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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Going through pictures for a future article, I came upon the one below...............

 

130049182_TornadoCreeton1161303.jpg.f1f140ee3bbafcdf5376d7fc3522550c.jpg

 

 

 

The thing that sticks out the most (by a country mile) in this photograph in my, most humble, opinion is .......

 

.... the colour of Tornado, whoever thought that blue was a good colour for such a locomotive (whether originally or more recently)?

 

TAKE COVER!  Now where's my tin hat?    

 

Alan

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20 minutes ago, PupCam said:

 

... whoever thought that blue was a good colour for such a locomotive ...

 

130049182_TornadoCreeton1161303.jpg.f1f140ee3bbafcdf5376d7fc3522550c.jpg.c97b94f35945ac0b49fd1c9b1ea9a41c.jpg

 

.... but it does point to the probable thought processes of those selecting a livery for a newly Nationalised railway system, created at the behest of a Labour government; as near to red, white and blue as was practicable in the steam railway environment!

 

John Isherwood.

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Interestingly, the static photos of the loco in green display no evidence of misalignment.

 

That clearly present in the action shot suggests a combination of (possible) causal factors, a near-empty tender riding high, and the rear of the loco "sitting down" under load.  

 

John

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

A point about 'observation', if I may.

 

On many occasions, I've been critical about Bachmann's A1......................

 

675121511_BachmannA1KingsCourier32-557.jpg.03b885a69ee8ea910b9fafc4be99729a.jpg

 

The footplate beneath the cab is low in comparison with the tender's soleplate. I know both vehicles (particularly the tender) can ride at different heights whether full or empty, but this just seemed too much.

 

Going through pictures for a future article, I came upon the one below...............

 

130049182_TornadoCreeton1161303.jpg.f1f140ee3bbafcdf5376d7fc3522550c.jpg

 

Granted, this is nearer what it should be (it's a prototype, after all), but look how the cab itself is nor vertical, and that the numbers and lining on it are not horizontal, and not parallel with the central footplate or the tender's lining. If these were replicated on a model, wouldn't it look wrong? 

 

 

It is possible to "fix" the Bachmann version, as I think you've done.

 

Other that building a kit which for some brings in other issues, Hornby's Tornado is far better sorted with respect to the lining up of the cab and tender, it also has a cartazzi with better relief though only suitable for few of the originals?

 

 A friend has a Hornby Tornado, I was  surprised how strong it was. It bettered the latest Bachmann version (early examples were awarded the wooden spoon in that respect anyway). But I was also surprised how good the lining was better than Bachmann. i felt it wouldn't take much effort to make a decent original A1. Tender mods body and chassis, smoke deflectors and handrails. Not sure what else.

 

With respect to the prototype Tornado. The camera is cruel, it's not perfect. I suspect we're more demanding of models and less forgiving?

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16 minutes ago, davidw said:

Not sure what else.

I think the cab and boiler fittings are slightly lower on Tornado to fit the national loading gauge.

 

No doubt LNER4479 will be able to give us chapter and verse on how Tornado differs to the original A1s.

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21 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Interestingly, the static photos of the loco in green display no evidence of misalignment.

 

That clearly present in the action shot suggests a combination of (possible) causal factors, a near-empty tender riding high, and the rear of the loco "sitting down" under load.  

 

John

Hi John

 

It is the other side.

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Has anybody got any firm evidence other than one photo to prove whether the cab is leaning back or not.

 

A quick internet search throws up a number of images, taken close up of the cab side and showing the relationship between the cab and the tender, that would suggest that any apparent lean may have been due to something else other than the cab being about to fall off.

 

 http://www.britishrailwaystories.com/2012/12/post-Hornby-announcement-few-thoughts.html

 

Is one.

 

Of course any photo is a snapshot of what something looks like at a particular moment and doesn't prove that it was always like that.

 

A slight track irregularity or the natural different motion of the loco and the tender may have combined to create that impression just at that moment but the idea that a loco would be built and nobody would notice that the cab is wonky on one side until somebody posts a photo on RMWeb is a bit much for me to take it as proof!

 

I haven't checked but I am pretty sure that the cab sides slope in at the top. A slight roll of tender or loco would create an impression that there is a lean.

 

I remain open to being convinced otherwise!

 

Having said that, I have seen or heard of real locos with wonky cabs. I recall Malcolm telling me that i his days as a loco inspector he was once called out to an ex LMS Black 5,. It wasn't a type he was familiar with but he told me you didn't have to be an expert to see that several bolts holding the cab on were missing and the rest were loose. You had to anticipate which way the cab was going to sway, which was not the same as the way the loco went. If you got it wrong, you could get clonked on the hand  or even head by one of the controls.

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9 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

Has anybody got any firm evidence other than one photo to prove whether the cab is leaning back or not.

 

A quick internet search throws up a number of images, taken close up of the cab side and showing the relationship between the cab and the tender, that would suggest that any apparent lean may have been due to something else other than the cab being about to fall off.

 

 http://www.britishrailwaystories.com/2012/12/post-Hornby-announcement-few-thoughts.html

 

Is one.

 

Of course any photo is a snapshot of what something looks like at a particular moment and doesn't prove that it was always like that.

 

A slight track irregularity or the natural different motion of the loco and the tender may have combined to create that impression just at that moment but the idea that a loco would be built and nobody would notice that the cab is wonky on one side until somebody posts a photo on RMWeb is a bit much for me to take it as proof!

 

I haven't checked but I am pretty sure that the cab sides slope in at the top. A slight roll of tender or loco would create an impression that there is a lean.

 

I remain open to being convinced otherwise!

 

Having said that, I have seen or heard of real locos with wonky cabs. I recall Malcolm telling me that i his days as a loco inspector he was once called out to an ex LMS Black 5,. It wasn't a type he was familiar with but he told me you didn't have to be an expert to see that several bolts holding the cab on were missing and the rest were loose. You had to anticipate which way the cab was going to sway, which was not the same as the way the loco went. If you got it wrong, you could get clonked on the hand  or even head by one of the controls.

 

Evening Tony,

 

I would agree, I don't think there is a problem. just the tender crabbing about a bit at speed.

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Tornado's cab comes off from time to time - seen here at Wenselydale railway in January this year - it's designed to be fairly 'quick release' and is a fairly practised procedure by now. I'm equally sure other full-size loco cabs are similarly detached. They're quite flexible structures and do move around a bit at speed! (Picture from https://www.a1steam.com/2020/01/)

 

image.png.af5361831a3bf3618651d0de1565ac70.png

Edited by LNER4479
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28 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

Has anybody got any firm evidence other than one photo to prove whether the cab is leaning back or not.

 

A quick internet search throws up a number of images, taken close up of the cab side and showing the relationship between the cab and the tender, that would suggest that any apparent lean may have been due to something else other than the cab being about to fall off.

 

 http://www.britishrailwaystories.com/2012/12/post-Hornby-announcement-few-thoughts.html

 

Is one.

 

Of course any photo is a snapshot of what something looks like at a particular moment and doesn't prove that it was always like that.

 

A slight track irregularity or the natural different motion of the loco and the tender may have combined to create that impression just at that moment but the idea that a loco would be built and nobody would notice that the cab is wonky on one side until somebody posts a photo on RMWeb is a bit much for me to take it as proof!

 

I haven't checked but I am pretty sure that the cab sides slope in at the top. A slight roll of tender or loco would create an impression that there is a lean.

 

I remain open to being convinced otherwise!

 

Having said that, I have seen or heard of real locos with wonky cabs. I recall Malcolm telling me that i his days as a loco inspector he was once called out to an ex LMS Black 5,. It wasn't a type he was familiar with but he told me you didn't have to be an expert to see that several bolts holding the cab on were missing and the rest were loose. You had to anticipate which way the cab was going to sway, which was not the same as the way the loco went. If you got it wrong, you could get clonked on the hand  or even head by one of the controls.

Good evening Tony,

 

I didn't think my picture would create quite so much interest. 

 

My 'evidence' for the cab leaning back slightly on TORNADO (at least on this particular occasion) is not so much the relationship between the loco and its tender (which is a constantly-changing dynamic), but that if one takes the horizontal handrail on the cab and the horizontal (shorter) handrail on the firebox, the two are not parallel; and they should be. The latter is horizontal and the former dips down to the rear. I agree, it's really only evident in tight perspective, but the two elements would never change their orientation - unless the cab were loose! 

 

60508 used to have a 'leany-back' cab for a time (I hope I built mine vertical), as did 60044, and 60009 when first repaired at Bridgnorth had its L/H cabside leaning inwards. 

 

How 'accurate' should we make our models, I wonder? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Interestingly, the static photos of the loco in green display no evidence of misalignment.

 

That clearly present in the action shot suggests a combination of (possible) causal factors, a near-empty tender riding high, and the rear of the loco "sitting down" under load.  

 

John

Or is it something to do with the weight of the tender on the drawbar/rear of the locomotive.   Here are a couple of shots I took of 60007 at Bath in 2008.   There is a definite downward slope to the tender and corresponding upslope on the loco.

 

PICT0003-1.jpg.35528ee385af43987c3480be1459fcf8.jpg

 

PICT0005-1.jpg.56cac9f8ec7579a3351ab462997445ac.jpg

 

John

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48 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

... if one takes the horizontal handrail on the cab and the horizontal (shorter) handrail on the firebox, the two are not parallel; and they should be. The latter is horizontal and the former dips down to the rear. I agree, it's really only evident in tight perspective, but the two elements would never change their orientation - unless the cab were loose! 

You'd be surprised! Remember that the firebox end of the boiler assembly is NOT rigidly fixed at that the end of the frames to allow it to 'breath' as it expands and contracts. I have seen a piece of cab footage from the 2017 100mph run and the amount of relative movement between the cab and firebox backhead is ... well ... quite frightening!

 

A wonky cab when photographed stationary is a different matter. Stanier 4-6-0 cabs for some reason seem quite prone to it.

 

Full-size rail vehicles are surprisingly flexible things all round and a wonky looking cab could simply be the loco sitting on a piece of uneven track.

Edited by LNER4479
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41 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Tony,

 

I didn't think my picture would create quite so much interest. 

 

My 'evidence' for the cab leaning back slightly on TORNADO (at least on this particular occasion) is not so much the relationship between the loco and its tender (which is a constantly-changing dynamic), but that if one takes the horizontal handrail on the cab and the horizontal (shorter) handrail on the firebox, the two are not parallel; and they should be. The latter is horizontal and the former dips down to the rear. I agree, it's really only evident in tight perspective, but the two elements would never change their orientation - unless the cab were loose! 

 

60508 used to have a 'leany-back' cab for a time (I hope I built mine vertical), as did 60044, and 60009 when first repaired at Bridgnorth had its L/H cabside leaning inwards. 

 

How 'accurate' should we make our models, I wonder? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

the two handrails that you are comparing are not parallel from the angle that you are viewing. That on the firebox conforms to the inward angle of the firebox, from the tubeplate back to the cab. Thus it is diverging inwards from the parallel compared to the cab handrail. If the two handrails are parallel in a plan view on your DJH A1's,then the shape of the firebox is wrong. The effect is visible below.

 

 

 

 

tornado1.jpg

Edited by Headstock
angle better than curve
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48 minutes ago, great central said:

Regarding wonky cabs, there's a photo somewhere, possibly in a steam world magazine, of a black 5, on the GC if memory serves.

The cab is leaning back at a very noticeable angle.

 

Maybe you mean 45212 which at the end of steam was kept running with a wonky cab after it's trip down't pit.

 

The Very Last One..

 

Re the A1 cab; I took this in 2009. About 30 seconds before the tender had reached full water capacity.

 

Tornado27-02-09-012.jpg.feee97aa7e7e29bd64f416f489f89d1b.jpg

 

P

 

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40 minutes ago, Doncaster Green said:

Or is it something to do with the weight of the tender on the drawbar/rear of the locomotive.   Here are a couple of shots I took of 60007 at Bath in 2008.   There is a definite downward slope to the tender and corresponding upslope on the loco.

 

 

PICT0005-1.jpg.56cac9f8ec7579a3351ab462997445ac.jpg

 

John

My eyes tell me the front tender springs are more compressed than the rear, suggesting the crew have pulled the coal forward.

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21 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

That cab is definitely sloping backwards on the RH side - you can see the bend in the running plate at the firbox / cab interface.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Evening John,

 

there is a bend in the running board but the cab and tender side sheets are parallel and the top surface of the tender and locomotive platforms line up not too badly.

 

tornado2.jpg

Edited by Headstock
make space.
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26 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening John,

 

there is a bend in the running board but the cab and tender side sheets are parallel and the top surface of the tender and locomotive platforms line up not too badly.

 

tornado2.jpg


The lining on the tender looks farther apart along the left side of the image than in the centre, which suggests that some distortion of the image can be attributed to the lens... so maybe that is why the running board also looks slightly curved?

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Another of Belfast Jacks videos.  It is in HD and whilst it does jump about a bit there is some fascinating stuff, especially the make-up of some of the trains and some very strange (to me) coaches.  One clip that i found of particular interest is at 2.23 where a fitted freight has the Guard's Van between 5 and 7 wagons from the train end.  Something I remember on the Grimsby to London fast fish trains but strongly rebutted when I mentioned it in a post.  Especially since my father told me it was done to give the Guard a better ride. 

 

 

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