Wright writes.....

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

It is indeed. I always think it is one of those relatively small jobs (small per loco but big when there are lots of them!) that makes a difference proportionally greater than the work involved.

 

There were lots of jobs, big and small, that Roy didn't live long enough to complete. Lamps on locos was just was one of them!

 

It is good to see progress on the layout being made. 

The Lanarkshire Models lamps help here. As previously discussed, I think Roy did not think much of other lamps that were available but the LM ones look the part. They are mostly held on with black tack so they can be changed easily, but it means they can go a bit wonky, which is what seems to have happened to the lamps on 60117 in the photo. There seems to be an A4 (possibly Sparrowhawk) with no lamps which is now on a different train to what it had been on. As I took the spare lamps home with me by mistake, Sandra may not have spares at the moment. Trains have tail lamps now as well. 

 

Another small detail is that I can see that Sandra has now dealt with the offending white roof on the leading Pullman car on the up Queen of Scots (behind 60117).

[Headstock]

42 minutes ago, bbishop said:

 

In 1922 the upper train left Bournemouth at 1150am and arrived at York at 7.46pm, continuing to Newcastle arriving at 10.05pm.  The southbound train left Newcastle at 1 04am, York at 3 00am, arriving at Bournemouth at 2.00pm.  The Bournemouth - York portion (LSWR or GCR) couldn't travel further because the LSWR stock wasn't dual fitted.  Presumably the train was a Sam Fay initiative.   Bill

 

Good afternoon Bill,

 

departure from Bournemouth west was at 11.16 am in 1949/50, the train arrived in York at 7.29 pm. The service was only worked through to Newcastle in the Summer timetable. It was literally the last express standing at the end of the GC. The evil empire of tiny engines had quite some difficulty trying to shift it.

 

The NE and SR sets provided for the service were quite interesting in the post war period. Maunsell set 459, featured above, retained its pre BR livery and first and third class designations, until withdrawn from the service in 1952.

[robertcwp]

More on the Bournemouth-York/Newcastle here.

[t-b-g]

17 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

The Lanarkshire Models lamps help here. As previously discussed, I think Roy did not think much of other lamps that were available but the LM ones look the part. They are mostly held on with black tack so they can be changed easily, but it means they can go a bit wonky, which is what seems to have happened to the lamps on 60117 in the photo. There seems to be an A4 (possibly Sparrowhawk) with no lamps which is now on a different train to what it had been on. As I took the spare lamps home with me by mistake, Sandra may not have spares at the moment. Trains have tail lamps now as well. 

 

Another small detail is that I can see that Sandra has now dealt with the offending white roof on the leading Pullman car on the up Queen of Scots (behind 60117).

 

Roy always used to see his ultimate modelling trio as being himself, Geoff Kent and John Phillips working together. They tended to have clearly defined tasks within the group, with each of them being very good indeed at some aspects of modelling but not all were experienced or enjoyed all the various jobs involved in building a model railway. Between the three of them, they had all the skills needed to produce a very good layout.

 

Roy would do the construction of a loco but the finishing it off and making it look "pretty" on a layout was never his task. So when it came to a job like fitting lamps, that was outside his job description and he would rather start another loco or carriage rather than go round and fit them. The loco would go to Geoff for painting and the lamps wouldn't go on before painting.

 

He did pass comment a few times on lamps seen on other layouts, saying he would rather have none than the poor things seen often in the press but when the better ones became available, he did decide that they would be fine.

 

I recall that he did obtain some LMS and perhaps some Modelu lamps but he was always hoping that one of the gang would mention lamps one day and the response would have been "That could be a job for you".

 

He didn't like asking people to do things. He liked somebody to say "Is there something I can do?" first. That was how the "Retford Mob" worked. You had to second guess just what he wanted and how he wanted it doing sometimes. It was all part of the fascination of working with Roy! 

 

Most of the gang had their hands full with various tasks and nobody really stepped forward to sort out the lamps, so the task had still not been attended to when Roy passed away.

 

I just like to draw a distinction between things that Roy "did wrong" and things that were either done on a temporary basis to be sorted out properly later (like some of the train formations) or were still on the "to get around to" list, like lamps.  

[bbishop]

2 hours ago, robertcwp said:

More on the Bournemouth-York/Newcastle here.

The story of the SR inter-regional stock is interesting.  It needs Gould and King open at the same time!  Busy at the moment, I'll write it up later.  Bill

[thegreenhowards]

Can I ask what may be a stupid question? I am trying to backdate my O gauge N1 to LNER livery and want to know what to use to line it. I believe that they were lined with single red lines but double lines round the boiler bands. However it’s quite difficult to be sure as on the black and white photos of the era the red fades into the black. Hornby and Bachmann seem to use a single think red line on the boiler bands but I think that’s wrong.
 

Looking at the Fox website they don’t do any specific LNER red lining. So I’m think of using their 0.35mm general purpose red lining for most of the loco and BR double red lining for the boiler bands. Does that seem a reasonable approach or is there a better answer out there (short of a bow pen which I’ve tried with no success)?
 

Thanks for any help.

 

Andy

 

 

[gr.king]

I imagine that BR double red lining (for black locos) should suit the boiler bands, with general purpose single red lines just within the edges of the various panels, the bunker sides and rear being treated as one single long panel wrapped around the three faces. 

[robertcwp]

Deleted as I messed up the quote!

Edited January 26, 2021 by robertcwp
As explained above.

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

He didn't like asking people to do things. He liked somebody to say "Is there something I can do?" first. That was how the "Retford Mob" worked. You had to second guess just what he wanted and how he wanted it doing sometimes. It was all part of the fascination of working with Roy! 

 

Most of the gang had their hands full with various tasks and nobody really stepped forward to sort out the lamps, so the task had still not been attended to when Roy passed away.

 

I just like to draw a distinction between things that Roy "did wrong" and things that were either done on a temporary basis to be sorted out properly later (like some of the train formations) or were still on the "to get around to" list, like lamps.  

Lamps have now largely become a job for me. 

 

I don't doubt they were in the category of things that hadn't been done yet rather than things that were done wrong. Not sure that Roy ever did anything wrong.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

Roy always used to see his ultimate modelling trio as being himself, Geoff Kent and John Phillips working together. They tended to have clearly defined tasks within the group, with each of them being very good indeed at some aspects of modelling but not all were experienced or enjoyed all the various jobs involved in building a model railway. Between the three of them, they had all the skills needed to produce a very good layout.

 

Roy would do the construction of a loco but the finishing it off and making it look "pretty" on a layout was never his task. So when it came to a job like fitting lamps, that was outside his job description and he would rather start another loco or carriage rather than go round and fit them. The loco would go to Geoff for painting and the lamps wouldn't go on before painting.

 

He did pass comment a few times on lamps seen on other layouts, saying he would rather have none than the poor things seen often in the press but when the better ones became available, he did decide that they would be fine.

 

I recall that he did obtain some LMS and perhaps some Modelu lamps but he was always hoping that one of the gang would mention lamps one day and the response would have been "That could be a job for you".

 

He didn't like asking people to do things. He liked somebody to say "Is there something I can do?" first. That was how the "Retford Mob" worked. You had to second guess just what he wanted and how he wanted it doing sometimes. It was all part of the fascination of working with Roy! 

 

Most of the gang had their hands full with various tasks and nobody really stepped forward to sort out the lamps, so the task had still not been attended to when Roy passed away.

 

I just like to draw a distinction between things that Roy "did wrong" and things that were either done on a temporary basis to be sorted out properly later (like some of the train formations) or were still on the "to get around to" list, like lamps.  

I'm sure you're right, Tony, that lamps in the past (4mm ones) have been grossly-over-scale, and worse than no lamps at all.

 

I don't think I could have worked under a 'regime' where there were 'loose', not really-defined roles, fascinating though it might be. When the Stoke Summit 'gang' sat down (over a pint, of course), those jobs which needed doing were set out and allocated to members. Each one then took on the responsibility. I think my task (as the layout was being built) was to 'make all the big green engines and all the black engines, and some of the expresses' (luckily, others chipped in as well). Another role of mine was to make the tea/coffee, provide the biscuits and take the photographs. The same format was used in the building of Charwelton and Little Bytham, which, I think, worked. Granted, none of these layouts was anywhere near as big as Retford, though all three put together might well be, and all were finished. 

 

In fairness to Roy, it must have been very frustrating to not be able to do what he once did with ease and speed. I recall visiting about a year before he died and he was pondering over a carriage he was building. None of the four (or five!) pairs of glasses around his neck seemed to work, and he just shoved the work aside after we'd looked at it. That said, that last A1 he'd made (GREAT CENTRAL) was as fine a locomotive model as I've ever seen.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Tony Wright]

A further plea for help, please...............

 

 

Can anyone identify this train, please? 

 

It's leaving Lincoln and heading south east down the joint line. The date is given as 1961, but that can't be right. I'd guess no later than 1957 because there's no evidence of the Pelham Street flyover in the background. 

 

Could it be the North Country Continental boat train, though it's got a BG in the middle? There appears to be a catering car as the sixth carriage. 

 

Could it be a Newcastle or York-Colchester train?

 

Any ideas gratefully-received.

 

Many thanks in anticipation. 

 

 

[t-b-g]

25 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Lamps have now largely become a job for me. 

 

I don't doubt they were in the category of things that hadn't been done yet rather than things that were done wrong. Not sure that Roy ever did anything wrong.

 

Roy got plenty of things wrong. He just didn't splash it all over the internet! It was all part of the working under the radar that I have talked about.

 

I can recall several times when a failure went against a wall at a great rate of knots, or a carriage got folded in half. Usually accompanied by something muttered about "That was annoying me (the language has been moderated!) but it won't do it again".

 

26 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm sure you're right, Tony, that lamps in the past (4mm ones) have been grossly-over-scale, and worse than no lamps at all.

 

I don't think I could have worked under a 'regime' where there were 'loose', not really-defined roles, fascinating though it might be. When the Stoke Summit 'gang' sat down (over a pint, of course), those jobs which needed doing were set out and allocated to members. Each one then took on the responsibility. I think my task (as the layout was being built) was to 'make all the big green engines and all the black engines, and some of the expresses' (luckily, others chipped in as well). Another role of mine was to make the tea/coffee, provide the biscuits and take the photographs. The same format was used in the building of Charwelton and Little Bytham, which, I think, worked. Granted, none of these layouts was anywhere near as big as Retford, though all three put together might well be, and all were finished. 

 

In fairness to Roy, it must have been very frustrating to not be able to do what he once did with ease and speed. I recall visiting about a year before he died and he was pondering over a carriage he was building. None of the four (or five!) pairs of glasses around his neck seemed to work, and he just shoved the work aside after we'd looked at it. That said, that last A1 he'd made (GREAT CENTRAL) was as fine a locomotive model as I've ever seen.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Towards the end, his glasses were so thick that he couldn't look along a carriage to see if the side was straight any more. Everything looked like a banana. I tried them on once and couldn't see a thing. How he built "Great Central" with eyesight like that was remarkable although he had started it some time ago.

 

Roy had many qualities but leadership was not one of them! I often think about how much more quickly the layout would have progressed if he had been better in that department. Having said that, the many hours spent sitting, drinking tea and putting the world to rights were just as much fun as working on the layout.

[robertcwp]

46 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Roy got plenty of things wrong. He just didn't splash it all over the internet! It was all part of the working under the radar that I have talked about.

 

I can recall several times when a failure went against a wall at a great rate of knots, or a carriage got folded in half. Usually accompanied by something muttered about "That was annoying me (the language has been moderated!) but it won't do it again".

 

 

Towards the end, his glasses were so thick that he couldn't look along a carriage to see if the side was straight any more. Everything looked like a banana. I tried them on once and couldn't see a thing. How he built "Great Central" with eyesight like that was remarkable although he had started it some time ago.

 

Roy had many qualities but leadership was not one of them! I often think about how much more quickly the layout would have progressed if he had been better in that department. Having said that, the many hours spent sitting, drinking tea and putting the world to rights were just as much fun as working on the layout.

I remember Roy mentioning the eyesight issue to me. It's something that concerns me too as, at 55, I'm already aware that my eyes are getting worse, largely due to decades of looking at computer screens, mainly for work. 

 

Roy set himself very high standards and it must have been very frustrating for him when he felt he wasn't meeting those standards himself.

[Tony Wright]

It's interesting regarding the topic of 'leadership'. 

 

I've come across it many times, and, if it 'works', with regard to layout-building, the results can be remarkable. 

 

One could argue that is a leader necessary? Tony Gee has mentioned the 'dream' team of Roy Jackson, Geoff Kent and John Phillips. Outstanding creations such as High Dyke and Dunwich were proof that joint 'leadership' (or no leadership at all) is no barrier to excellence. Roy always thought it a great shame that Geoff wasn't really interested in Retford, though others' architectural modelling on it have been wonderful - Babworth 'box and West Carr Road spring to mind. 

 

In my view, the 'best' layouts created are either the work of one man (the ultimate 'leader') or a team (usually small) of like-minded individuals all sharing similar skill levels and similar aims. A 'leader' can bring a team together (though two autocratic 'bosses', or more, usually fails). Often layouts fail because of this, or they 'suffer' from democracy where no minimum standards are set, there is no consistency of place or purpose and friction then occurs. Many vast club layouts end up like this in my experience. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Ross Natoin]

On 24/01/2021 at 17:50, Ben Alder said:

Apparently SEF has been taken over by Squires and Dave is concentrating on the Nucast range only, and is in a bit of a hiatus just now with that. I don't know if Squires are going to continue to be as obliging as Dave was with regard to spares and bits from kits.

Yes this appears to be the case. It was stated in the email response I received. However I believe Dave has helped them gain the correct moulds to keep producing spares. 
 

Ross.

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

A further plea for help, please...............

 

 

Can anyone identify this train, please? 

 

It's leaving Lincoln and heading south east down the joint line. The date is given as 1961, but that can't be right. I'd guess no later than 1957 because there's no evidence of the Pelham Street flyover in the background. 

 

Could it be the North Country Continental boat train, though it's got a BG in the middle? There appears to be a catering car as the sixth carriage. 

 

Could it be a Newcastle or York-Colchester train?

 

Any ideas gratefully-received.

 

Many thanks in anticipation. 

 

 

The boat train ran with a BG in the middle for most, if not all, of the 1950s. I can't match this train to the information I have on the boat train but that information is sketchy. By 1954, there were Mark 1s in the train. The catering car looks like a Tourist Stock buffet. The first carriage looks like a locker composite.

 

A quick search indicates that 61656 was rebuilt from Class B17/4 to Class B17/6 Nov 1953.

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

It's interesting regarding the topic of 'leadership'. 

 

I've come across it many times, and, if it 'works', with regard to layout-building, the results can be remarkable. 

 

One could argue that is a leader necessary? Tony Gee has mentioned the 'dream' team of Roy Jackson, Geoff Kent and John Phillips. Outstanding creations such as High Dyke and Dunwich were proof that joint 'leadership' (or no leadership at all) is no barrier to excellence. Roy always thought it a great shame that Geoff wasn't really interested in Retford, though others' architectural modelling on it have been wonderful - Babworth 'box and West Carr road spring to mind. 

 

In my view, the 'best' layouts created are either the work of one man (the ultimate 'leader') or a team (usually small) of like-minded individuals all sharing similar skill levels and similar aims. A 'leader' can bring a team together (though two autocratic 'bosses', or more, usually fails). Often layouts fail because of this, or they 'suffer' from democracy where no minimum standards are set, there is no consistency of place or purpose and friction then occurs. Many vast club layouts end up like this in my experience. 

 

You are right, Roy always hoped that when he had done "his bit", getting the layout up and the track down and running, the Geoff and John would abandon their own projects and do "their bit".

 

He had to put up with us lot instead!

 

He didn't mind reminding us that we were merely substitutes for the "real" team either!

 

The whole set up of the project was always hugely informal. Even the whole "Retford Mob" thing just sort of grew from Roy's frustration that the layout had ground to a halt and me saying "I will never be as good as John and Geoff but if you want some scenery I will have a go". It was never planned and no thought was put into it. It just happened and gradually became the regular sessions with a good number of people involved. Many of us gave up huge amounts of time freely and happily, in return for tea, biscuits, friendship and no small amount of verbal abuse.

 

The whole dynamic of people working together on a layout has always been something I have really enjoyed in the hobby and I have always been much more productive working with people than working alone. Whether it has been with Tony Johnson, Malcolm Crawley, Ken Hill or Roy, four very different personalities, I have enjoyed the teamwork aspect very much.  

[Tony Wright]

25 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

You are right, Roy always hoped that when he had done "his bit", getting the layout up and the track down and running, the Geoff and John would abandon their own projects and do "their bit".

 

He had to put up with us lot instead!

 

He didn't mind reminding us that we were merely substitutes for the "real" team either!

 

The whole set up of the project was always hugely informal. Even the whole "Retford Mob" thing just sort of grew from Roy's frustration that the layout had ground to a halt and me saying "I will never be as good as John and Geoff but if you want some scenery I will have a go". It was never planned and no thought was put into it. It just happened and gradually became the regular sessions with a good number of people involved. Many of us gave up huge amounts of time freely and happily, in return for tea, biscuits, friendship and no small amount of verbal abuse.

 

The whole dynamic of people working together on a layout has always been something I have really enjoyed in the hobby and I have always been much more productive working with people than working alone. Whether it has been with Tony Johnson, Malcolm Crawley, Ken Hill or Roy, four very different personalities, I have enjoyed the teamwork aspect very much.  

 "I will never be as good as John and Geoff"

 

You're wrong there, Tony.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

Returning to the future Retford 'dynamics'........................

 

Obviously, this Covid thing has scuppered any early hope of meetings (and I've just been watching a frightening programme about how it began!), but once folk are able to meet up again, I can't see any impediment to Retford's progress. The will would certainly seem to be there among the Retford 'mob', and members will surely wish to see their work continued and completed. 

 

Robert Carroll and I might be seen as new 'mob' members, but I'm putting my money where my mouth is by committing to the task, now that my own trainset is finished; if nothing more than making EM frames and taking progress pictures. Oh yes, and making telegraph poles!

[robertcwp]

7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Returning to the future Retford 'dynamics'........................

 

Obviously, this Covid thing has scuppered any early hope of meetings (and I've just been watching a frightening programme about how it began!), but once folk are able to meet up again, I can't see any impediment to Retford's progress. The will would certainly seem to be there among the Retford 'mob', and members will surely wish to see their work continued and completed. 

 

Robert Carroll and I might be seen as new 'mob' members, but I'm putting my money where my mouth is by committing to the task, now that my own trainset is finished; if nothing more than making EM frames and taking progress pictures. Oh yes, and making telegraph poles!

Point rodding? 

[t-b-g]

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 "I will never be as good as John and Geoff"

 

You're wrong there, Tony.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

John is very much the "unsung" member of the group but having seen his "going the extra mile" to get things right on the things he has built for Doncaster where I would have said "good enough" is second to none.

 

And Geoff? Every time I do something and think I am doing well, I look at his work and realise that I still have much to learn.

 

Going back to my signalbox, Geoff would have hand carved all the bricks, with proper square corners and closer bricks in the corners.

 

When I said that to Roy, it was nearly 20 years ago and I may have closed the gap a bit since but I still look up to those two and just think how lucky I am to have such gifted friends.

[sandra]

9 hours ago, robertcwp said:

The Lanarkshire Models lamps help here. As previously discussed, I think Roy did not think much of other lamps that were available but the LM ones look the part. They are mostly held on with black tack so they can be changed easily, but it means they can go a bit wonky, which is what seems to have happened to the lamps on 60117 in the photo. There seems to be an A4 (possibly Sparrowhawk) with no lamps which is now on a different train to what it had been on. As I took the spare lamps home with me by mistake, Sandra may not have spares at the moment. Trains have tail lamps now as well. 

 

Another small detail is that I can see that Sandra has now dealt with the offending white roof on the leading Pullman car on the up Queen of Scots (behind 60117).

Hello Robert, yes I have run out of lamps so I’ll have to buy some. The A4 60018 Sparrow Hawk is the one without lamps. This locomotive has given lots of trouble, it derails and it can’t pull a heavy train up the gradient without slipping to a halt. The problem is that the front bogie, the driving wheels and the tender wheels are all compensated. The front bogie also has a spring.

 

To cut a long story short after much experimentation and some not inconsiderable amount of swearing I found that the principal problem was the spring on the bogie being too strong so I fitted a lighter one, I also removed the compensation unit from the tender. So the loco is now better but I don’t trust it with a passenger train so for the time being its been demoted to a humble goods train.

 

I have painted the roof of the first carriage in the Queen of Scots Pullman but it is not a good match for the rest of the train so I’ll have to have another go at this. I do find carriage roofs to be difficult to get right, often the colour is too blue as in this case so I’ll have to experiment further possibly including brown or green in the mix.

Sandra

[AndyID]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

 

Though such things bewilder me (I just did O-level Physics), I'm sure they work.

 

However (being me, there's always one of those), I obtain 'perfect' running by having plenty of pick-ups, excellent wiring and by keeping my track thoroughly clean. That way, stuttering is eradicated. 

 

Though I'm not citing what you've just promulgated, I've come across several 'electronic' panaceas for all running ills. I'm sure they help, but, on personal investigation, it's almost invariable that there's something wrong with the loco/track/feeds at source. The symptoms are being addressed, not the root cause. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

Hi Tony,

 

I'm afraid I have never been able to obtain that degree of low-speed consistency even with squeaky clean wheels and track. I prefer to think of it as an "enhancement" rather than a panacea

 

I suspect that you might view it a bit more favorably if I was able to demonstrate it to you in person but that would present some logistic problems at the best of times and make it almost impossible at the moment.

 

My much modified Mainline "Illustrious" (ex LMS, sorry) includes a Sagami can motor, Romfordized wheels, a new chassis with proper pickups. It has always performed extremely well but since I added the caps its low speed performance is quite amazing. It will creep along at walking pace without the slightest hesitation.

 

I think it's possible to achieve similar performance with DCC but I've never seen similar results with smooth DC (which is the kindest way to power a DC motor).

 

Radio control with on-board batteries is likely the most reliable way to power a shunter and I was heading in that direction. Then I thought I might be able to achieve similar results just by adding some super-caps with DC. I think it comes pretty close. The "acid test" is to see if I can make an OO L&Y Pug perform that well.

 

Best regards,

Andy

 

(Gosh it's cold here. The wood stove is blazing but it's not doing much to raise the temperature in my shed/shop.)

 

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Returning to the future Retford 'dynamics'........................

 

Obviously, this Covid thing has scuppered any early hope of meetings (and I've just been watching a frightening programme about how it began!), but once folk are able to meet up again, I can't see any impediment to Retford's progress. The will would certainly seem to be there among the Retford 'mob', and members will surely wish to see their work continued and completed. 

 

Robert Carroll and I might be seen as new 'mob' members, but I'm putting my money where my mouth is by committing to the task, now that my own trainset is finished; if nothing more than making EM frames and taking progress pictures. Oh yes, and making telegraph poles!

 

The "Retford Mob" thing isn't about who works on the layout. It is just a bunch of friends and exists separately in its own right. Roy was the gang leader and the reason it formed but it functions as a social group even though he has gone. When we can, we meet up, go out and do things as a group and during the present problems we have an email group and lots of photos going round sharing what we are up to and there are lots of phone calls keeping us in touch. It has been really nice having such a bunch of friends during these difficult times.

 

So working to complete Retford and being part of the "Retford Mob" are two distinct things.

 

Perhaps a new phrase should be coined to describe Sandra and the good people helping her to progress the layout. Any suggestions?

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

Perhaps a new phrase should be coined to describe Sandra and the good people helping her to progress the layout. Any suggestions?

The Sandringhams?

 

(sorry - the first thing that popped into my head!)