Wright writes.....

[micklner]

31 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

If a HL 'box needs an 'extender', I don't think the saving would be 50%, Mick. 

 

In fact 50% might be the very best achievable, if that.

 

That said, I accept your conclusions. However, the skill factor is still necessary in building any piece of precision equipment (you have it, of course, but it's not universal). Not all who attempt loco kits have that skill and one of the most difficult problems for beginners (and even the more experienced) is getting a silky-smooth, quiet, powerful and free-running prime mover (which DJH motor/gearbox combos give automatically). 

 

I've seen many quite well-built locos which visually run just fine, but sound like a miniature chain saw. 

 

I accept again that the DJH 'boxes are more suitable for larger locos because they're difficult to hide in smaller ones. However, they are beautiful runners, and, to some, for that they'll pay. You don't need to pay 'top dollar'; you can make your own. Not all can.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

The price quoted was for a top range motor and a extender as well.

 

For my recent Nucast BTP , it needed a normal HL gearbox @ £14  and a N Drive 1015 motor @£7.50 total cost £21.50  ,via ebay , compared to a totally unsuitable DJH version, which to fit it would had a large section of Boiler bottom removed and then  still fill the cab @ £75 , the saving on that one loco is £ 53.50 a tad more than 50% saving !!. The N drive may only be a 1015 size and the Nucast kit is all heavy whitemetal body , but it still moves eight Hornby Pullmans , without fuss.

N Drive Motors are here     https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Drive-1015-12v-DC-micro-motor/182870714017?hash=item2a93f1a6a1:g:uCMAAOSwICpZ9ZjU              

 

There plenty of other motors at much cheaper prices, via ebay and other sources  that will fit various  HL boxes and will pull just as well. I have no idea what the extender is used for , all my locos builds  just use the various normal gearboxes, and use  the maximum size motor that will fit easily and cannot be seen once assembled. Most of mine have Mashima motors, bought when they were sensible prices.

 

I cannot see any logic in building very expensive kits and then filling either Cabs and/or gears showing under Boilers. They maybe sweet running etc, but in my view they are not the correct equipment to be used on 4mm "normal " size locomotives.

 

As to building the HL boxes that are not complicated to build at all, and are very easy to make as already said. Simply follow the instructions and you cant go wrong. People reading here about skill levels etc etc as quoted above ,will simply be put off trying to make one.

 

If you can make a Loco run you CAN easily build a HL box .

[Lecorbusier]

What is the cost of the DJH box in kit form without motor?

 

I note Chris at High Level is now offerring his own range of smaller motors .... for £9.50 a pop ... does anyone have experience of them? .... beats £27 - £30!!!

 

Using these you can escape at £25 ish for box and motor

[CXW1]

56 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said:

What is the cost of the DJH box in kit form without motor?

 

I note Chris at High Level is now offerring his own range of smaller motors .... for £9.50 a pop ... does anyone have experience of them? .... beats £27 - £30!!!

 

Using these you can escape at £25 ish for box and motor

 

Chris's cheaper motors are very good. I have used both the 1020 and 1015 versions. 

 

Here is a picture of the 1020 motor with a High Level Lo Loader gearbox. The motor, as you say, was £9.50 and the gearbox was £16. I am very happy with how it performs. No connection with High Level other than being a satisfied customer. 

 

My observation is that the motor looks very similar to that which is fitted to the new DJH offering. 

 

I have also used Mitsumi motors as supplied by John Isherwood for around seven quid - also very good. 

 

Thanks

 

Chris 

 

 

 

 

[Barry O]

I have fitted a similar motor bought from China. It cost about £2. Runs like a dream and it is soldered to a High Level Box. Works well..as does 2 others fitted the same way. I have had one failure. One motor didn't work when it arrived..but at £2 who cares. So the motor and gearbox came out at £20..a fair saving on the £72 DJH are charging...

 

Baz

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

What a strange Gearbox discussion we are all having?

 

From what I can gather the DJH offering is very good and simple to install .... tick. A little on the large side so perhaps only suitabe for larger locomotives? Some say pricey but would appear value for what is offered. Perhaps more robust than the High Level?

 

High Level Gearboxes are very good and have a significant range of combinations and can be configured to suit pretty much all applications. They take a touch more skill to put together (though perhaps not if you buy the DJH box in kit form for the lower price) On balance they also appear to be a slightly cheaper option when comparing like for like?

 

So two excellent options .... horses for courses perhaps? ... with a dose of personal preference.

 

Voila!

Probably the most sensible post on this topic to date, Tim,

 

Regarding DJH 'boxes, it's my understanding that they're no longer available in kit-form because too many were returned because the purchaser 'made a mess of them'. That's not to say they were difficult to put together, but, as I've already stated, any piece of precision engineering needs care in assembly. Care, some know-how and, preferably, some experience. 

 

Which is why I'm surprised at times when being accused of 'putting people off' building things like gearboxes and complete locomotives. I'm not; above all else I'd hope Wright Writes encourages folk to have a go. However, the fact remains that the situation of 'aspiration over ability' is ever constant. I've seen too many examples of hopelessly put-together kits (often very expensive ones) which are no longer worth the value of their component parts. 

 

To advise caution in trying to assemble 'complex' mechanisms is not putting folk off; I hope it's good advice.

 

This post is not a 'criticism' of your observations, by the way. It's an observation of 'criticisms'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Jesse Sim]

If you like using DJH then use DJH, if you like using HL then use HL. Simple as that, end of story, end of discussion.

 

I’ve used DJH three times now and I’m happy, being a one man band, the time it will take to build a box I could use for something else. I’ve only just started kit building locos, the kit and chassis is enough to muddle my brain let alone trying to build something to make it go. At least now I can concentrate on making sure the chassis and body are perfect and then slapping a DJH motor in it in a matter of minutes. It’s far better then blowing my brain. 
 

I apologise if this offends anyone and it’s not my intention to do so, but there was a recent discussion about this on my own thread and no matter how many times I said “I’m happy with DJH at the moment”, “yes I might try HL later on” and “DJH have looked after me, I’m happy” I still got the HL comments shoved down my throat. How many times must one say, they’re happy with a product and aren’t interested in changing at the present time. If it works for you then keep doing what you like. 

[micklner]

Sorry Tony the HL boxes are not complicated and I have no idea on why you are persisting keep saying so.

 

You are simply putting people off, by constantly saying you have seen  lots of bent boxes etc etc . Modellers will only learn by trying new things and making mistakes. If its wrong we are not talking about huge amounts of money under £20 maximum . No different from mucking a kit up , thats how we all learn.

 

For anybody who doesnt know , how to build a HL box.

 

Take the etch cut out of the gearbox shape out of the sheet , ensure the axle holes are a good fit to the supplied shaft.

 

Fold the etch in two places , ensure the corners are 100% square and solder the corners

 

Cut the gear shafts too length

 

Fit the gear and shafts in the etch , secure with a dab of superglue or solder if you are brave

 

Test fit the final drive and axle

 

Take  the motor and fit supplied worm onto the shaft , then fit to the rear of the etch with two supplied screws

 

Run and ensure all ok , remove the final gear and axle

 

Place in chassis fit the axle and final gear and run again

 

If all is well , its finished .

 

Nothing complicated or any  experts needed.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by micklner

[Tony Wright]

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

Sorry Tony the HL boxes are not complicated and I have no idea on why you are persisting keep saying so.

 

You are simply putting people off, by constantly saying you have seen  lots of bent boxes etc etc . Modellers will only learn by trying new things and making mistakes. If its wrong we are not talking about huge amounts of money under £20 maximum . No different from mucking a kit up , thats how we all learn.

 

For anybody who doesnt know , how to build a HL box.

 

Take the etch cut out of the gearbox shape out of the sheet , ensure the axle holes are a good fit to the supplied shaft.

 

Fold the etch in two places , ensure the corners are 100% square and solder the corners

 

Cut the gear shafts too length

 

Fit the gear and shafts in the etch , secure with a dab of superglue or solder if you are brave

 

Test fit the final drive and axle

 

Take  the motor and fit supplied worm onto the shaft , then fit to the rear of the etch with two supplied screws

 

Run and ensure all ok , remove the final gear and axle

 

Place in chassis fit the axle and final gear and run again

 

If all is well , its finished .

 

Nothing complicated or any self proclaimed  experts needed.

 

 

I think this discussion has gone far enough, Mick,

 

At least as far as I'm concerned.

 

There's a big difference between 'complicated' and 'complex', and that's significant in my book. And, why am I seen as putting folk off by stating I've seen lots of bent 'boxes, etc? Some of those have been HL ones as well. I'm merely advising caution. 

 

Do you know the percentage of loco kits which are never completed? Even at an 'optimistic' guess it's over 90%! Most of that high percentage is caused by a failure to make the things go, including an inability to make the prime mover sweet. Would you sooner I say 'Go ahead, dive in at the deep end, spend your money, then watch your 'investment' gather dust in a mouldering box on an even more-dusty shelf'? 

 

Quoting from your list - 'Cut the gear shafts too (sic) length'. What are the 'gear shafts' made of, please? Hardened steel or just plain steel? How do you 'cut them off'? 

 

I concede the point entirely that (from your figures) the HL 'boxes plus the cheaper motors are incredible value for money and, though complex (not complicated), are easy enough to make. But what's 'easy enough to make'? To 'self-proclaimed experts' (and to lesser mortals) they're a doddle, of course. To someone with little model-making ability, any motor/gearbox assembly will be a problem to put together successfully. Which is where the DJH combo comes in................... Thought they're bulky, difficult to disguise and (in comparison) very expensive, they're super-smooth and dead easy to install. For those starting out on making locomotives, isn't that a reasonable starting point?

 

On all these points I'll say no more, and, if necessary, I'll admit 'defeat'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Iain.d]

Being between recently having finished a LSWR 3 carriage set and waiting for an order from Wizard Models to arrive, I decided to do a bit of finishing off of things I’d started. I do struggle having unfinished stuff lying around or too much on the go at once.

 

First up was completing the brake gear and undergubbins of a couple of Parkside special cattle vans that I had constructed during our lockdown, I think in late March, early April. The bits supplied with the kits were quite basic so I used an etch from Mainly Trains that had some GW Dean and Churchward components on. I only used the various brake levers and the V hangers. I did start doing the handbrake linkages, but it was all too difficult; despite using different melting point solders I couldn’t get it all to stay together as I applied heat to various parts. Three hands would have been useful!

 

 

 

 

It’s not perfect but a reasonable representation. The wagons will go in a train make up that won’t be shunted or marshalled, it’ll be a through train, so one would be hard pushed to notice! There’s enough on one etch for two wagons, plus heaps of different size levers; certainly enough for another day. Painted up, I think they look okay. Still need to sort the shonky transfers out though!

 

 

Having done dozens of RTR carriage rebuild/refurbs so far,  I now have only seven 1980s Hornby Stanier coaches left to complete and will be using a variety of Comet sides and other components. I scratch built the underframes from brass strip and 1mm angle brass and have finished the last lot. They’re now all done and waiting to be fitted out with battery boxes, dynamos etc.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[2750Papyrus]

Mick, next time you make a High level gearbox, please would you consider recording the build to Facebook in a manner similar to  Mike Trice's teaking and lining tutorials?

[Jesse Sim]

25 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

To someone with little model-making ability, any motor/gearbox assembly will be a problem to put together successfully. Which is where the DJH combo comes in................... Thought they're bulky, difficult to disguise and (in comparison) very expensive, they're super-smooth and dead easy to install. For those starting out on making locomotives, isn't that a reasonable starting point?

 

 

Exactly!!! 

[Bucoops]

15 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Mick, next time you make a High level gearbox, please would you consider recording the build to Facebook in a manner similar to  Mike Trice's teaking and lining tutorials?

 

Not trying to do Mick out of a job, but Tom @grob1234 has already done so - 

 

 

 

Ref the hardended steel idler shaft - it does splinter easily so you do have to be careful with it. I use chunky pliers with an integrated cutter.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Bucoops

[thegreenhowards]

11 hours ago, micklner said:

 

If you can make a Loco run you CAN easily build a HL box .

I have to agree with this. I’ve yet to build a loco chassis that I’m 100% happy with (several which run, but they’re never perfect). However, I’ve built a couple of high level boxes and they’re very easy to put together and they run very sweetly. So as far as I’m concerned it’s much easier to build the gearbox than the rest of the chassis and only takes about an hour (for me - quicker I’m sure if you’re experienced).

 

Having said this, it’s not a part that I particularly enjoy and I would love to buy a ready built motor gearbox. I’d be happy to pay a small premium for this and did buy a couple of DJH boxes three years ago when they were £60, but I think that DJH have priced themselves out of the market at £75 (for many people). This may be deliberate as I guess they may have lots of warranty claims on motors so it may be more hassle than it’s worth for them.

 

Sorry Tony, I wrote this and then scrolled down to your ‘put a lid on this debate post’! I won’t say any more.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by thegreenhowards
Last line

[Lecorbusier]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

Not trying to do Mick out of a job, but Tom @grob1234 has already done so -

 

Having Watched Tom's video on assembling the gear box .... 20mins with speeded up working and elements done off screen .... I can see this being daunting for a beginner.  Having it done for you as part of a commercial opperation ... £30 plus? For a non beginner... a good option.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Lecorbusier

[Chuffer Davies]

13 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Many thanks Frank,

 

£45.00 to £53.50? Even at the lower price, to get a saving of 50% (as claimed elsewhere) over DJH 'boxes would mean that the Consett-produced ones would have to be £90.00, which they're certainly not (though I believe some Portescaps go for that, and more!). 

 

It comes down, as always, to personal choice. The HL 'boxes are superb, can be made with relative ease and will fit (invisibly) in even the smallest prototype equivalents. They're also cheaper than the DJH 'boxes. But, and this is what still might stump some, they have to be assembled. And, I'm told that not everyone can.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony,

the prices I gave related to units with Chris’s super quality coreless motors from High Level.  If you are happy to go with Chris’s iron  core motors, which look to be from the same source as those used on the DJH units, then you can save a further £12 - £15 on the cost.  
 

Please note that I have not at any point suggested that I would not use the DJH units if they were suitable for the loco I was building at the time, but for the models I need to make for Clayton, being smaller locomotives, the HL solutions are more suited to my own needs and of a quality I feel personally able to recommend to others who have not tried them.

 

As you have said, this blog is all about sharing ideas and encouraging less experienced modellers to have a go with the best possible chance of a successful outcome.  But as always I believe it is important that people are given balanced arguments on which to arrive at their decisions.
 

Frank

 

 

[t-b-g]

24 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said:

Having Watched Tom's video on assembling the gear box .... 20mins with speeded up working and elements done off screen .... I can see this being daunting for a beginner.  Having it done for you as part of a commercial opperation ... £30 plus? For a non beginner... a good option.

 

If you take out the bits where explanation was being given but no actual modelling taking place, that probably balances out the sped up and off camera elements. 

 

I think the reason why the discussion is still going on is that when somebody with Tony Wright's "name" in the hobby starts steering people away from one product in favour of another, there are people who will say " If Tony Wright uses DJH boxes in preference to High Level ones then I will do the same".

 

There are enough of us who have found High Level products to be superbly designed and really easy to make that putting one person off trying a High Level box is one too many!

 

No high level (see what I did there) of skill is needed. You need to be able to fold an etch at a right angle, open up the holes (which is little more than removing the cusp from the etch) and solder a bearing into a hole.

 

I would agree that in the days of a force or push fit final drive gear, that element could be very tricky. Now they have grub screws, if you can build a pair of frames straight square and level you can build a High Level gearbox. If you cannot build a pair of frames straight, square and level, spending more money on a DJH box to save you half an hour isn't going to make it run any better.

 

I haven't used a DJH motor and gear as I would rather purchase 2 High level ones instead and the DJH ones are not going to fit in most of the the pre-grouping models I make without sticking out all over the place. I am sure they are excellent products, even if they are more expensive than my recent purchase of a big motor and a milled/machined brass gear mount ready assembled drive for an O gauge loco.

 

I would suggest that some of the less complicated (no swivelling or adjustable angles) High Level boxes are an absolutely ideal thing for a beginner to try. A couple of folds, a couple of soldered joints and a spot of loctite/superglue to fix the layshafts in the etch.

 

If you are into shunting and slow running, the 108:1 versions are just sublime. All my best running shunting locos have them.    

[mullie]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Not trying to do Mick out of a job, but Tom @grob1234 has already done so - 

 

 

 

Ref the hardended steel idler shaft - it does splinter easily so you do have to be careful with it. I use chunky pliers with an integrated cutter.

I had never built an HL box before and it was only the second box I had built. I followed this video and built what is now a sweetly running mechanism for a J72 Comet chassis. In future I will standardise on HL boxes. I do have a Comet box, it does not run as sweetly though still good. I do not consider myself an advanced modeller, though I have built a couple of chassis and converted others to EM I have never built a complete loco kit apart from a K's J70 which was 4 white metal parts so doesn't really count.

 

Horses for courses, buy what you want, it's your money and your model.

 

Martyn

[sandra]

I am a great supporter of High Level gearboxes. They are easily assembled and reliable and they don’t absorb too much of the motor’s power.

 

I have also used Branchlines gearboxes and they do run very smoothly but I find that as the ones I’ve built are all brass with several gears they seem to absorb too much of the motor’s output. The DJH motor and gearbox is very good  but expensive and not really suitable for smaller locos.

Sandra

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Ref the hardended steel idler shaft - it does splinter easily so you do have to be careful with it. I use chunky pliers with an integrated cutter.

 

Really? Surely the sensible way to do this is with a cutting disc in a 12v electric drill?

 

John Isherwood.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Iain.d said:

Being between recently having finished a LSWR 3 carriage set and waiting for an order from Wizard Models to arrive, I decided to do a bit of finishing off of things I’d started. I do struggle having unfinished stuff lying around or too much on the go at once.

 

First up was completing the brake gear and undergubbins of a couple of Parkside special cattle vans that I had constructed during our lockdown, I think in late March, early April. The bits supplied with the kits were quite basic so I used an etch from Mainly Trains that had some GW Dean and Churchward components on. I only used the various brake levers and the V hangers. I did start doing the handbrake linkages, but it was all too difficult; despite using different melting point solders I couldn’t get it all to stay together as I applied heat to various parts. Three hands would have been useful!

 

 

 

 

It’s not perfect but a reasonable representation. The wagons will go in a train make up that won’t be shunted or marshalled, it’ll be a through train, so one would be hard pushed to notice! There’s enough on one etch for two wagons, plus heaps of different size levers; certainly enough for another day. Painted up, I think they look okay. Still need to sort the shonky transfers out though!

 

 

Having done dozens of RTR carriage rebuild/refurbs so far,  I now have only seven 1980s Hornby Stanier coaches left to complete and will be using a variety of Comet sides and other components. I scratch built the underframes from brass strip and 1mm angle brass and have finished the last lot. They’re now all done and waiting to be fitted out with battery boxes, dynamos etc.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Lovely work Iain,

 

Thanks for showing us.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Really? Surely the sensible way to do this is with a cutting disc in a 12v electric drill?

 

John Isherwood.

 

But then you have the worry of overheating the spindle if you're not in and out quickly. Someone mentioned wadding damp tissue paper between the spindle and the motor, to absorb the heat - very good advice.

 

I've used pliers to cut spindles in the past, too, despite being assured (on this forum, but not this thread) that I must be lying because pliers couldn't possibly get through hardened steel.

 

I must admit my preferred method is to avoid cutting the spindle at all costs, unless totally necessary - even if the end of the shaft has to protrude through the firehole slightly.

[Barry Ten]

4 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

 

I apologise if this offends anyone and it’s not my intention to do so, but there was a recent discussion about this on my own thread and no matter how many times I said “I’m happy with DJH at the moment”, “yes I might try HL later on” and “DJH have looked after me, I’m happy” I still got the HL comments shoved down my throat. How many times must one say, they’re happy with a product and aren’t interested in changing at the present time. If it works for you then keep doing what you like. 

 

All too true of certain attitudes in railway modelling I'm afraid.

[Chuffer Davies]

Whilst our club rooms are out of commission due the the Corona virus restrictions currently in force in Bradford, several of our members, including myself, have taken on the challenge of building a Parkside GN Pigeon Van.  As I have never built any rolling stock other than locomotives up until now I am effectively a complete novice.  Looking at the kit I’m guessing there must be options for super detailing the under frame.  Can anyone suggest either a complete brass replacement for the under frame or at least any source of brass super detailing components?
 

I initially looked at using Bill Bedford sprung W irons but on further examination I noted that the leaf springs are inboard of the W irons so is there another of springing the underframe anyone could suggest?

 

Thanks,

 

Frank

[Bucoops]

24 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Really? Surely the sensible way to do this is with a cutting disc in a 12v electric drill?

 

John Isherwood.

 

I tried that for the first one. I found it made a lot of mess and took a lot longer than just using chunky pliers

[Porcy Mane]

23 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Really? Surely the sensible way to do this is with a cutting disc in a 12v electric drill?

 

Why?  I've found a good quality 60 tpi piercing saw blade goes through hardened steel shafts like the proverbial hot knife. I'll usually hold the work piece in a pin vice rotating the vice as I cut.  

 

P