Wright writes.....

[Clive Mortimore]

I like captions which go like this. The loco in the background is a class XYZ, number 12345, ex big four railway number 9876, renumbered a long time ago. Built even longer ago, withdrawn soon after this photo was taken, scrapped a bit later in some place you wouldn't go after dark. Was allocated to too many sheds to bother listing all of them. In front of it is a DMU.

 

It is obvious the photo was of the DMU, nothing about what type, or what duty it is on.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I like captions which go like this. The loco in the background is a class XYZ, number 12345, ex big four railway number 9876, renumbered a long time ago. Built even longer ago, withdrawn soon after this photo was taken, scrapped a bit later in some place you wouldn't go after dark. Was allocated to too many sheds to bother listing all of them. In front of it is a DMU.

 

It is obvious the photo was of the DMU, nothing about what type, or what duty it is on.

 

Not so sure I agree. Almost everything of interest in the photo goes unremarked upon apart from the subject, which is (a) obscuring the interesting stuff (b) is the subject of numerous other photos (c) is already very well documented and (d) is given no context.

[ScRSG]

To go back to the topic about train lengths and layouts to scale, here is a pic of current progress on Larbert, the long platforms are to scale length, can you spot the two car DMU?

 

 

Chas

[grob1234]

13 minutes ago, ScRSG said:

To go back to the topic about train lengths and layouts to scale, here is a pic of current progress on Larbert, the long platforms are to scale length, can you spot the two car DMU?

 

 

Chas

 

That looks very nice indeed. Do you have a layout thread?

[ScRSG]

17 minutes ago, grob1234 said:

 

That looks very nice indeed. Do you have a layout thread?

 

 Yes, https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106627-larbert/

 

 

Chas

[polybear]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I don't think I'd mind, but when reviewing a recent set of books, I commented on the fact that the (brilliant) images all showed the loco sheds mentioned in the text, but they were all jumbled up, the publisher was extremely irate! I doubt if I'll ever see any of his books again..................

 

If only the publisher had the common sense to submit a book for review before they carried out the production run....

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for all the comments today regarding books, and their captions. 

 

A brilliant one I've just looked at (or at least it is to me) describes the Metro-Vic Co-Bos in the greatest detail I think I've ever seen for any class. For anyone making a model (or modifying one) of the class (not that I'll ever do) it'll be invaluable. It's sure to become a standard work.

 

Which is what we already have with regards to the likes of the A3s - the RCTS, Yeadon and Irwell have chapter and verse on the class, most, if not all, of it accurate (the RCTS cannot tell a 94HP boiler from a 94A one - neither can Peter Coster in his first book of the A3s). I've just been proofing the forthcoming 'album' on A3s by Irwell (to be published this autumn) and (I hope) I've been able to enlarge on the captions (and also point out that no 'banjo' dome was ever fitted to a BR A3!). It's really to be of assistance to modellers and also to comment further on the locations and the trains (how does one tell if a Pullman car is all-steel or wooden-bodied, clad in aluminium? Or whether the brake car at the head of a Pullman train has been rebuilt from a Kitchen Car - all good stuff). 

 

Now, where did I put my red pen? 

[Theakerr]

'so writing something that looks like a well informed caption is a quick and easy answer!'  I think this is a big part of the problem together with reliable sources departing this earth.   I started to see this phenomena in Science before I left and now see it many walks of life.   Basically it seems that Society, including publishers  want a quick and easy answer and if an  individual who is 'dynamic, authoritative, positive, charismatic, go go go etc' gives them one, they and the Great Unwashed Public (My Wife just hates when I use that expression) will be believed.  Just so much easier for everyone. 

[Tony Wright]

A socially-distancing friend came round today, bringing with him some most-interesting locos.

 

Including.......................

 

 

An Alan Gibson F6.

 

 

A Crownline J19.

 

 

A Nu-Cast Scottish K2.

 

 

And a Stephen Poole F5. 

 

My friend had built the J19 and he's painted the others. All of them have needed a tweak here and there to get them to run really sweetly and (in the case of the two 2-4-2Ts, to go round curves of less than six feet!). I'm glad to say I was able to help him in getting good running from them, and he gave a most-generous donation to CRUK. Which is good, because I've sent so little to the charity this year.......................

 

I think it's a safe bet that none of these loco types is ever likely to be made available RTR, but who knows? 

 

 

 

 

[PupCam]

I acquired Vols 1 & 2 of Peter Coster's  "The Book of the Great Northern, The Mainline, An Engineering Commentary" shortly after they emerged.  

 

I seem to recall a lot of criticism (certainly within the GNRS of which I was a member) of the books short comings and inaccuracies but I think I must have been looking at different books!   I find them to be a fascinating, informative and in the case of the north London / Hertfordshire entries nostalgic books.  Yes I'm sure there are errors but they are certainly by far the best books on the subject that I have ever come across.  What do you mean there are no other books on the subject? - Exactly!  I often find myself plucking one of them from the bookshelf for a few minutes pondering, something which can't be said for the vast majority of books in my fairly extensive book collection that continue to gather dust. 

 

I'm also amused to see that in the photograph of  Welwyn North's car park in Vol 2, the Austin Seven Mini's registration number is numerically less than ten from that of my first car, an Austin Seven Mini that I purchased from a private seller less than two miles from that very station!

 

Whilst we are on about inaccuracies and Bloopers,  I purchased a copy of "Diesel Dawn - 1 Deltics" at the Stevenage exhibition in January and I quote from the first page;  "... and the petrol (Napier) 'Sabre' famously powered the Gloster 'Typhoon', built from 1941". 

 

It didn't, it powered the Hawker Typhoon albeit built at Gloster's Hucclecote works as a matter of wartime expediency, aided by the fact that Gloster were actually part of the ever-growing Hawker establishment by then.   Many years later Gloster's produced the Gloster Javelin which entered service as Britain's first operational delta winged aircraft.  It was never a Hawker Javelin ......

 

Nevertheless, some fabulous photographs of Deltics to which I'm very partial!

 

Alan

[Clive Mortimore]

21 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks for all the comments today regarding books, and their captions. 

 

A brilliant one I've just looked at (or at least it is to me) describes the Metro-Vic Co-Bos in the greatest detail I think I've ever seen for any class. For anyone making a model (or modifying one) of the class (not that I'll ever do) it'll be invaluable. It's sure to become a standard work.

 

Which is what we already have with regards to the likes of the A3s - the RCTS, Yeadon and Irwell have chapter and verse on the class, most, if not all, of it accurate (the RCTS cannot tell a 94HP boiler from a 94A one - neither can Peter Coster in his first book of the A3s). I've just been proofing the forthcoming 'album' on A3s by Irwell (to be published this autumn) and (I hope) I've been able to enlarge on the captions (and also point out that no 'banjo' dome was ever fitted to a BR A3!). It's really to be of assistance to modellers and also to comment further on the locations and the trains (how does one tell if a Pullman car is all-steel or wooden-bodied, clad in aluminium? Or whether the brake car at the head of a Pullman train has been rebuilt from a Kitchen Car - all good stuff). 

 

Now, where did I put my red pen? 

Good evening Mr Wright

 

Why not? I might finish these two one day.

[Tony Wright]

3 minutes ago, Theakerr said:

'so writing something that looks like a well informed caption is a quick and easy answer!'  I think this is a big part of the problem together with reliable sources departing this earth.   I started to see this phenomena in Science before I left and now see it many walks of life.   Basically it seems that Society, including publishers  want a quick and easy answer and if an  individual who is 'dynamic, authoritative, positive, charismatic, go go go etc' gives them one, they and the Great Unwashed Public (My Wife just hates when I use that expression) will be believed.  Just so much easier for everyone. 

I wish that writing a well-informed caption would be quick and easy................. I note your speech marks. 

 

I don't think it's a phenomenon that problems arise with 'reliable sources' departing this earth'. Many unreliable (very-unreliable) sources have also succumbed to mortality. 

 

I think the problem with many more-recent book captions is that the writer just 'plagiarises' the 'established works', particularly with regard to locos' build/withdrawal dates. It's quick, it's easy and it's lazy.

 

Another problem is the writers don't use their eyes................

 

In a pictorial book I'm just reviewing, the very first image (which is superbly reproduced, as are all the rest) relates to an A2/3. What does the caption writer refer to? The 'grey/black smoke' coming from her double chimney (caused by poor coal). The author suggests that the loco 'prepares to depart'. However, look again. How could it depart in reverse gear? What's really happening is that the loco is just setting back to its train (a loco change?), and it's in reverse. It's also carrying a 'tail' lamp on it's RH lower lamp bracket. 

 

Look some more. The first carriage is a brand new Mk.1, running on Commonwealth bogies. And, also look at the electric warning flashes, so how can it be in 1960? 

 

If I'd written the caption (not that my caption-writing is that good) I'd have gone through my sources and found out which Up trains stopped at York in the mid-afternoon (the smokebox is in full illumination) and changed locos. That way, it then might have been possible to identify the actual service. Who needs to be told about the smoke?

 

The second picture (also taken at York) shows 60066 running non-stop through the great train shed heading north. I know it's a 'passenger express', but I also know it's the Down morning 'Talisman'. How? Through the scrutiny of records. 

 

This could have been a brilliant book, and I did enjoy looking at the superb pictures. But, what an opportunity missed..............

 

 

[Tony Wright]

9 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Good evening Mr Wright

 

Why not? I might finish these two one day.

Why not?

 

Come on Clive!

 

How common were these duds along the ECML? I never saw one other than in the North West, and most of those were laid up. One stuttered across the Kent Estuary at Arnside in 1967, and that was about it. 

 

When I next see you, I'll give you the book.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

18 minutes ago, PupCam said:

I acquired Vols 1 & 2 of Peter Coster's  "The Book of the Great Northern, The Mainline, An Engineering Commentary" shortly after they emerged.  

 

I seem to recall a lot of criticism (certainly within the GNRS of which I was a member) of the books short comings and inaccuracies but I think I must have been looking at different books!   I find them to be a fascinating, informative and in the case of the north London / Hertfordshire entries nostalgic books.  Yes I'm sure there are errors but they are certainly by far the best books on the subject that I have ever come across.  What do you mean there are no other books on the subject? - Exactly!  I often find myself plucking one of them from the bookshelf for a few minutes pondering, something which can't be said for the vast majority of books in my fairly extensive book collection that continue to gather dust. 

 

I'm also amused to see that in the photograph of  Welwyn North's car park in Vol 2, the Austin Seven Mini's registration number is numerically less than ten from that of my first car, an Austin Seven Mini that I purchased from a private seller less than two miles from that very station!

 

Whilst we are on about inaccuracies and Bloopers,  I purchased a copy of "Diesel Dawn - 1 Deltics" at the Stevenage exhibition in January and I quote from the first page;  "... and the petrol (Napier) 'Sabre' famously powered the Gloster 'Typhoon', built from 1941". 

 

It didn't, it powered the Hawker Typhoon albeit built at Gloster's Hucclecote works as a matter of wartime expediency, aided by the fact that Gloster were actually part of the ever-growing Hawker establishment by then.   Many years later Gloster's produced the Gloster Javelin which entered service as Britain's first operational delta winged aircraft.  It was never a Hawker Javelin ......

 

Nevertheless, some fabulous photographs of Deltics to which I'm very partial!

 

Alan

'Whilst we are on about inaccuracies and Bloopers,  I purchased a copy of "Diesel Dawn - 1 Deltics" at the Stevenage exhibition in January and I quote from the first page;  "... and the petrol (Napier) 'Sabre' famously powered the Gloster 'Typhoon', built from 1941". '

 

Not guilty! It was the other guy...................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[PupCam]

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Not guilty! It was the other guy...................

 

I thought as much!

 

At the same exhibition and from the same stand I also bought a copy of "Deltics - A Personal Recollection". 

 

When I got home I found it went very well with the copy I already had - Doh!

[t-b-g]

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

'Whilst we are on about inaccuracies and Bloopers,  I purchased a copy of "Diesel Dawn - 1 Deltics" at the Stevenage exhibition in January and I quote from the first page;  "... and the petrol (Napier) 'Sabre' famously powered the Gloster 'Typhoon', built from 1941". '

 

Not guilty! It was the other guy...................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

It is not really that much of a blooper. The Typhoon, which was designed at Hawker but was actually built by Gloster, entered service in 1941 and was powered by a Napier "Sabre" engine.

[Clive Mortimore]

22 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Why not?

 

Come on Clive!

 

How common were these duds along the ECML? I never saw one other than in the North West, and most of those were laid up. One stuttered across the Kent Estuary at Arnside in 1967, and that was about it. 

 

When I next see you, I'll give you the book.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thank you Tony.

 

The reason the Bo-Cos have been low on my priority list to finish, not many were seen in ER North London loco depots or hanging around Sheffield. I have  Hornby Doublo model as well. I did have another part built plastic card one, not sure what I done with that, possibly scrapped. I purchased a nearly finished kit one, white metal ends and brass sides. It wasn't a MTK model as it was square and the sides were the same length, or a Dave Alexander kit, they were white metal (and square). I am unsure of its origin, I did motorise it before it was sold on.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[john new]

As a Society Journal Editor I can see both sides of this captions debate as have to add them into each edition and I sometimes have to write them. Usually they come in from the article author with the pictures, often what they are about is outside my area of expertise, if someone provides something along the lines of these spurious examples that it is a modified sub-Class XYZ EMU, or a GWR Broad Gauge **** class heading east through ????? in 18**, 19** or 20** they are completely outside my area of expertise so I have to take their word for it. Where I do know a fair bit about something, or it just doesn't read right, I have been known to ask for clarification. What editors don't have time to do most of the time is get an article peer-reviewed for most of the type of minutiae error being criticised, even if they have an idea of who that peer-reviewer should be. 

 

As an example of the above practical constraints in action in the latest edition the caption accompanying an image reads - Class 105 DMU at Kings Cross, York Rd station on 31 October 1976, the last day of diesel services to Moorgate. I know enough to confirm it is K+ York Rd and that the train is southbound as described, further confirmed by the visible destination blind reading Moorgate. I am sure someone could have told me it was probably a train from [Insert originating station name]. The reader can tell from the lighting angle it was a morning service so adding that would have been fill text for text's sake. The crucial thing though was the document was already overdue at the printer, this was an infill, but relevant, stock source image needed to fill a 1/3rd page slot left over where the previous feature had only run to 1 2/3rd pages. There was not time to seek any more advice.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by john new
To make better sense.

[Mike 84C]

A J19? it looks like a bitza this and that. I'm sure someone will tell me all about them 'cos it's a new one to me.

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Thank you Tony.

 

The reason the Bo-Cos have been low on my priority list to finish, not many were seen in ER North London loco depots or hanging around Sheffield. I have  Hornby Doublo model as well. I did have another part built plastic card one, not sure what I done with that, possibly scrapped. I purchased a nearly finished kit one, white metal ends and brass sides. It wasn't a MTK model as it was square and the sides were the same length, or a Dave Alexander kit, they were white metal (and square). I am unsure of its origin, I did motorise it before it was sold on.

Probably a Q Kits beast. I built one, some 27 years ago. Awful thing - the castings as supplied had more holes in them than a pair of lace knickers, and as for the supplied motors... I did get it running - for about 2 minutes - before one motor burnt out; it's been in a box in the loft ever since. I must dig it out and fit a decent motor bogie...

 

Mark

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, john new said:

As a Society Journal Editor I can see both sides of this captions debate as have to add them into each edition and I sometimes have to write them. Usually they come in from the article author with the pictures, often what they are about is outside my area of expertise, if someone provides something along the lines of these spurious examples that it is a modified sub-Class XYZ EMU, or a GWR Broad Gauge **** class heading east through ????? in 18**, 19** or 20** they are completely outside my area of expertise so I have to take their word for it. Where I do know a fair bit about something, or it just doesn't read right, I have been known to ask for clarification. What editors don't have time to do most of the time is get an article peer-reviewed for most of the type of minutiae error being criticised, even if they have an idea of who that peer-reviewer should be. 

 

As an example of the above practical constraints in action in the latest edition the caption accompanying an image reads - Class 105 DMU at Kings Cross, York Rd station on 31 October 1976, the last day of diesel services to Moorgate. I know enough to confirm it is K+ York Rd and that the train is southbound as described, further confirmed by the visible destination blind reading Moorgate. I am sure someone could have told me it was probably a train from [Insert originating station name]. The reader can tell from the lighting angle it was a morning service so adding that would have been fill text for text's sake. The crucial thing though was the document was already overdue at the printer, this was an infill, but relevant, stock source image needed to fill a 1/3rd page slot left over where the previous feature had only run to 1 2/3rd pages. There was not time to seek any more advice.

 

That's fair comment as far as a journal/periodical is concerned, John, but the lead times and deadlines for books should allow more time for peer review (although as you say it's not always easy to find the right peer).

[jwealleans]

Tony, can I ask how your friend's F6s had been persuaded to go round corners?   I haven't built the Stephen Poole one but the Gibson one had to have the frames cut through where the front steps hide the join and become a 2-6-0 before it would even consider anything less than straight.

 

I did look at tapering the frames and the LRM radial axle assembly, but I wasn't convinced they would give me as much movement as was required.

[bbishop]

As a Society Journal writer,  I expect my articles to be peer reviewed.  I usually get them reviewed myself and tell the editor who has seen the article.  Photographs can sometimes be between the author and the editor.  In the South Western Circle, the compilers of two photographic collections were meticulous in making notes which can be trusted. and we have an expert on locomotives.  Bill

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Tony, can I ask how your friend's F6s had been persuaded to go round corners?   I haven't built the Stephen Poole one but the Gibson one had to have the frames cut through where the front steps hide the join and become a 2-6-0 before it would even consider anything less than straight.

 

I did look at tapering the frames and the LRM radial axle assembly, but I wasn't convinced they would give me as much movement as was required.

The Stephen Poole one didn't do corners very well as designed, simple straight frames with sideplay on the radial axles. You do need radial movement on at least one end of  2-4-2T but both ends would require side control springing as well.

My latest solution for this is an internal pony truck on the effective radius of the radial axleboxes, seen here in our C14 etch.

This works quite happily down to my 28" minimum radius in 00 gauge at least.

[Dave Hunt]

 

Peer reviewing is always preferable but not always practical. Although far removed from railways, my younger son's experience when undergoing the viva for his PhD thesis was possibly illuminating. The subject was 'The effects of ground water recharge on abandoned mine workings' and when he went to meet the two visiting professors who were to examine him one of them said that, as my son was probably aware, the first thing they usually did on receiving a thesis was to do a literature search on the subject but when they did so for his submission the only name that came up was his. "So, Mr. Hunt," said one of then, "What do you think we ought to ask you?"

 

It can also be difficult to get a satisfactory peer review if you are writing something for the model railway or railway historical press which breaks new ground. 

 

Dave