Wright writes.....

[Chamby]

21 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Clive,

 

thirds, fourths, fifths. Surely you forgotten, time, money, space and unlimited rice pudding? As for solo efforts, they were finished decades ago. I have had no desire for pressing the repeat button. I'm quite happy to say that I have achieved exactly what I set out to do in the hobby. As I approach the Autumn, I am jolly well content that things are winding their way down to a natural conclusion.

 

In model railways we have rule No.1, surely that make all the others rather pointless?

[Headstock]

11 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

In model railways we have rule No.1, surely that make all the others rather pointless?

 

Afternoon Chamby,

 

do you mean the "it's my cat and I'll call it what I like" rule, to quote, or misquote from 'Whistle down the wind'? I Don't subscribe to the rule of We, my cats all named themselves by spinning a bottle. There was, Chair leg, electrical socket, Carpet fluff, Buz and Houdini. An ex girlfriend's cat was called Spider though.

[Porcy Mane]

On 23/09/2020 at 14:48, CF MRC said:

When we visited Germany with CF, quite a few years ago, a couple of times we heard “I remember this - from up here!”

 

 

"To day ve vill bomba Meeses Lopsided's allotment."

 

No wonder they lost.

 

P

[Barry Ten]

8 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Nice. Now you need to make a squadron of them and an aircraft carrier for them to go on. Or perhaps you already have. 

 

 

 

 

Indeed - the Phantom is just one of an Air Wing to go on a carrier. 

[MJI]

My part constructed railway started as a portable 4x4 foot boards with a loco 4 loco station.

 

It is getting rebuilt into a smallish through station served by DMUs, the expresses will pile through.

 

It will be based on Bristol Birmingham line.

[Barry O]

Although I avoid spending too much time worrying about the length of trains on Grantham the Silver Jubilee and Coronation sets have no "missing" coaches. I am certain @jwealleans can explain more about train lengths.

 

Not everyone can have an exact scale length model of a particular place..odd bits of track/sidings become reduced/omitted to fit the available space.

 

Herculaneum Dock has less goods sidings but..the mainline rakes are taken from WTT and photographs were available.. but these trains were shorter than those from Liverpool Lime Street for example.

 

Chapel en le Frith (Central) has full length coaching rakes..again no hugely long coaching rakes on the Peak.

 

My loft layout makes use of a space too small for a Chapel en le Frith, Herculaneum Dock or Grantham. It will make use of sets which fit the platforms and storage sidings.. typically about the same length as a 6 car Trans Pennine Unit.

 

Like Herculaneum Dock  (which has trains from Central passing through it) and Chapel..trains going towards Manchester in the first instance and Derby in the second instance had trains which grew going away from Manchester and Derby (for St Pancras) mean the real railway already undertook some train length reduction...

 

The rule of rwo thirds seems to be a problem to some..but if you haven't got the space and want to model a prototype location how would others do it??

 

Baz

Edited September 24, 2020 by Barry O

[CUTLER2579]

Headstock said :- An ex girlfriend's cat was called Spider though.

Her surname was obviously Webb.

[Headstock]

36 minutes ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Headstock said :- An ex girlfriend's cat was called Spider though.

Her surname was obviously Webb.

 

Mann.

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I hole heartedly agree with you as regards the contrast between 3d and 2d space

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

I can tell that LB doesn't use the rule of thirds, it looks right! The rule of thirds when applied to the longest trains, not only looks too artificially convenient in the space, it mostly results in wee willy winky trains. Superb layout though Grantham is, the trains look a bit short. Did they not require extending for the LB LNER weekend?

 

 

I don't agree with that, As TBG has pointed out, there are plenty of prototypical examples were that notion would work fine.

Good evening Andrew,

 

'Did they not require extending for the LB LNER weekend?'

 

I think some of the trains were extended to full length for the '38 weekend, two years ago. 

 

 

At least 13 on here.............

 

 

I think the Scotch Goods had more on on LB than normally seen on Grantham. 

 

Doesn't this shot look bare without the completed point rodding?

 

 

I think this rake was made up to 14 in total.............

 

Actually, Little Bytham is probably a bit shorter overall than Grantham, but the fiddle yard arrangement is different. Different inasmuch as as the longest trains from 1958 can be accommodated with ease. 12-, 13- and 14-coach trains fit easily, and there's actually enough space for a couple more carriages as well! 

 

The length of the fiddle yard roads is often the limiting factor regarding any train lengths. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Actually, come to think about it..................

 

If, say, the prototype train you're modelling has a certain number of cars in reality..................... In my case, 'The Master Cutler' has six, 'The Tees-Tyne Pullman' has eight, 'The Elizabethan' has ten, 'The Queen of Scots' ten, 'The Yorkshire Pullman' 11, 'The Flying Scotsman' 12, 'The West Riding' 13 and so on................................ 

 

How can they be 'wrong'? 

 

They might look 'too long' on a foreshortened layout, but they're still 'right'. Aren't they? 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Headstock]

10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Andrew,

 

'Did they not require extending for the LB LNER weekend?'

 

I think some of the trains were extended to full length for the '38 weekend, two years ago. 

 

At least 13 on here.............

 

I think the Scotch Goods had more on on LB than normally seen on Grantham. 

 

Doesn't this shot look bare without the completed point rodding?

 

I think this rake was made up to 14 in total.............

 

Actually, Little Bytham is probably a bit shorter overall than Grantham, but the fiddle yard arrangement is different. Different inasmuch as as the longest trains from 1958 can be accommodated with ease. 12-, 13- and 14-coach trains fit easily, and there's actually enough space for a couple more carriages as well! 

 

The length of the fiddle yard roads is often the limiting factor regarding any train lengths. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

I quite agree, the fiddle yard capacity. It's my main concern pertaining to the physical properties of a layout, then track layout conditions that may be relevant to the length of a train on the scenic section. The other considerations are freight and passenger train documentation and photographs. So armed, it then comes back again to informed decisions.

[Andy Hayter]

6 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I can see the point of the rule of thirds but surely it depends on the prototype location or more often, the typical location on which the model is based.  If you model a rural section of the ECML, you need a long gap between scenic breaks (as done so well on LB) but model the station throat at Kings Cross and you won't get a full length train between Gasworks Tunnel and the overall roof.  In urban environments, there are countless locations where the normal length train is longer then the "gap", so I think you can get away with it in an urban model.  Urban land is expensive, so the infrastructure is squeezed in; at city stations trains often almost fill the whole platform length. 

 

 

You are right, but at the same time, in terms of an interesting layout, I humbly suggest, wrong.

 

My first and aborted layout was to have been based on York Queen Street just inside the city walls (the arch acting as the scenic break.)  However before I got very far I realised the operational potential was as near zero as made no difference.  Train leaves fiddle yard, through arch into station at most 10 seconds later.  Stop.  Uncouple loco. remove stock to fiddle yard.  Reverse loco to fiddle yard.  Repeat.

 

I think KX would be pretty much the same.  More lines.  More platforms.  Same complete lack of operation.  

[Porcy Mane]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 'The Queen of Scots' ten,

 

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

How can they be 'wrong'? 

 

Depends on the location. North of Leeds, I'll take eight. Unless the occasional strengthener had been added. Or the occasional BG come to that.

 

P

Edited September 24, 2020 by Porcy Mane
Misquote & poor maths.

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Headstock said :- An ex girlfriend's cat was called Spider though.

Her surname was obviously Webb.

My army nickname was/is Spider (still used by some).

 

When attached to the Royal Artillery if I was part of a team with members of one of the regiments battery's a Craftsman Webb would appear on battery orders.

[Clive Mortimore]

5 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Clive,

 

thirds, fourths, fifths. Surely you forgotten, time, money, space and unlimited rice pudding? As for solo efforts, they were finished decades ago. I have had no desire for pressing the repeat button. I'm quite happy to say that I have achieved exactly what I set out to do in the hobby. As I approach the Autumn, I am jolly well content that things are winding their way down to a natural conclusion.

Andrew

 

If you have no desire to have another go, then please don't tell others they are wrong.

[john new]

There comes a problem of knowledge versus what can initially look correct. Back in the late 1980s I was planning a garage based layout based on Goathland in NYMR days and after setting out various train lengths was satisfied that 5 coaches looked like a long enough train to represent the 7, occasional 8, of the NYMR. Watching several videos of garden layouts in 00 recently confirms that 5 looks superficially OK.

 

Then come the anomalies, for example, you can't have a 5TC/33 combo' they have to be 4 or 8 or they look stupid to anyone who knows. Yes, I do know there were a very few odd ball units in the various transition eras, for example I have a photo of a 3TC set in the Weymouth electrification era but applying a rule of thirds just won't work. 

 

The more you learn, the more you have to decide if the suggested compromise is acceptable to you? As an example I know that some of the Kitmaster wagons have the wrong brake gear, I can live with them built as is because I hardly notice the brake gear, symbolic is near enough. 

[Theakerr]

I have sort of followed the rule of thirds in that no train is longer than a 1/3 of the visible layout.  I have also used compression in that New Waltham station is about 2 coaches short.  This means that a 9/10 coach train of Mk1s sticks out of the platform just as it should for Grimsby (and Lincoln)  where many trains would result in the level crossing being closed for an extended time much to the frustration of motorists.   Also, because I don't model exact consists (I rather remember the Cleethorpes to London/Peterborough trains being made up of what was available and anticipated passenger load), I can use a smaller full brake to make up a 10 coach set  whereas the real thing would normally be an 11/13 coach set.   I can also run a coal train with about 40 wagons.  I do find it interesting and this is where I tend to hold to the rule of thirds is that a 10 coach train or 38 wagons looks OK (to me) but go to an 11 coach train or 45 wagons and it looks wrong.

[Headstock]

19 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Andrew

 

If you have no desire to have another go, then please don't tell others they are wrong.

 

Your wrong Clive but don't worry, I suddenly have this overwhelming desire to have another go!

Edited September 24, 2020 by Headstock

[Bucoops]

The only Spider Webb I know of was a drummer. Not sure if anyone will "get" who I mean!

[Tony Wright]

47 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

 

Depends on the location. North of Leeds, I'll take six. Unless the occasional strengthener had been added. Or the occasional BG come to that.

 

P

The 'Queen of Scots' was reduced to eight cars north of Leeds, and the 'Yorkshire Pullman' 'scattered' at Doncaster, Wakefield and Leeds.

 

I was counting cars at Little Bytham, of course.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[James Fitzjames]

11 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

The only Spider Webb I know of was a drummer. Not sure if anyone will "get" who I mean!

Something Rice, soul man?

[FoxUnpopuli]

12 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

The only Spider Webb I know of was a drummer. Not sure if anyone will "get" who I mean!

 

Vim: "Every time I sing the lyrics 'eat my brain', my rectum goes into prolapse."

Spider: "Can we get a nappy?  Can we get a nappy roadie?"

[Manxcat]

15 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

The only Spider Webb I know of was a drummer. Not sure if anyone will "get" who I mean!

 

The American jazz drummer, now 76 years old and real name Kenneth Rice?

[Bucoops]

15 minutes ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

 

Vim: "Every time I sing the lyrics 'eat my brain', my rectum goes into prolapse."

Spider: "Can we get a nappy?  Can we get a nappy roadie?"

 

Yay someone knows who I mean alas most of the quotes are unprintable.

[Bucoops]

12 minutes ago, Manxcat said:

 

The American jazz drummer, now 76 years old and real name Kenneth Rice?

 

No but it's interesting to know there was another, thank you.