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35 minutes ago, DougN said:

Andrew the layout and stock are looking brilliant. I look forward to seeing them in a years time rather at the end of this month. Gavin and your production rate is very high. The advantages of being retired I guess. I hope to have the 2 x V2's for you to have a look at next year! 

Gav's the one who is the high achiever in terms of time as he's still working!

Andrew

 

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5 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

post-9767-0-64433600-1350292649_thumb.jpgpost-9767-0-46966300-1499720130_thumb.jpg

Going back to the cabin, this was the finished model with a picture of the original and my sketches before I started building. The cabin was demolished c1968.

The model is about 36mm wide excluding the oil cupboard

A lovely looking model, it has great attention to detail.

richard

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19 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think you are right. Rolling stock will never be fully covered RTR. There are just too many variations and the chances of more than one or two of each type (for example, a Gresley Corridor Brake 3rd) being produced RTR are slim.

 

You could take this "right train" etc. to a highly impractical level, if you decide that you want all your locos and carriages to be the actual ones that appeared on those services on a particular day.

 

Has anybody done that?

 

I set my sights much lower in the make up of trains. If I have a train that could be right and has a loco that could well have hauled it, then that is close enough for me!

 

When you model pre-grouping and have to make everything, it is hard enough already without trying to research and identify which carriages were on which service on a specific day.

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

'You could take this "right train" etc. to a highly impractical level, if you decide that you want all your locos and carriages to be the actual ones that appeared on those services on a particular day.

 

Has anybody done that?'

 

In answer to your question, I don't know. 

 

I suppose if one were modelling, say, the branch from Gobowen to Oswestry in, say, 1965, then it might be very easy. The reason I say that is that my oldest friend and I travelled on it one day, about six return trips. Just to sample some steam-haulage. We'd hoped for a steamer between Chester and Gobowen, but the timings resulted in a DMU out, then a Brush 4 home. The motive power was an Ivatt 2-6-0 'Mickey Mouse' and two carriages - one of GWR origin and one BR, both gangwayed (if memory serves). It's probable that the whole day's services could be reproduced by using just RTR stuff. One loco; two carriages!

 

But, that's one extreme.

 

On the other hand, some time ago BRILL published an article where Peter Coster and Brian Bailey took a day out from Kings Cross to Grantham return, in the spring/early summer of 1959. Of course, I cannot now put my hand on the article, but I think it was a Saturday. The journey was broken at Peterborough, and the pair then took stoppers to Grantham, calling at (you've guessed it) Little Bytham (the intermediate stations were not long for this world). The list of locos and trains was staggering, including the prototype Deltic. Obviously, individual carriages in trains were not listed, but all the services were, including many extras. Without an aircraft hangar (small, to be fair), a bottomless wallet (even if one were to make masses oneself) and a lifetime stretching into Biblical terms (Methuselah), I reckon it would be all but impossible to recreate in model form. What location would one choose? Obviously, in my case, Little Bytham, but the fiddle yard needed to accommodate all the locos/trains (and, no messing about by using one rake to represent both Up and Down services of, say, 'The Queen of Scots' - oh no, two rakes!) would be vast (even if no yards were needed to represent the MR/M&GNR - closed by the spring of 1959). 

 

Even my building stuff over the last 45 years has resulted in my only scratching the surface! 

 

And, on that day, neither the A1/1 nor the W1 were seen (the latter probably withdrawn). I couldn't imagine a latter day ECML steam depiction without those two.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

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8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Bucoops,

 

The thread zips around so much, it is easy to get distracted from what is often the most interesting bits, such as your 'shortie' BG. I'm finding your modeling of great interest and look forwards to seeing more as it develops. Not being very clued up on the prototype, I can't wait to find out more about it.

 

Thanks Andrew, that means a lot coming from yourself.

 

I can't wait to find out more about the prototype too! You have kindly found a photo of one variant, I've managed to find one of another but so far the one I need has proven elusive! Perhaps I should take the ducket off and replace it with a piece of bead and just do the D111. Hmm.

 

Interestingly I studied the toplights a little more - the drawing shows them as all plain glass except the doors which show timber ventilators the same as passenger stock. The photo you found show what looks to be glass in the loading doors - the guard's door is of course open so can't be seen. The photo of the orignal version I found shows timber ventilators to ALL doors, and the etches are glass to the loading doors and timber vent to the guard door.

 

Alas progress will slow again for the moment as I have to do work work and I postively *hate* doing hinges which is the current task on the body. Fortunately only 54 on this one!

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19 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I find this sort of stuff fascinating; frequently getting in the way of doing any modelling.  As someone born post-1968 I find the lack of predictability of the steam era particularly interesting.  With no restriction on traction knowledge a driver could be presented with (virtually) anything.

 

I'm not totally sold on the unpredictability angle.  When talking to footplate crew it sounds like that, as they are picking a few anecdotes from across many years, Looking at observers records (observers make notes rather than spotters who cross things out) the norm was for the same locomotive to turn up on the same working day after day, there were exceptions, obviously and time and area can make a difference. Fitted freights between York and Woodford were pretty predictable for example. Ninety percent of the time it would be a York B16, occasionally a B1, V2 or a Thompson A2. The B16 is the one you should be modeling, representing the typical not the favourite the rare or the special.

 

The anecdote (from elsewhere) about a GC section driver blocking the entrance to Gorton depot by derailing a J6 as he wasn't familiar with the GN controls is even more peculiar to modern ears.

 

I would imagine a J6 was not so common around Manchester. Around Nottingham, a range of GNR O-6-0 tender engines were as common as muck. Anecdotally, the J6 seems to have been well liked, apart from the open cab when running in reverse.

 

Accuracy with regards to modelling can go too far.  Limit your choice of locos to a particular day and you'll find your favourites didn't run! Been there, got the t-shirt.

 

Not my thing, the right engine for the train will always my favourite.

'I'm not totally sold on the unpredictability angle.  When talking to footplate crew it sounds like that, as they are picking a few anecdotes from across many years, Looking at observers records (observers make notes rather than spotters who cross things out) the norm was for the same locomotive to turn up on the same working day after day, there were exceptions, obviously and time and area can make a difference. Fitted freights between York and Woodford were pretty predictable for example. Ninety percent of the time it would be a York B16, occasionally a B1, V2 or a Thompson A2. The B16 is the one you should be modeling, representing the typical not the favourite the rare or the special.'

 

I think your points are valid, Andrew,

 

However, what if one were modelling the stretch of line just within the city walls at Chester? Say, between Canal Street Bridge and Crane Street? Not today (that would be awful), but go back just over 62 years to a summer Saturday in August 1958. Yes, I was there, as a 'spotter. And, underlined was a Crosti 9F on empty stock! Two B1s and countless 'unexpected' locos from all over the place, including 8Fs on excursions. Yes, I agree, one should model the most-typical, but 'most-typical' at Chester on a summer Saturday in the '50s was 'anything goes'!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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19 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

Hi Tony and John

 

I too am lucky to have both. Having two dead end sets of sidings they become the destination station after a train has done so many laps. While zooming around I dispose of the any locos on the buffer stops, get a train ready to depart by shunting a loco on to the country end or just sit back and watch the trains in motion. Operation was high on my priorities. 

 

137341807_newmaster6insplatscenica.png.21b264a1c505816caf004f84e5662c4f.png

 

With it being an imaginary place I always have the right loco on the right train at the right time.

 

 

That does look like a good layout to operate.

 

I always look carefully at track plans to see how they might be operated and I can see lots of possibilities on that. Presumably a running session starts off with the trains at Doncaster and Manchester all pointing the right way and you could probably run the layout for several hours before you need to attend to them again.

 

I don't know if it is me missing something but I can't see a route for trains from Doncaster to Sheffield to run "right line". Is that how it is done or have I overlooked something.

 

The Manchester trains have a crossover to get them on the correct line but I can't see an equivalent on the Doncaster end.

 

Edit to add that if that is a slip at the double junction and the Doncaster trains do a full circuit, that works!

Cheers,

 

Tony

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2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

That does look like a good layout to operate.

 

I always look carefully at track plans to see how they might be operated and I can see lots of possibilities on that. Presumably a running session starts off with the trains at Doncaster and Manchester all pointing the right way and you could probably run the layout for several hours before you need to attend to them again.

 

I don't know if it is me missing something but I can't see a route for trains from Doncaster to Sheffield to run "right line". Is that how it is done or have I overlooked something.

 

The Manchester trains have a crossover to get them on the correct line but I can't see an equivalent on the Doncaster end.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

Thank you Tony,

 

There is a single slip at the junction where the GNR lines join the mainline so as trains leave Doncaster they cross over on to the main line.  I could have made life easier by placing the main lines outside the sidings but that would have obscured the view of the trains circulating. When designing the layout there wasn't enough room to fit in the more traditional loop type sidings and still have a reasonable length of platform. I think having two sets of dead end sidings has actually given me more operating scope.  

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2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Thanks Andrew, that means a lot coming from yourself.

 

I can't wait to find out more about the prototype too! You have kindly found a photo of one variant, I've managed to find one of another but so far the one I need has proven elusive! Perhaps I should take the ducket off and replace it with a piece of bead and just do the D111. Hmm.

 

Interestingly I studied the toplights a little more - the drawing shows them as all plain glass except the doors which show timber ventilators the same as passenger stock. The photo you found show what looks to be glass in the loading doors - the guard's door is of course open so can't be seen. The photo of the orignal version I found shows timber ventilators to ALL doors, and the etches are glass to the loading doors and timber vent to the guard door.

 

Alas progress will slow again for the moment as I have to do work work and I postively *hate* doing hinges which is the current task on the body. Fortunately only 54 on this one!

 

Good morning Bucoops,

 

there was quite a lot of variation in the LNER bogie brake vans, though there is a certain amount of linear development. The earlier ones had top lights to the double doors across a number of diagrams and a hooded ventilator above the guards doors. The ventilators were pressed steel like the duckets, as far as I recall, then painted to look like wood. Are you sure about the 54 door hinges, that sounds like a lot. I've recently done eighty on a twin, thats two carriages with a lot more doors than a BG.

 

I was looking at one of the bowstring Yorkie 56' 6'' type. It has the oval buffer heads as you mentioned earlier but the same early style top light arrangement, with a great big wooden headstock. I think the buffers  were a direct continuation of GN or ECJS practice, again a feature of the earliest diagrams. I will see if I have any photographs. Personally, I don't mind the sans duckett top light arrangement that you mention, highlighting variations works for me.

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

'I'm not totally sold on the unpredictability angle.  When talking to footplate crew it sounds like that, as they are picking a few anecdotes from across many years, Looking at observers records (observers make notes rather than spotters who cross things out) the norm was for the same locomotive to turn up on the same working day after day, there were exceptions, obviously and time and area can make a difference. Fitted freights between York and Woodford were pretty predictable for example. Ninety percent of the time it would be a York B16, occasionally a B1, V2 or a Thompson A2. The B16 is the one you should be modeling, representing the typical not the favourite the rare or the special.'

 

I think your points are valid, Andrew,

 

However, what if one were modelling the stretch of line just within the city walls at Chester? Say, between Canal Street Bridge and Crane Street? Not today (that would be awful), but go back just over 62 years to a summer Saturday in August 1958. Yes, I was there, as a 'spotter. And, underlined was a Crosti 9F on empty stock! Two B1s and countless 'unexpected' locos from all over the place, including 8Fs on excursions. Yes, I agree, one should model the most-typical, but 'most-typical' at Chester on a summer Saturday in the '50s was 'anything goes'!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

an equally valid point. However, I'm a weekday sort of person.

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On 11/09/2020 at 07:51, Northmoor said:

I haven't seen that statistic but since Hornby saved itself by moving into the high value "collectors" market instead of just the toy market, it is acknowledged that most collectors don't have a railway to run their models on. 

Equally, since it became possible to own what I'd once have regarded as fantastical numbers of quite decent locos (even if some prefer to "roll their own" on principle), the majority of modellers/runners don't have layouts large enough to accommodate more than a fraction of them at one time!

 

John

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I have found while spotting (70s and 80s) that the unusual was common.

 

The excursion was not that rare.

 

The unusual loco could be daily with different ones.

 

I found with North West/North East to South West services that there were patterns rather than anything else.

 

I saw more Eastern Region stock on these services than on the Eastern Region, and more of their 47s.

You would see at least 1 Midland Region mark 1 set and airbraked non aircon mark 2 set per session.

Most Peaks were seen except Midland Main Line pets.

 

So seeing say an ECML aircon set heading off to Cardiff was seen often but not all the time.

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Interesting comments about modelling the typical.

 

Back in our last few weeks at primary school, two pals used to race down to Axminster station to see the 4.07pm semi-fast arrival from Waterloo. The usual loco was 35007 Aberdeen Commonwealth. However, it was noticeable that, on days it wasn't, the substitute was also consistent; 35004 Cunard White Star

 

I remember keeping a note (long since lost, but not forgotten) of the loco on the weekday train over a four week period in 1961. Over the twenty days, 35007 turned up on fifteen, 35004 on four, and (IIRC) 35002 Union Castle on the other one.

 

That said, Nine Elms seems to have habitually sent Bournemouth locos to Exeter and vice versa; to the extent that during that summer and the following two, I noted all the 140 Bulleid Pacifics bar one through my home station. 

 

The exception was 34103 Calstock, which I saw in several other places, but never Axminster. Various friends have, over the years, taken some delight in pointing out apparently commonplace pictures of it passing Chard Junction on down trains....

 

John

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

However, what if one were modelling the stretch of line just within the city walls at Chester? Say, between Canal Street Bridge and Crane Street? Not today (that would be awful), but go back just over 62 years to a summer Saturday in August 1958. Yes, I was there, as a 'spotter. And, underlined was a Crosti 9F on empty stock! Two B1s and countless 'unexpected' locos from all over the place, including 8Fs on excursions. Yes, I agree, one should model the most-typical, but 'most-typical' at Chester on a summer Saturday in the '50s was 'anything goes'!

 

Here's a question Tony.

 

From reading the above; if you had the chance to re-live your spotting experiences for one day, where would it be and when?  Would you prefer to experience a period before you were born?  As you and others have said before, the variety of traction and rolling stock in the days of steam was simply staggering compared to now (I was born in the 1970s, so missed it all....).

 

Rob

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

go back just over 62 years to a summer Saturday in August 1958. Yes, I was there, as a 'spotter. And, underlined was a Crosti 9F on empty stock! Two B1s and countless 'unexpected' locos from all over the place, including 8Fs on excursions.

 

Good Morning Tony,

 

Does the above mean that you still have your spotter's manuals from all those years ago? 

 

Archie

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

'I'm not totally sold on the unpredictability angle.  When talking to footplate crew it sounds like that, as they are picking a few anecdotes from across many years, Looking at observers records (observers make notes rather than spotters who cross things out) the norm was for the same locomotive to turn up on the same working day after day, there were exceptions, obviously and time and area can make a difference. Fitted freights between York and Woodford were pretty predictable for example. Ninety percent of the time it would be a York B16, occasionally a B1, V2 or a Thompson A2. The B16 is the one you should be modeling, representing the typical not the favourite the rare or the special.'

 

I think your points are valid, Andrew,

 

However, what if one were modelling the stretch of line just within the city walls at Chester? Say, between Canal Street Bridge and Crane Street? Not today (that would be awful), but go back just over 62 years to a summer Saturday in August 1958. Yes, I was there, as a 'spotter. And, underlined was a Crosti 9F on empty stock! Two B1s and countless 'unexpected' locos from all over the place, including 8Fs on excursions. Yes, I agree, one should model the most-typical, but 'most-typical' at Chester on a summer Saturday in the '50s was 'anything goes'!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

No argument with your statements. I am lucky in some ways in having a fictitious location my operating sessions can be the daily comings and goings or the delight of a summer Saturday with the residents of Sheffield going away for a week at such exotic locations like Blackpool or Cleethorpes. I have even had sessions where I have not filled the fiddle yards to their maximum capacity and I have kept the DMUs very short representing the decline leading up to closure.

 

What I do try to represent is the types of locomotives and DMUs that would have operated over the former L&YR lines crossing from one side of the Pennines to the other and the types that were at home on the GNR lines. I know I have made believe there are services to and from Grimbsy and Cleethorpes, and I don't have any GCR types but they do have LNER designed locos when steam is the order of the day. I also add a few North Eastern Region locos into the mix on the York and Leeds trains but B16s did tend to wander about a tad.

 

Sometimes the devil takes over and all of a sudden Exchange has imaginary OLE and 3rd rail or even Western Region diesels. Where is the fun in adhering to self imposed strict rules.  

 

I always have the right DMU for the right train in the right time frame.

 

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

My, doesn't this thread fly!

 

Many thanks for all the recent posts showing incredible examples of modelling. 

 

Yesterday, I spent my time with a camcorder getting moving footage of Retford. This is for the forthcoming BRM 'virtual exhibition' in November. Many thanks for your time and patience, Sandra (social distancing was not a problem!). The layout performed impeccably (and it wasn't just trains whizzing round). 

 

I also took the opportunity to get some more stills..............

 

673613696_Retford1392004A2.jpg.3e4d39c1c9b7659766c120d02f281bcd.jpg

 

Sandra is building locomotives for the layout. This will become BRONZINO when completed.

 

1304772467_Retford1392002D11.jpg.f5f3fd1189ff3577d7f22b0973affb36.jpg

 

Despite claims to the contrary, the little red-clad schoolboy is not a representation of me (my school uniform was dark blue). 

 

Class D11 62661 GERARD POWYS DEWHURST takes the road towards Gainsborough on a Sheffield-Lincoln service (please, note the lamp!). 

 

2100182882_Retford1392008B17.jpg.2ff6534856cdb2fb83f22e4f4de62f31.jpg

 

Class B17 61661 SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY takes the North Country Continental boat train eastwards across the flat crossing (I only ever remember small-tender B17s on this). 

 

I know there are some wonderful 'made-up' layouts out there, depicting imaginary or might have been locations, but one can never beat 'the real thing' in my view.

 

Not when it's modelled as well as this!  

 

 

 

A pot of paint could soon make that uniform blue Tony.

 

If you wore your uniform on the platform at Retford, that could well become a young you!

 

Did you draw attention to the lamp on the D11 for a particular reason? Is it because of the very unusual handle, from side to side instead of front to back?

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3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Bucoops,

 

there was quite a lot of variation in the LNER bogie brake vans, though there is a certain amount of linear development. The earlier ones had top lights to the double doors across a number of diagrams and a hooded ventilator above the guards doors. The ventilators were pressed steel like the duckets, as far as I recall, then painted to look like wood. Are you sure about the 54 door hinges, that sounds like a lot. I've recently done eighty on a twin, thats two carriages with a lot more doors than a BG.

 

I was looking at one of the bowstring Yorkie 56' 6'' type. It has the oval buffer heads as you mentioned earlier but the same early style top light arrangement, with a great big wooden headstock. I think the buffers  were a direct continuation of GN or ECJS practice, again a feature of the earliest diagrams. I will see if I have any photographs. Personally, I don't mind the sans duckett top light arrangement that you mention, highlighting variations works for me.

Without knowing which BG thiscrefers to 54 sounds about right with 3 hinges per door, a couple of sets of double doors for the luggage compartment, a gaurds door and 5 compartments that would do it.  When I etched the sides for some NBR 6 wheelers the number of doors on IIRC the luggage composite, amazed me.

 

Jamie

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19 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Without knowing which BG thiscrefers to 54 sounds about right with 3 hinges per door, a couple of sets of double doors for the luggage compartment, a gaurds door and 5 compartments that would do it.  When I etched the sides for some NBR 6 wheelers the number of doors on IIRC the luggage composite, amazed me.

 

Jamie

 

Afternoon Jamie,

 

I may be missing something but there only seems to be four doors per side with external door hinges. You can discount the Guards doors, both open inwards. Even if hinges are added to the gangway doors that is still short of 54. I suspect there is the possibility that B cups typed 54 instead of 24. I don't think many people add them to the gangway doors, that would be unhinged. Ho ho ho.

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6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

673613696_Retford1392004A2.jpg.3e4d39c1c9b7659766c120d02f281bcd.jpg

 

Sandra is building locomotives for the layout. This will become BRONZINO when completed.

 

 

Another Bronzino - I've often wondered why DJH didn't provide the parts to make the MLS regulator versions. I know they're possible to scratch build.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Bucoops,

 

there was quite a lot of variation in the LNER bogie brake vans, though there is a certain amount of linear development. The earlier ones had top lights to the double doors across a number of diagrams and a hooded ventilator above the guards doors. The ventilators were pressed steel like the duckets, as far as I recall, then painted to look like wood. Are you sure about the 54 door hinges, that sounds like a lot. I've recently done eighty on a twin, thats two carriages with a lot more doors than a BG.

 

I was looking at one of the bowstring Yorkie 56' 6'' type. It has the oval buffer heads as you mentioned earlier but the same early style top light arrangement, with a great big wooden headstock. I think the buffers  were a direct continuation of GN or ECJS practice, again a feature of the earliest diagrams. I will see if I have any photographs. Personally, I don't mind the sans duckett top light arrangement that you mention, highlighting variations works for me.

 

 

Hi Andrew, no, I typo'd the hinge count it would seem. A mere 24 not 54. I still hate them though. I intend to spend some evenings trawling books for a D154. Else I think I shall have to go down the 111 route. Not giving up yet.

 

The buffers certainly seem to be a continuation of GN practice. I know some of the Quintet sets for the GE section also had the same heads - but without the retractable facility that the vestibuled coaches had. Others had plain round heads. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Jamie,

 

I may be missing something but there only seems to be four doors per side with external door hinges. You can discount the Guards doors, both open inwards. Even if hinges are added to the gangway doors that is still short of 54. I suspect there is the possibility that B cups typed 54 instead of 24. I don't think many people add them to the gangway doors, that would be unhinged. Ho ho ho.

 

B Cups? I feel a right t*t now. Possibly a left one too ;)

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6 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Here's a question Tony.

 

From reading the above; if you had the chance to re-live your spotting experiences for one day, where would it be and when?  Would you prefer to experience a period before you were born?  As you and others have said before, the variety of traction and rolling stock in the days of steam was simply staggering compared to now (I was born in the 1970s, so missed it all....).

 

Rob

An easy question to answer, Rob.

 

Doncaster, on a weekday during the summer holidays in 1958. I'd just finished junior school and was anticipating 'big' school and my 12th birthday. 

 

Within ten minutes of getting on to the station, I'd seen 60024 (fresh from the Plant), 60027 (on the Down 'Lizzie), 60094 (waiting to go to the works, if memory serves), 60102 and 61212 light engines, 60111 on an Up express and 62722 coming in from Hull. That was after seeing 60008 and 70003 outside the paintshop! The rest of the day was just a marvellous blur..........

 

Oh to have had a camcorder and digital camera!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

A pot of paint could soon make that uniform blue Tony.

 

If you wore your uniform on the platform at Retford, that could well become a young you!

 

Did you draw attention to the lamp on the D11 for a particular reason? Is it because of the very unusual handle, from side to side instead of front to back?

The lamp was based on a picture during the loco's time on the CLC, so it's obviously the wrong pattern for Retford. 

 

And, no; I never wore my school uniform when 'spotting at Retford. It was only ever in the holidays............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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