessed the original builds in any guise.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, 96701 said:

 Must admit, speaking as a northerner (Lancastrian near the Yorkshire Dales) none of the Greene King brews have been to my liking. My first pint of real ale was in 1973 and was Theakston's Bitter when it as still brewed at Masham. What a revelation! We spoke to the barman who showed us a very slim volume entitled "The Good Beer Guide". There were 2 pubs in there that brewed their own beer. These had to be tried first, then closer to home we discovered Boddingtons Bitter brewed at Strangeways. Now there was a force to be reckoned with, the eighth pint tasted as good as the first. Sorry, Greene King beers just do not come close, the nearest that I have to the last pint tasting as good as the first is Oakham Beers JHB, another good session beer with lots of flavour.

I moved from Stotfold to Leeds so had the joys of Theakstons, Tetleys and Timothy Taylors ales on the doorstep.  Funnily enough, though I live in Scotland now, I rarely drink beer apart from during my annual holidays to the Lake district. 

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I don't think Hornby have done a "bells and whistles" P2.

 

It was part of the misjudged Design Clever era along with models such as 71000 Duke Of Gloucester, Crosti 9Fs and the GWR heavy freight eight-coupled tank locomotives.

 

A strange idea of models between the normal range and the Railroad range. Soon dropped,

 

 

 

Jason

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22 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Perhaps,

 

But 'annunciation' means an announcement, which is what broadcaster proclaim (enunciate); isn't it?

 

Perhaps my context is wrong. If so, my apologies. 

 

As I say; isn't English wonderful?   

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Tony,

 

Let me not divert the thread too far from important things like lamp irons and chimneys but it is interesting to investigate these words on-line in say Chambers or Collins and compare with what is given in Merriam Webster.  The latter gives definitions more in keeping with your usage, Collins also gives your usage as American English.

 

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34 minutes ago, jacko said:

I moved from Stotfold to Leeds so had the joys of Theakstons, Tetleys and Timothy Taylors ales on the doorstep.  Funnily enough, though I live in Scotland now, I rarely drink beer apart from during my annual holidays to the Lake district. 

In the seventies, Tim Taylors beers were superb in winter, but because they used to store their beer in the open air, they were not so good in summer until they appeared to get a better storage system, now they are superb all year round.

 

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1 hour ago, 96701 said:

 Must admit, speaking as a northerner (Lancastrian near the Yorkshire Dales) none of the Greene King brews have been to my liking. My first pint of real ale was in 1973 and was Theakston's Bitter when it as still brewed at Masham. What a revelation! We spoke to the barman who showed us a very slim volume entitled "The Good Beer Guide". There were 2 pubs in there that brewed their own beer. These had to be tried first, then closer to home we discovered Boddingtons Bitter brewed at Strangeways. Now there was a force to be reckoned with, the eighth pint tasted as good as the first. Sorry, Greene King beers just do not come close, the nearest that I have to the last pint tasting as good as the first is Oakham Beers JHB, another good session beer with lots of flavour.

Theakstons still brew beers in Masham as doestheblack sheep" of the family. Sadly when I umpired tgere a few weeks ago both brew houses were "between" brews.

 

Green King IPA has changed for the better after they bought Morlands of Abingdon out..it is still a bit dull compared to Black Sheep or Theakstons. Favourite beer for me is Tim Taylors Ram Tam now renamed to be "Dark Landlord" which is really what it always has been.

 

Baz

 

Ps I hate some of the North Eastern accents usedby the BBC..

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8 hours ago, Barry O said:

Theakstons still brew beers in Masham as doestheblack sheep" of the family. Sadly when I umpired tgere a few weeks ago both brew houses were "between" brews.

 

Green King IPA has changed for the better after they bought Morlands of Abingdon out..it is still a bit dull compared to Black Sheep or Theakstons. Favourite beer for me is Tim Taylors Ram Tam now renamed to be "Dark Landlord" which is really what it always has been.

 

Baz

 

Ps I hate some of the North Eastern accents usedby the BBC..

As an aside, I was exporing part of the site of the battle of Arras on the centenary of the death of my father's cousin in that battle. When my mate and I got to one of the smaller cemeteries, which I always find more impactive than the big ones, a party of cyclists also arrived. It turned out to be IIRC Paul Theakston, the proprietor of the Black Sheep brewery, his wife, two sons and the brewery manager, also touring the battlefield as apparently his great uncle had lost a leg there. Pure coincidence. I was however able to help him with some history of the narrow gauge at Masham and later sent him details of the Bowtell book that includes that line. A really nice gent to meet and his beer is superb.

 

Please forgive the digression from the discussion of LNER pacifics.

 

Jamie

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8 hours ago, Adam88 said:

 

Tony,

 

Let me not divert the thread too far from important things like lamp irons and chimneys but it is interesting to investigate these words on-line in say Chambers or Collins and compare with what is given in Merriam Webster.  The latter gives definitions more in keeping with your usage, Collins also gives your usage as American English.

 

Many thanks Adam (is '88' the year of your birth?). 

 

I'm glad I didn't drop too much of a blooper! 

 

You're right; this is a model railway thread and details on various bits of models should take precedence. However, English is also very important and it seems to me that 'standards' are continuously being eroded across the whole media thingy. 

 

It's my belief that general standards of spoken/written English have never been universally-good (is that a correct use of a hyphen?). I only need to look back over my years in teaching to recall letters from some parents (who were educated long before my 'training') to tell that, but the 'professional' media going back some 40/50 years (and more) was usually correct - the radio, telly, newspapers and so on. Not now.

 

Anyway, a delight to correspond. I don't mind being picked up where I get my English usage incorrect (I deserve to be), but it remains the case that some correspondents are 'sensitive' if their (poor) use of English is commented on.

 

Best draw a line..................?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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4 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

As an aside, I was exporing part of the site of the battle of Arras on the centenary of the death of my father's cousin in that battle. When my mate and I got to one of the smaller cemeteries, which I always find more impactive than the big ones, a party of cyclists also arrived. It turned out to be IIRC Paul Theakston, the proprietor of the Black Sheep brewery, his wife, two sons and the brewery manager, also touring the battlefield as apparently his great uncle had lost a leg there. Pure coincidence. I was however able to help him with some history of the narrow gauge at Masham and later sent him details of the Bowtell book that includes that line. A really nice gent to meet and his beer is superb.

 

Please forgive the digression from the discussion of LNER pacifics.

 

Jamie

Nothing to forgive, Jamie............

 

It's most interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Though Stotfold is not renowned for its beer, when I worked in Letchworth I did sometimes used to stop off there for a few jars with work colleagues on my way home.  When I somehow became the management representative on the works sports and social club committee, I think my most useful contribution was the selection of Tetleys as the draught bitter!

 

To anyone currently exiled to the area, may I recommend the Engineers' Arms in Henlow?

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When I posted pictures of excellent 4mm locos yesterday, the two on Kingstorre seemed to be very popular.

 

That being the case, two more.............................

 

84833446_Kingstorre08.jpg.4a2e0fd37360518d17abd95214337972.jpg

 

1503263581_Kingstorre09.jpg.733fe1dac3741e44f0a8701a86358fda.jpg

 

2mm/N Gauge later........................

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19 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

The English language in written and spoken form has evolved over centuries...

I know you've said 'draw a line' Tony but in this fast moving thread of yours it's difficult to keep up!

 

I too am fascinated by the whole subject and would like to echo 'Chris's point (or should that be " 'Chris' 's point", as I am aware that 'Chris' is not his real name?). The words of one Mr Shakespeare are rightly lauded as (one of) the greatest expression(s) of the english language - yet we hardly walk around today uttering statements like 'verily, I say unto thee ...'.  In 400 years time our distant descendants might come across a dog-eared copy of '4mm loco kit building' by Tony Wright and will probably fall about laughing (apart from the obvious reason) at the quaint use of 'old english' ('Dat's like wot they's used to speak, innit?'). Even books written 100 years ago can raise a smile at the slightly different use of the language at that time.

 

My point (echoing 'Chris') is that change is a constant so far as language is concerned (as indeed with many things), and we have no right to expect it, nor for the so-called 'rules' that surround it, to be immutable.

 

 

Here's one of my favourites. Punctuate the following to make it make sense:

 

John whereas Mary had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher

 

 

Perhaps we should indeed hasten ourselves back to the modelling ...

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, 96701 said:

 Sorry, Greene King beers just do not come close, the nearest that I have to the last pint tasting as good as the first is Oakham Beers JHB, another good session beer with lots of flavour.

 

Takes all sorts I suppose :D

 

Seriously, I respect others point of view but for both of us (SWMBO and I) JHB is a bland session beer, not much flavour. And the brewery is 2/3rds of a mile from me!

 

I'll agree on a lot of Greene King ales, not been the same since the Chinese bought it out, and wasn't much cop before that.

 

Mind you they also own/brew Ruddles, Morland, Hardys and Hansons, and a couple of others. One or two are reasonable if you can find them. Ruddles are a poor shadow of what they used to be ever since they moved the brewery from Langham (near Oakham). Nearest to the old Ruddles ales are Grainstore.

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6 minutes ago, CUTLER2579 said:

 

By heck 4479 that was a quick day,and so to bed said Zebedee. :D

I think it was the Edinburgh-Carlisle Waverley route that was being referred to so Mick needs to try a bit harder...

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As is well known, I get several 'interesting' locomotives to examine from time to time.

 

Last week a friend gave me a K's Ivatt 2-6-2T, built by the late Alec Swain. It had been given to him by Alec, but 'it didn't go'. 

 

I'm not sure how old it is (a generation or two, I'd think) and it had been standing on a shelf gathering dust for most of that time. 

 

My friend was right; it didn't go! It buzzed a bit, generated some smoke then performed no more. 

 

What to do?

 

1108020176_AlecSwainIvatt2-6-2T01.jpg.be95e218d271ecff7ac08fb0d42f479d.jpg

 

The loco and its mechanism were very well made (even with K's wheels), and, on bench-testing, I got the K's Mk.1 motor to turn (just about). It was wired the opposite polarity to the norm (not that that was important at this stage) and, after a clean, a tweak here and there and a drop of oil, it moved along the test track; just! However, what a racket - growling and slow. No good at all. 

 

Now, I was faced with a dilemma. What to do? I took pity on the poor old thing, dismantled much of the chassis and installed one of the latest DJH motor/gearbox combinations, fitting new nickel silver pick-ups at the same time (the originals were phosphor bronze and had no 'spring' left in them). But, here's the dilemma - what might it be worth now? The new motor/gearbox is well in excess of half a hundred pounds, so it's probably worth more that the whole loco itself! It now runs really sweetly (despite the K's wheels), and it is rather quaint.

 

762650216_AlecSwainIvatt2-6-2T02.jpg.d3b02be08899237d9cdc696d526c302c.jpg

 

Note the 'natural' weathering............

 

The ghastly pony wheels will be replaced. 

 

And, here's another reason for the dilemma............

 

1537616834_BachmannIvatt2-6-2T31-441DC02.jpg.196e319b558a03e7f87b5b39f31c74ff.jpg

 

Bachmann's RTR equivalent. Does anyone know what one of these costs? 

 

75716790_BachmannIvatt2-6-2T31-441DC03.jpg.fa2d143483c3a9ffa88e9b7b2ad4c6c1.jpg

 

DCC-ready as well. What price the poor old K's thing now? 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I know you've said 'draw a line' Tony but in this fast moving thread of yours it's difficult to keep up!

 

I too am fascinated by the whole subject and would like to echo 'Chris's point (or should that be " 'Chris' 's point", as I am aware that 'Chris' is not his real name?). The words of one Mr Shakespeare are rightly lauded as (one of) the greatest expression(s) of the english language - yet we hardly walk around today uttering statements like 'verily, I say unto thee ...'.  In 400 years time our distant descendants might come across a dog-eared copy of '4mm loco kit building' by Tony Wright and will probably fall about laughing (apart from the obvious reason) at the quaint use of 'old english' ('Dat's like wot they's used to speak, innit?'). Even books written 100 years ago can raise a smile at the slightly different use of the language at that time.

 

My point (echoing 'Chris') is that change is a constant so far as language is concerned (as indeed with many things), and we have no right to expect it, nor for the so-called 'rules' that surround it, to be immutable.

 

 

Here's one of my favourites. Punctuate the following to make it make sense:

 

John whereas Mary had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher

 

 

Perhaps we should indeed hasten ourselves back to the modelling ...

 

 

 

 

 

Draw a line might be best, Graham.

 

However (isn't there always an 'however'?), it hasn't taken 100 years to 'erode' our wonderful English grammar/spelling, it's taken far fewer years. I'm not talking here of dialect or colloquial speech (my paternal family is from Yorkshire, so I know all about that), but the use of English by so called 'professional' presenters and journalists. 

 

Recent 'bloopers' include 'Me 'n' Steph will be investigating................' (BBC). Or worse - 'It'll be up to Steph and I to sort this out' or words to that effect. And, as for 'sit', 'sat', 'sitting' (why not 'satting'?), you know my opinions on those!  

 

Take diction as well. Why is it so fashionable now for presenters not to be able to pronounce the letter 'r' properly? Brilliant in Monty Python (welease Woger), but not where clear speech is essential. And, as for the cricket presenters ................ What form of the game is 'twenny-twenny'? Groan! 

 

And, what about the dreadful lack of general knowledge shown by some presenters? Recently, there was some wonderful footage shown of seals 'herding' shoals of fish into 'bait balls', making it easier for them to catch them. The presenter (BBC breakfast) thought they were platypuses (or should that be platypi?). A duck-billed platypus catching fast-swimming fish in the open ocean? I choked over my cup of tea!   

 

Anyway, enough said. 

 

Let's get back to railway modelling....................

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20 hours ago, jacko said:

I lived in Stotfold for a year or so in about 1985 while I worked at ICL in Letchworth.  Hated living so far south away from a decent pint.

What is wrong with a pint of Charlie Wells Bombardier?

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46 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

yet we hardly walk around today uttering statements like 'verily, I say unto thee ...'

 

You've never been to a building site when no one's around....:D

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