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16 hours ago, Barry O said:

Red Leader mentioned about building coaches, well I have been testing some of mine on my new layout. RTR coaches at the rear of this set.. but it shows how many different ex LMS vehicles you can put together from kits.

 

Apologies for the two Bachmann EE Type 1s on the front.. they  were "to hand" for testing.

Baz

One should never apologise about a pair of Choppers.

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23 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

I do think it’s possible to run a full sequence provided some compromises on speed of operation are made. On Gresley Jn (timetable based on Hatfield) I’m currently running through an almost complete sequence from midday to midnight. There were many more trains at Hatfield because of the Cambridge line and inner suburban terminators. My sequence has 154 trains in it and I’m still finding things to add!

 

There are three compromises:

1. A lot of rakes get used more than once. For example my Talisman rake gets three appearances for the up morning and down and up afternoon Talismen. This is possible by modelling the 1957 service as the same rake worked out and back. Of course I should still have two rakes with different coach numbers, but as you’ve said before ...who reads the coach numbers? Some sets like my quad art get used many more times than that! I do try to get a different loco on each time though to ring the changes. Goods stock also get used several times, particularly mineral wagons.
2. I have a few fixed rakes like the Talsiman, Lizzie and West Riding which were very distinctive. But the majority of ECML expresses were formed of 6-10 Mark 1s and a Gresley/ Thompson catering core. So I have the Mark 1s and catering cores in a pile of trays and pull out what I need for each train. To economise on coaches some are ‘borrowed’ from the fixed rakes. Coach roof boards are not always correct but I do have different ones on each side so that I can get it right more often than not. Rather like the numbers they’re rarely read!

3. Time! It takes a while to form each train up. I enjoy this as I research them in the CWN and then form them up from my stock but it’s not a spectator sport! I’m running the sequence through at one train a day. At that rate it will take almost half a year to run through the whole (half) day.

 

This works well for lockdown but when friends come round, I run a much shorter sequence based on what’s set up in my fiddle yard and a handful of cassettes. This tends to be similar to your sequence in length (40 movements over 2-3 hours) and is the practical maximum for a visit. 
 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

Good morning Andrew,

 

As you say, 'speed' of operation is not important if you're running a layout by/for yourself or with friends. Unless it's at an exhibition, it's not a spectator sport, so I entirely take your point. 

 

By the way, which 'Talisman' rake do you have? The less-interesting Mk.1 set (which can be formed entirely by just using Bachmann Mk.1 cars) or the more-interesting rake which included the ex-'Coronation' FO twins and the Thompson catering cars? I have both - one to represent the morning service (the Mk.1s) and the other to represent the afternoon one (the more-interesting). As you say, latterly, with the fitting of roller bearings, one set did both Up and Down services, but still two rakes were required. 

 

You're also right in asking the question 'Who reads coach numbers?'. However, say, in the case of the 'Lizzie', for a year or two (indeed, right up to the train's end), a Gresley RF was substituted for the more-usual Thompson equivalent. I actually remember this, so, to replicate it, you'd have to swap the catering cars in the fiddle yard if you were using just one rake to represent both trains. Or, build both trains. To my mind, 'fiddling' with trains (even in the fiddle yard) is not something to be encouraged. There's the ever-present risk of accidental damage (especially with cassettes) and, unless every coupling is entirely consistent with its peers, the risk of subsequent train separation and derailment is far too prevalent. As you know, neither is tolerated on LB. 

 

I'm delighted that the study of actual train make-ups is more prevalent than in the past, resulting in models of actual trains being made/modified. That said, I couldn't tolerate those trains being shortened (by even one coach), not if an 'accurate' representation is to be made, especially on the ECML, where some rakes were huge. In fact, I've even gone as far as adding a strengthener to some of my trains (very common on busy summer days); easily accommodated in the fiddle yard because of the roads' lengths. I even have a summer Saturday 'extra' rake (anomalous, given that the 'Lizzie' and the 'Tees-Tyne Pullman' also run), which is made-up (as on the prototype) with anything which could turn a wheel. A good excuse for running spare stock. 

 

Though, as everyone knows, Little Bytham is a roundy-roundy layout, when the sequence is run (which hasn't happened for quite some time now), each train only circuits once (though only one way; they never return). Of course, for 'play' value it's ideal, and I'll frequently let a train fizz round, circuit after circuit, unattended while I duck and dive to observe it. It's the nearest thing to a time machine I have! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
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21 hours ago, Jamiel said:

Wheel quartering, by company?
 

After an hour searching RMweb and Google, I am still trying to find the answer to a very simple question, which I am sure will be answered on this thread in seconds.
 

The kit instructions just say that the ‘wheels need quartering’. Great which way?
 

The kit is for a Lancashire and Yorkshire Class 23 0-6-0 saddle tank, later LMS and then BR.
 

I heave read that LMS locos quarter their wheels the opposite way to other companies (left hand lead?), so my question is if the left hand crank pins are a 12 O’clock, should the right cranks pins be at 9 O’clock or at 3 O’clock?
 

A secondary question, should I glue them in with cyano (Superglue/Rocket Cyano)? One of them keeps unscrewing, despite the connecting rods being OK on the other crank pins.
 

Thanks in advance.
 

Jamie

Not the LMS as a whole, it was the LNW which always used LH lead for cranks. The vast majority of locos were RH lead but I'm not sure about the L&Y but two photos of the surviving 2-4-2T at the NRM show RH lead. Right and left hand are always used in the sense of looking forward along the loco.

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58 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

It was the track configuration (fast lines to the west, even though they're still bullhead; the slows seem to be FB) and the start of the chalk cutting in the background which suggested Tring. If so, the train is about to pass through the station. 

 

Any local observers know?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Not certain and I am not going out to have a look at the moment.

My feeling is that the photo was take just a bit nearer to the station than this one.

The four lines and the loop look about right but I have no memory of the signal box.

Bernard

 

Cutting3.jpg.62ad942e007d780f86c2c4f6ff6e4208.jpg

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Whilst we are on the subject of correct formations, can anyone here help me with formations for the Sunny South Express in the period 1938 - 48?

 

My understanding is that initially it started from Lime Street & Manchester, but post-war came from Birkenhead and that there was an SR Maunsell rake and an LMS rake running in opposite directions.

 

It is the LMS rake that I am particularly interested in as being a "justifiable" visitor to my SR based layout.

 

All help appreciated.

 

Tony

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23 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

As promised, some 'educational' views of Little Bytham.................

 

1951677575_educationalviews01.jpg.2ecde21bd787176bfd88fc3858406371.jpg

 

Looking south. 

 

When the sequence is run with four operators, the Down driver sits at this side.

 

1503827316_educationalviews02.jpg.bf46230f89213a7040a5ba3b5b447ebf.jpg

 

Nearer to the station. 

 

The Down kick-back sidings are just visible to the right behind the backscene (which is not attached to the layout). There's just enough room for the non-obese to get in between the layout and the backscene, for routine maintenance purposes and photography. 

 

1877174986_educationalviews03.jpg.e2017c23c9b3acf8f7c5b7b7d915da2c.jpg

 

678549701_educationalviews04.jpg.2fec9fd986134a31f5bdd6f0f83e28a5.jpg

 

Two views of the MR/M&GNER section and its relationship to the main line, including two Up kick-back sidings for the GN. 

 

It's definitely designed for one-person operation! 

 

Spare locos and stock abound. 

 

1305290929_educationalviews05.jpg.db0698d6258fe4ea1496e8de4f7ef815.jpg

 

The full width (12') of the MR/M&GNR section. The end curves are really much too tight, but the decision whether to have a working railway or just a static, scenic break has been discussed before. Anyway, since most trains on it are slow and short, the compromise is lessened. 

 

1718442067_educationalviews06.jpg.4e38d04b0d89268cf3daeb4da84245c6.jpg

 

The lifting section and part of the cassette system.

 

For consistent good running, large-radius points have been mainly used in the GN fiddle yard, giving the smoothest transitions. 

 

1467055482_educationalviews07.jpg.eba762cc26efb2faf4c6505c31b742e2.jpg

 

Looking south down the 'spine', with the main GN fiddle yard to the left. 

 

927948741_educationalviews08.jpg.baf91de3a6f0a18bfb0dbb6c49701c2a.jpg

 

One visitor was just too fat to get through this gap! 

 

The bulge-out was essential to accommodate The Willoughby. In fact, the full width here was necessary to capture the 'sprawl' of Little Bytham. 

 

1309560305_educationalviews09.jpg.ecbff26e279ecac18f12632d278c134f.jpg

 

Looking north, the various relationships are evident. 

 

Even more spare locos and stock are present for the GN. The drawers and shelves are full!

 

The little levers sticking out from the backscene to the left control the ground signals (thanks Roy and Ray). 

 

22507026_educationalviews10.jpg.206a585656f3146c956ed2e846a5d152.jpg

 

The fiddle yard operator's position. 

 

Even more spare locos! 

 

1281389486_educationalviews11.jpg.7478d2f4aca253c74a5177589cf7ee6c.jpg

 

The sequence cards and the 'maintenance' bit. The Gaugmaster controller, as well as providing a rolling road and power to the test track also controls the Down kick-back sidings. 

 

I hope the above pictures answer the questions being recently asked (I've discovered I'm a contortionist!), but I dislike several of them because of the distortions caused by having to use an 18mm lens in places. 

 

Would some be used in a potential article? Possibly, though I still prefer to manipulate 'realistic' images. 

 

Any comments welcome, please......................

 

 

I miss it. 
 

I only go over to see Little Bytham and for Mo to do my washing. 
 

Tony who? 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

.....

 

Though, as everyone knows, Little Bytham is a roundy-roundy layout, .... for 'play' value it's ideal, and I'll frequently let a train fizz round, circuit after circuit, unattended while I duck and dive to observe it. It's the nearest thing to a time machine I have! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Priceless.   I do the same, more frequently that I care to admit....  

 

It’s a good tonic during lockdown.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

To my mind, 'fiddling' with trains (even in the fiddle yard) is not something to be encouraged. There's the ever-present risk of accidental damage (especially with cassettes) ...

 

Morning Tony,

 

Whilst I would agree that physical handling of stock should be minimised, I would offer the view that proper shunting of stock, even in a fiddle yard environment, is an extra dimension in terms of the operation of a layout that I (and I suspect others) enjoy immensely.

 

On the traditional railway this happened routinely in coaching stock depots / sidings the length and breadth of the country, not something that's often depicted in model form. A long distance train, upon arrival at its terminating station would most likely be worked ECS out of the station a short distance (eg Euston to Willesden) where it would be serviced and subject to any remarshalling as required. Then ECS back to the terminus station to pick up its next working, sometimes - but not always - the equivalent train to the one it worked earlier. Completely different from today, when the set is serviced in the station and then works away again 90 minutes later.

 

Any remarshalling would be according to the planned carriage working diagrams and it could be the case that even the core formation could be changed to suit the expected traffic (ie passenger) requirements for its planned train, including the catering arrangements and balance of first versus third (second) accommodation. I think this was quite common in the pre-grouping era; still going on in the pre-war era; but less likely in the BR era. I say that on the basis of our studying of the 1930s GNR mainline and ECML carriage working notices for Grantham. Formations were complex because of the number of portions, through coaches, additional vans, etc and it was quite unusual for the reverse working to be the exact same formation. The notices give all the details of the balancing working for every part of the train, even quoting individual vehicle numbers in some cases - absolutely fascinating and a work of art to put together in the pre-computer age!

 

Because it's something that interests me (not least because I witnessed the fag end of it on BR in the late 1980s, working at two such locations), it is something I very much intend to undertake on my Carlisle project. There'll be a certain amount of station shunting goes on at Carlisle itself but most of the fundamental remarshalling will be undertaken at Central station and its associated carriage sidings - and we'll have carriage working notices to go with it. Not only will this add an extra dimension but it'll also allow better use to be made of the stock to depict more trains.

 

Woe betide the operator who sends out a formation in contravention of the notices as it'll cause carnage to the rest of the layout!

Edited by LNER4479
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I have just seen the cover shot to a new book, and as an non LNER modeller, it reminds me of the inspiration that following LB does. When I follow LB, I am watching over the fence as here - just want to watch the trains go by, and what a variety of trains..

 

https://www.mortonsbooks.co.uk/product/view/productCode/15514

 

Mike Wiltshire

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There is something very pleasant and relaxing about setting trains going and watching them trundle (or race!) round.

 

That is not something that can be done on Buckingham. You either run it properly or not at all.

 

On Narrow Road, although it is essentially an end to end layout, it is like a paperclip and on one side there is a link line to make a couple of circuits with some extra trains hidden in 4 loops. They don't form part of the operating sequence but are there for when Ken hos visitors who just want to see some trains run or for when we are doing some work on the layout. The trains are like david Jenkinson's "funny trains" in that some are way out of period and others would be much too long to deal with at the two terminus stations, like a 50 wagon coal train.

 

Setting the coal train off one way and a streamlined Coronation on 12 carriages the other way and just watching how they pass at different parts of the layout is much better than working on a layout where nothing is happening. I think it is good for the locos to stretch their legs from time to time too, so we swap some of them about with ones from the layout that only run once in a while in the sequence 

 

If there is a gap in the sequence, perhaps due to a slow shunting move, we can always send one round as an "extra".

 

So we can choose to either run the layout to the sequence ior to just "play trains" sending them round while we work. I think the present buzz word is "bimodal".

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11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

That's a lorra lorra stock!

 

I think you've already hinted at it but I assume a certain amount of using individual vehicles more than once in different formations? Either than or some serious racking above or below the layout?

They don't all run at once. In general, I don't have fixed sets and stock is shuffled around as the trains evolve over time. I have lots of places to store stock.

 

I wrote the notes to speed things up when I do a stock changeover, so I don't have to rummage through carriage workings.

 

The way I operate the layout is largely that terminus to fiddleyard is LMR and through lines are WR.

 

On the LMR side, there will typically be four 8-car trains, two 7-car, three 6-car, one 5-car and four 4-car (or equivalent length). This includes non-passenger stock. There will also often be a 6-car DMU. As well as that, there will be lots of shorter DMUs. 

 

On the WR side, there will typically be four freights, two express passenger sets (one of which can be 9-car) and some local and other shorter sets and a DMU or two.

 

There are eight through roads and four long dead-end roads in the fiddleyard, plus two short lines for DMUs, so it is not very big. Two dead-end roads can accommodate loco plus eight and the other two are long enough for 11 Mark 1s and a loco, which means they can each hold two trains. You can just about get 12 in if some carriages are shorter than a long-frame Mark 1. One end of one through line is also used for a DMU to/from the terminus. The eight through roads vary in length and are generally used for freight and the WR trains, with the middle six being fully reversible. The longest road currently has an 8-car Blue Pullman and a 33+4TC.

 

The station area has four long carriage sidings plus a reception road and three short (4-car equivalent) carriage sidings and two DMU sidings. 

 

There will also usually be one or two trains in the terminus platforms as a minimum.

 

I do have about 200 Bachmann Mark 1s. I long ago gave up on the idea of removing the roof ribs from the 150+ that have them.

 

Just occasionally I invoke Rule 1 and run my 20 or so SR EMUs although there is no 3rd rail.

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17 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Whilst the prototypical formations discussion is reasonably current(!), perhaps I can fly the flag for the LMR to compare and contrast with the ER posts:

 

1950s_2.JPG.f7fbe88b75b98d2a95fef71ef8aa76ae.JPG

'The Royal Scot' circa 1953 in 'Festival of Britain' guise. Reduced slightly from 13 to 11 vehicles, simply by losing one each of TK and TO from the front section of the train (I refer to them as 'Thirds' not 'Seconds' in the Blood n Custard era). Nine of the vehicles are standard RTR offerings; the tricky bit - as always - is the catering core, in this case 'solved' by Comet sides on Lima bodies for the full kitchen car and the Rest. Third (to go with the RTR Rest. First <-- one of the more bizarre RTR offerings, IMHO, cos it's meaningless on its own).

 

1950s_5.JPG.09ad66830d02b9d30c29cdd4cbdc725f.JPG

The Midday Scot c.1955. This is a monster train in its full guise (up to 17 vehicles); however, it did run with a portion so, by simply losing that, we have a more manageable train. Depending on the time of year, it ran without the separate portion (or at least there are several pictures showing it running like this). This train is even easier from a RTR point of view as the catering core is shown with standard FO and TO vehicles. The heart of the catering core still causes a problem however; in this case solved with a Comet D.1697, built by Mr. Duck; painted by me. Probably should be a Stanier equivalent but at least it's the right type of vehicle. Erroneously depicted as the rear vehicle is a Choc./cream BCK as the Plymouth through coach. Erroneous as Choc./cream wouldn't have been until at least 1957 and even more erroneous because it I've now realised that it wasn't even conveyed on this train in the Up direction!! (it was more usually two vehicles but a BCK can represent it in my book)

 

1109971398_Aug_13LpoolGlasgow.JPG.a76212f0e00688be5a1e63882053268f.JPG

1950s Liverpool/Manchester-Glasgow ... or it might actually be a Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh (I think it was Andrew who mentioned this train or one like it). By complete contrast this was all LMS stock in the 1950s so much more of a challenge. Formation-wise, there's a strengthener at the front (a delightful PdII offering by Barry O of this parish), then the Glasgow portion of six vehicles, including the catering vehicle (in this case, the Hornby nee Dapol offering does the job nicely here), with the four coach Edinburgh portion bringing up the rear. So four brake vehicles in the consist. It should be 13 vehicles, so again slight compression without losing the character of the train. Seven RTR and four kit / conversions. (two by Barry; two by Tom D)

 

1217908743_Aug_25BhamGlasgow.JPG.2b889d6aa88ddad3e7b49b20fc2537b7.JPG

Late 1950s Birmingham-Glasgow. I don't yet have the definitive formation information for this train so this is based on pictures. Most pictures do however show a consistent eight vehicle core consist so that's what I've gone for. A full brake plus all Third strengtheners at the front seems to be something the West Coast had a bit of a penchant for; their addition makes for a pleasing looking train. Again, the catering car is a problem; again solved by a Comet kit build, a magnificent Stanier 12-wheel RTKit by Iain Henderson (92220 of this parish). In fact at least half the coaches in this train are Iain's at the present time; the second vehicle is another Barry O build.

 

1960s_6.JPG.cfb8e59b76eb5c4ee364ba8b9cb953e7.JPG

The Caledonian in its first year or so of running. Six RTR; one kit build; one conversion. Guess what? Yep, the kitchen car is one of them, a Stanier 50ft vehicle this time (92220 again). At least Hornby's new Coronation Scot vehicles offers the hope that such a vehicle will be available RTR in the future. This train is not fully correct yet as the rear vehicle was - famously - a pre-war Stanier Brake First. So that needs tackling at some point.

(no idea where the loco came from ... :jester:)

 

Waverley.jpg.600f9772f29d0bd49e3f6f67d23bccc8.jpg

Finally - for now - the late 1950s Waverley (obviously not seen on Shap!) One coach reduced from its usual booked nine (some pictures do in fact show it as just eight vehicles, probably in the winter time). 100% RTR! And all of the correct type, I believe? Pictures show the catering vehicle types dancing about a bit. This is again the Dapol (this one really is a Dapol one!) RCKit. I think someone on here mentioned that the caterer was only acting as a buffet rather than full meal service (or at least there was a period when that happened).

 

My one obvious train missing at the moment is the Thames-Clyde Express, which I fancy in c.1954 condition (then the S&C route on my Carlisle scheme layout will have one of each in terms of the livery of its two principal expresses).

 

Conclusion? Not too dissimilar from the East Coast route. Quite a bit of use can be made of RTR but the catering core is usually the challenge. My own personal 'wish list' vehicle is for a RTR Stanier 12-wheel restaurant car ... but which one? Probably the Third (Second) as the most common type ... and a CO to go with it!

 

(apologies for picture quality on one or two - they were taken 'live' at the Glasgow show, with the trains actually moving! It was the first time some of these trains were running in their full formation - most have remained in their boxes since)

 

 

Good morning Graham,

 

the Royal Scot looks Gorgeous, we had one of the LM sets with the twins at the head, though Duchesses were also used, Coronation in BR blue, I think with slopping smokebox, Duchess of Sutherland in LMS red and streamliner Duchess of Norfolk in LMS black. All locomotives and stock were kit built but the twins were scratch built.

 

The portion left off the Midday Scot was all the LMS carriages! We got it up to fourteen, just to keep it ahead of the Royal Scot. Our set also ran south and also had the GWR anomaly. You can't stop railway modelers tinkering with formations, shame. The Duck of Doom is also a bit of an anomaly, being late crested and also before it was booted off, its usual working of the Midday Scot was between Euston and Crewe.

 

No, the Manchester Liverpool is not the same express, ours was the early afternoon departure. I don't recognise that one particularly, except for the open third at the head. That seems to have been common in late forties photographs but those sets were LM liveried.

 

I don't have any info on the Birmingham Glasgow in the late fifties only the early fifties.

 

I have a photo of a porthole BFK in the Caledonian.

 

I built the 1949 version of the Thames Clyde express. My Father saw the diverted train come through our local station, when the Aire valley line was flooded. A rebuilt Royal Sot was train engine, piloted by a 2p. It wouldn't be possible today, as the line is no longer a through route.

 

My own period III thirds class dining car, It's getting on a bit now. I forget what train it was on but it has a matching open third and compo.

 

947247913_ExLMSRT.jpg.5cbfd322ff56862d5cc84a8c2397cb5c.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Headstock
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On 08/01/2021 at 17:58, thegreenhowards said:

I meant no offence to you. But I do get annoyed when magazines present train formations which I know to be wrong or, at best, unusual, in order to be able to represent a train with RTR coaches. I would like magazines to set a good example. What an individual modeller does is up to them and if you’ve represented trains correctly then I’m delighted. That’s what I look for more than anything when I look at a layout.

 

No offence taken - I guessed what you were suggesting.

 

Likewise I get frustrated when many railway modellers trot out the same First Class-Buffet-Second Class-Brake - even on something like a four coach representation of a 10+ mainline express. I can see and appreciate the intention of what they're trying to represent, but personally I find modelling actual formations (including the shorter) ones much more satisfying. I'd rather run SK-CK-BSK-SK-SK knowing it's a real formation rather than FK-RMB-SK-SK-BSK.

 

It's also the case that my preferred modelling era (late 1980s) has its advantages. Even in N the bulk of what's needed is available RTR - a couple of Mk2 brake-first and some refurbished Mk1 catering vehicles are all that's missing.

 

Steven B

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1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

Whilst we are on the subject of correct formations, can anyone here help me with formations for the Sunny South Express in the period 1938 - 48?

 

My understanding is that initially it started from Lime Street & Manchester, but post-war came from Birkenhead and that there was an SR Maunsell rake and an LMS rake running in opposite directions.

 

It is the LMS rake that I am particularly interested in as being a "justifiable" visitor to my SR based layout.

 

All help appreciated.

 

Tony

 

Good morning Tony,

 

Clive Carter has the following for the 1939 formation departing Hastings.

 

BTK (24)     Liverpool

CK (18/32)

 

TK (56)        Manchester

CK (18/32)

RC 65'

BTK (24)

 

BTK (24)   Birmingham

CK (18/32) 

TK (56)

 

BCK 60'    Nottingham

 

The train stopped running after the war but sort of returned in the 80s. The formation was comprised of PIII and porthole stock and a dia 9 WCJS Dining car. Prior to 1935 the catering was an LNWR composite dining carriage.

 

Clive also says that by this time, both sets were LM stock.

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14 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I'm thinking of a different photo which shows only carriages, the BFK and a couple of FOs if I recall correctly.

I think you are referring to one on the Science and Society site - 2 Mk1 FO's and an LMS BFK furthest away. It has also appeared in Steam World magazine a few years ago. I would have said this and the one in your photo must be a porthole as the pre-war BFK didn't have an intermediate corridor door.

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27 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

Clive Carter has the following for the 1939 formation departing Hastings.

 

BTK (24)     Liverpool

CK (18/32)

 

TK (56)        Manchester

CK (18/32)

RC 65'

BTK (24)

 

BTK (24)   Birmingham

CK (18/32) 

TK (56)

 

BCK 60'    Nottingham

 

The train stopped running after the war but sort of returned in the 80s. The formation was comprised of PIII and porthole stock and a dia 9 WCJS Dining car. Prior to 1935 the catering was an LNWR composite dining carriage.

 

Clive also says that by this time, both sets were LM stock.

 

Thanks, that is most helpful, plus your last sentence means that LM stock is imperative!

Tony

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57 minutes ago, mark54 said:

I think you are referring to one on the Science and Society site - 2 Mk1 FO's and an LMS BFK furthest away. It has also appeared in Steam World magazine a few years ago. I would have said this and the one in your photo must be a porthole as the pre-war BFK didn't have an intermediate corridor door.

Yes, that's the one. In the larger image that was in the Hornby catalogue, you can see the BFK is a porthole.

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1 hour ago, Steven B said:

 

No offence taken - I guessed what you were suggesting.

 

Likewise I get frustrated when many railway modellers trot out the same First Class-Buffet-Second Class-Brake - even on something like a four coach representation of a 10+ mainline express. I can see and appreciate the intention of what they're trying to represent, but personally I find modelling actual formations (including the shorter) ones much more satisfying. I'd rather run SK-CK-BSK-SK-SK knowing it's a real formation rather than FK-RMB-SK-SK-BSK.

 

It's also the case that my preferred modelling era (late 1980s) has its advantages. Even in N the bulk of what's needed is available RTR - a couple of Mk2 brake-first and some refurbished Mk1 catering vehicles are all that's missing.

 

Steven B

By looking at portioned workings and secondary services, I have found formations of 5 or 6 with a catering car. You can get down to three for an East Coast Pullman portion.

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3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

There is something very pleasant and relaxing about setting trains going and watching them trundle (or race!) round.

 

That is not something that can be done on Buckingham. You either run it properly or not at all.

 

On Narrow Road, although it is essentially an end to end layout, it is like a paperclip and on one side there is a link line to make a couple of circuits with some extra trains hidden in 4 loops. They don't form part of the operating sequence but are there for when Ken hos visitors who just want to see some trains run or for when we are doing some work on the layout. The trains are like david Jenkinson's "funny trains" in that some are way out of period and others would be much too long to deal with at the two terminus stations, like a 50 wagon coal train.

 

Setting the coal train off one way and a streamlined Coronation on 12 carriages the other way and just watching how they pass at different parts of the layout is much better than working on a layout where nothing is happening. I think it is good for the locos to stretch their legs from time to time too, so we swap some of them about with ones from the layout that only run once in a while in the sequence 

 

If there is a gap in the sequence, perhaps due to a slow shunting move, we can always send one round as an "extra".

 

So we can choose to either run the layout to the sequence ior to just "play trains" sending them round while we work. I think the present buzz word is "bimodal".

Narrow Rd sounds like a fascinating layout. Is there a thread describing it? Id love to learn more. 

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5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andrew,

 

As you say, 'speed' of operation is not important if you're running a layout by/for yourself or with friends. Unless it's at an exhibition, it's not a spectator sport, so I entirely take your point. 

 

By the way, which 'Talisman' rake do you have? The less-interesting Mk.1 set (which can be formed entirely by just using Bachmann Mk.1 cars) or the more-interesting rake which included the ex-'Coronation' FO twins and the Thompson catering cars? I have both - one to represent the morning service (the Mk.1s) and the other to represent the afternoon one (the more-interesting). As you say, latterly, with the fitting of roller bearings, one set did both Up and Down services, but still two rakes were required. 

 

Good afternoon Tony,

 

The more interesting one of course - Why run boring Mark 1s when you can run something more exciting?! The Talisman changed significantly over the years. It was introduced in 1956 as an afternoon only train formed:

BSO (Mk 1)

SK (Mk 1)

SK (Mk 1)

SO (Thompson)

RF (Thompson)

FO-FO (Gresley ex Coronation)

BSO (Mk 1)

 

From June 1957 a morning train was introduced departing from each end at 0800 and the stock of the morning train arrived in time to form the return at 1600 from each end so just two sets of stock, both the above formation. This is the period I model so that I can justify using the same set for three services (my sequence starts after the down morning train has gone through).

 

In Autumn 1957, the morning train was renamed 'The Fair Maid' and extended to/ from Perth. It was therefore unable to work the afternoon train as well. This is when the separate (nearly) all Mark 1 train was introduced. I think it still had a Thompson RF at least initially.

 

This lasted a year before the Perth extension was abandoned as uneconomic, so from Autumn 1958 we were back to a morning and afternoon Talisman. However a slightly later timing than before meant that the morning set could not return on the evening service, so the 'boring' Mark 1 set was retained for the morning services. I think these are the versions you model?

 

Happily this rake is short enough for me to be able to fit the whole train into a photo relatively easily, so here it is.

 

FullSizeRender-compressed.JPG.cda0d63f43acba203480af923f67da17.JPG

 

This wouldn't be one I'd choose to write up for a magazine because of the difficulty of modelling the twin FO now that Mailcoach (which is how I built mine) has disappeared into the Coopercraft morass and D&S/ Marc models are dormant at best.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

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5 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Am afraid not. All the joint projects I have been involved with are on a "my layout with your help" basis and Narrow Road is Ken's layout which I have helped with and Ken doesn't really do internet or social media. His son set up a website http://www.narrowroadlayout.co.uk/  some time ago, which has details of the station of that name but it hasn't been updated for some time and doesn't show the rest of the layout.

 

It is still very much a work in progress and only two stations are substantially complete in terms of scenics but only have a few dummy signals.

 

 I am seriously thinking of starting my own workbench/layout thread to post details of all the various things I get up to and if I do, when I can get to Ken's again I will ask if I can take some photos and post them. Ken struggles a bit now and is conscious that his hands and eyes are not as good as they used to be and he has doubts about whether the layout is good enough for a wider audience and if the Wright writes critics got their teeth into it, his confidence would quickly vanish, so I won't be posting anything on this thread.

 

It is a substantial layout and in order to quicken progress, we have decided to use card kits to get one station presentable quickly. Can you just imagine the comments that would generate!

 

I will add a photo or two of one of the buildings I have been working on, a row of shops from Leigh on Sea as it may have looked in the 1920s.

 

DSCN2200.JPG.e7c652761fdfc2df1f33f96fdb7c4ee5.JPGDSCN2197.JPG.ca31c2d0a18e5d5c3c132950ce79d431.JPG

That building is stunning, why Leigh on Sea? This is an area I used to know quite well and spent quite a lot of time there.

 

Just looked at the Narrow road site, looks an amazing layout.

 

Martyn

 

Martyn

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