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I have a question now.

 

Does anyone know anything about this model, please?

 

DSC_5021.JPG.16c58c1406a428e99472625af9919f97.JPG

 

It's N Gauge and I've labelled it 'Union Mills' in the folder it comes from. 

 

Where I photographed it, I can't remember, though it was when I was building 'Big Bertha'. 

 

I've also forgotten who plonked it in front of my camera. 

 

It has a look of a Q1, but none of those made it to BR times, and the tender looks like an LNER Group Standard type. It's numbered as a Q6 (I think), but it's definitely not one of those.

 

Other items I've photographed from Union Mills are much more-accurate, so why have I labelled it thus? 

 

As I say, any ideas, please?  

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, 31A said:

 

I looked at lots of pictures of A4s in BR livery recently when I was weathering my 60013, and certainly found a few where it looked as though the roof eaves were painted green (although as you say, difficult to tell), so I left them green on mine.  I concluded that it was possible that they were painted green, but rarely cleaned.

 

Good afternoon Steve,

 

I've looked through my collection of potentially-helpful shots and found none which shows the area above the cab roof eaves to be green.

 

Granted, none of the following shows an ex-works loco, but most are clean....................

 

695028074_cabroofcolour01.jpg.aa4cb679a5d8fcf738ef471be6843824.jpg

 

Though there (slight) evidence of green above the beading on the tender, the cab roof is all-over black. 

 

1992029451_cabroofcolour02.jpg.9a88dc355f6b6ca58a44ffb44831457d.jpg

 

2036256113_cabroofcolour03.jpg.aab83f56fc76d5f78a105715bc6db39f.jpg

 

82571719_cabroofcolour04.jpg.f5790fb8746f6fad815eb8cd5ef13bf4.jpg

 

Note how the green (just) carries over the top curve on the tender, but there's no evidence of it on the cab roof.

 

314407859_cabroofcolour05.jpg.50e58bb0c293d33f9cc258ba4836d65d.jpg

 

403726547_cabroofcolour06.jpg.95dba5ea0c9660f35e33d8a3f551b817.jpg

 

1043214866_cabroofcolour08.jpg.e1c497717fe76da4022d609dbc46c9bf.jpg

 

 

And, just to prove I'm definitely not always right..............

 

1327758199_cabroofcolour07.jpg.483d4f6e0014bf3f93b9af61a1c0ee84.jpg

 

Didn't I state that the cab roof above the eaves was green when the locos were in LNER apple green? 

 

Anyway, just what is LNER green? Is one in Darlington's interpretation and the other in Doncaster's? 

 

Is it safe to say that, whatever the painting spec might have stated, for a working model, it's best to paint the cab roofs all-over black?

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, richard i said:

One of the best n gauge / 2mm layouts I saw was just down from you at the last show I visited before lock down ,  Stevenage? Milton Keynes? It was not that long, had a small station at one end and ran green diesels but it looked great and drew you in. I watched it for ages, but can’t remember its name. 
if you went round the show with your camera, maybe you have a shot of it which would illustrate to others what I mean.

richard 

Stevenage, last year, I think Richard.

 

Little Salkeld......................

 

459185093_LittleSalkeld12.jpg.a7091d0a2b842618dfb2b2881d950a4f.jpg

 

2069171306_LittleSalkeld14.jpg.a94cc80466113547d30459b3dd395362.jpg

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Stevenage, last year, I think Richard.

 

Little Salkeld......................

 

459185093_LittleSalkeld12.jpg.a7091d0a2b842618dfb2b2881d950a4f.jpg

 

2069171306_LittleSalkeld14.jpg.a94cc80466113547d30459b3dd395362.jpg

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Having helped Paul with a few minor parts of the build I can confirm that at least one of the layout builders has 'Pedigree'....more specifically 'Pedigree Chum' as I made a right dogs mess of working in 2mm :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 

 

Phew! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that as it was (is?) otherwise a fantastic layout, fulling deserving of the accolades on here.

 

I think it's a bit harsh (John) to say that it spoiled the illusion totally. For me it 'jarred a bit', but it was easy enough to simply ignore the left hand end and concentrate on the amazing recreation of the gorge of the Wye valley. Absolutely the best use of 2mm scale and impractical to do in 4mm as you wouldn't be able to get at the centre to either model or view it.

 

I saw it at several shows and 'stayed to the death' at its final show (Manchester - obviously - can't remember the year) to see the 'last' train run.

That's what spoiled it for me as well - the Midland had the largest multi track mileage in the world at one time and never as far as I know had a single track main line.

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

 

 

1327758199_cabroofcolour07.jpg.483d4f6e0014bf3f93b9af61a1c0ee84.jpg

 

Didn't I state that the cab roof above the eaves was green when the locos were in LNER apple green? 

 

Anyway, just what is LNER green? Is one in Darlington's interpretation and the other in Doncaster's? 

 

Is it safe to say that, whatever the painting spec might have stated, for a working model, it's best to paint the cab roofs all-over black?

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 


That last image is interesting Tony in the context of RTR manufacturers attempting to get the colours consistent and ‘right’ on their offerings, and dare I say it, occasionally getting taken to task in magazine reviews.  
 

Regards

 

Russ

Edited by 4630
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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

403726547_cabroofcolour06.jpg.95dba5ea0c9660f35e33d8a3f551b817.jpg

 

 

 

 

Tony,

 

Your pictures suggest that the roofs are either black or very dirty, however I think there is a hint of green on some - particularly 60107 above. These photos are colour and therefore presumably early '60s or very late '50s? I seems to me that it's quite possible that they were painted green in the early to mid '50s and that clean ones - like those on the Lizzie, would show some evidence of that green.

 

I think I'll cover my options and paint No.13 black, but leave No.9 green and weather it lightly.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Andy

 

 

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5 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Morning Greenie,

 

Re roof colour, it's something that Tony keeps pointing out to you and you keep ignoring, . I don't have a dogma in the fight, I just find it funny. I assumed that you know better and with a bit of prompting, you might provide some interesting evidence.

 

I almost forgot, I have a set of drawings from the Department of Railways, New South Wales, for the Whistle fitted to 60012 if you are interested? I think they are similar.

Afternoon 'Heady',

 

I vaguely remember an exchange on here in the past although I don't think it was about one of my models. I certainly couldn't remember the conclusion. Anyway, the debate it has unleashed has been informative and Tony has provided plenty of evidence although I still think the jury's out on whether all locos were black, particularly in the early '50s.

 

Your whistle drawings would be very useful - thanks for the offer.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Steve,

 

I've looked through my collection of potentially-helpful shots and found none which shows the area above the cab roof eaves to be green.

 

Granted, none of the following shows an ex-works loco, but most are clean....................

 

695028074_cabroofcolour01.jpg.aa4cb679a5d8fcf738ef471be6843824.jpg

 

Though there (slight) evidence of green above the beading on the tender, the cab roof is all-over black. 

 

1992029451_cabroofcolour02.jpg.9a88dc355f6b6ca58a44ffb44831457d.jpg

 

2036256113_cabroofcolour03.jpg.aab83f56fc76d5f78a105715bc6db39f.jpg

 

82571719_cabroofcolour04.jpg.f5790fb8746f6fad815eb8cd5ef13bf4.jpg

 

Note how the green (just) carries over the top curve on the tender, but there's no evidence of it on the cab roof.

 

314407859_cabroofcolour05.jpg.50e58bb0c293d33f9cc258ba4836d65d.jpg

 

403726547_cabroofcolour06.jpg.95dba5ea0c9660f35e33d8a3f551b817.jpg

 

1043214866_cabroofcolour08.jpg.e1c497717fe76da4022d609dbc46c9bf.jpg

 

 

And, just to prove I'm definitely not always right..............

 

1327758199_cabroofcolour07.jpg.483d4f6e0014bf3f93b9af61a1c0ee84.jpg

 

Didn't I state that the cab roof above the eaves was green when the locos were in LNER apple green? 

 

Anyway, just what is LNER green? Is one in Darlington's interpretation and the other in Doncaster's? 

 

Is it safe to say that, whatever the painting spec might have stated, for a working model, it's best to paint the cab roofs all-over black?

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

did BR paint the eaves on ex LNER Pacific's body colour? The answer is yes, at least on some locomotives. It was a bit of a pointless exercise, as the area was obliterated by dirt within days and nobody bothered to clean that area. The LNER had found the same thing before the war and seem to have discontinued the practice.

 

60129 

 

1554732136_60149roofcolour.jpg.2c694a2d272ca7971836ea94be56aea8.jpg

 

60103.

 

 

2087539114_FlyingScotsmanRoof.jpg.edd3d271743a28a6bf3f06fd86a79994.jpg

 

On the other hand, 60501 looks to be in plain black. 

 

60501.jpg.10df334f4476cf3568163363d85c1c83.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Headstock
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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Stevenage, last year, I think Richard.

 

Little Salkeld......................

 

459185093_LittleSalkeld12.jpg.a7091d0a2b842618dfb2b2881d950a4f.jpg

 

2069171306_LittleSalkeld14.jpg.a94cc80466113547d30459b3dd395362.jpg

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Yes thank you Tony, it really was worth the admission ticket price on its own, and that is from a pregrouping modeler.
Richard  

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1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Afternoon 'Heady',

 

I vaguely remember an exchange on here in the past although I don't think it was about one of my models. I certainly couldn't remember the conclusion. Anyway, the debate it has unleashed has been informative and Tony has provided plenty of evidence although I still think the jury's out on whether all locos were black, particularly in the early '50s.

 

Your whistle drawings would be very useful - thanks for the offer.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Evening Greenoid,

 

I'll PM you after diner with the Whistle drawings.

 

One colour black / dirty roofs on ex LNER Pacific's, would have been the norm out on the road. Only ex works running in turns show such a clean roof, if it had not been painted over all black The amount of weathering applied to your A4 loco, I don't see how the cab roof stayed so clean, it must have been wearing a nice greenie hat.

 

60034.jpg.2d4c2336e72bd3e5bb26fa94ac075355.jpg

 

 

Edited by Headstock
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6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Steve,

 

I've looked through my collection of potentially-helpful shots and found none which shows the area above the cab roof eaves to be green.

 

Granted, none of the following shows an ex-works loco, but most are clean....................

 

695028074_cabroofcolour01.jpg.aa4cb679a5d8fcf738ef471be6843824.jpg

 

Though there (slight) evidence of green above the beading on the tender, the cab roof is all-over black. 

 

1992029451_cabroofcolour02.jpg.9a88dc355f6b6ca58a44ffb44831457d.jpg

 

2036256113_cabroofcolour03.jpg.aab83f56fc76d5f78a105715bc6db39f.jpg

 

82571719_cabroofcolour04.jpg.f5790fb8746f6fad815eb8cd5ef13bf4.jpg

 

Note how the green (just) carries over the top curve on the tender, but there's no evidence of it on the cab roof.

 

314407859_cabroofcolour05.jpg.50e58bb0c293d33f9cc258ba4836d65d.jpg

 

403726547_cabroofcolour06.jpg.95dba5ea0c9660f35e33d8a3f551b817.jpg

 

1043214866_cabroofcolour08.jpg.e1c497717fe76da4022d609dbc46c9bf.jpg

 

 

And, just to prove I'm definitely not always right..............

 

1327758199_cabroofcolour07.jpg.483d4f6e0014bf3f93b9af61a1c0ee84.jpg

 

Didn't I state that the cab roof above the eaves was green when the locos were in LNER apple green? 

 

Anyway, just what is LNER green? Is one in Darlington's interpretation and the other in Doncaster's? 

 

Is it safe to say that, whatever the painting spec might have stated, for a working model, it's best to paint the cab roofs all-over black?

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Not on a C1 though? :)

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4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

Your pictures suggest that the roofs are either black or very dirty, however I think there is a hint of green on some - particularly 60107 above. These photos are colour and therefore presumably early '60s or very late '50s? I seems to me that it's quite possible that they were painted green in the early to mid '50s and that clean ones - like those on the Lizzie, would show some evidence of that green.

 

I think I'll cover my options and paint No.13 black, but leave No.9 green and weather it lightly.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Andy

 

 

Good evening Andy,

 

I think you're looking at it with the 'eye' of faith'. 

 

Does anyone have irrefutable photographic proof as to that roof colour, please? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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3 hours ago, grahame said:

 

I've some (photos of Fencehouses, that is), although they're not very good. Here's a few of them:

 

DSC_5464red.jpg.f8c7f120c437385956bf7823ffc121e0.jpg

 

P1050672red.jpg.37d7048184baccdbd42a5a56b1483d30.jpg

 

P1050673red.jpg.52dc7c2c8e94cb061dc5156329faf605.jpg

 

P1050674red.jpg.f6faad1f4fd6a52355b02c9e9775414f.jpg

 

P1050675red.jpg.27159b8f9eff4f61ef84471910c4b495.jpg

 

P1050676red.jpg.1992ca212d9d7a13738b5853527a0a94.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Superlative modelling!

 

Thanks for showing us Grahame.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Greenoid,

 

I'll PM you after diner with the Whistle drawings.

 

One colour black / dirty roofs on ex LNER Pacific's, would have been the norm out on the road. Only ex works running in turns show such a clean roof, if it had not been painted over all black The amount of weathering applied to your A4 loco, I don't see how the cab roof stayed so clean, it must have been wearing a nice greenie hat.

 

60034.jpg.2d4c2336e72bd3e5bb26fa94ac075355.jpg

 

 

What a wonderful picture Andrew,

 

Thanks for showing us. 

 

It also shows an interesting livery variant, unique to only three A4s as far as I know; that of lining the firebox cladding band. It was obviously a local thing (unless Darlington applied it), and the other two were 60019 and 60024 (were there others?). It was at the end of their lives. 

 

Another livery oddity is how the parabolic curved lining at the front goes right into the valance, not running along it to the first cladding band. 60019 also had this (and did 60024?). 

 

Other points of note? 60034 is towing a streamlined non-corridor tender, something she had in exchange with FLYING SCOTSMAN in 1963, losing her 1928-style corridor tender, complete with lowered rear. 60024 also lost her corridor tender (getting 60034's in the process?), but only for the last few weeks of her life. 

 

I think your picture is pretty conclusive in that, whatever the works' painting schemes might have been with regard to the colour of the cab roof above the eaves, in practice (after a week or so of work) they'd be all-over black.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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4 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Tony,

 

did BR paint the eves on ex LNER Pacific's body colour? The answer is yes, at least on some locomotives. It was a bit of a pointless exercise, as the area was obliterated by dirt within days and nobody bothered to clean that area. The LNER had found the same thing before the war and seem to have discontinued the practice.

 

60129 

 

1554732136_60149roofcolour.jpg.2c694a2d272ca7971836ea94be56aea8.jpg

 

60103.

 

 

2087539114_FlyingScotsmanRoof.jpg.edd3d271743a28a6bf3f06fd86a79994.jpg

 

On the other hand, 60501 looks to be in plain black. 

 

60501.jpg.10df334f4476cf3568163363d85c1c83.jpg

 

 

 

 

Many thanks Andrew,

 

Interestingly, the blue paint on 60129's roof extends to above the rainstrip.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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15 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Interestingly, the blue paint on 60129's roof extends to above the rainstrip.

 

It all goes to show: never trust official drawings

 

A1 livery drawing.jpg

Edited by LNER4479
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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

What a wonderful picture Andrew,

 

Thanks for showing us. 

 

It also shows an interesting livery variant, unique to only three A4s as far as I know; that of lining the firebox cladding band. It was obviously a local thing (unless Darlington applied it), and the other two were 60019 and 60024 (were there others?). It was at the end of their lives. 

 

Another livery oddity is how the parabolic curved lining at the front goes right into the valance, not running along it to the first cladding band. 60019 also had this (and did 60024?). 

 

Other points of note? 60034 is towing a streamlined non-corridor tender, something she had in exchange with FLYING SCOTSMAN in 1963, losing her 1928-style corridor tender, complete with lowered rear. 60024 also lost her corridor tender (getting 60034's in the process?), but only for the last few weeks of her life. 

 

I think your picture is pretty conclusive in that, whatever the works' painting schemes might have been with regard to the colour of the cab roof above the eaves, in practice (after a week or so of work) they'd be all-over black.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

I thought you might appreciate the firebox cladding band. I always paint/weather the roofs of my Pacific's to the same sooty black colour, why? You can look at hundreds upon hundreds of photographs and that's what the look like. Even photographs of engines four days out of works, if they had any body coloured roof area, it's has gone under a layer of grime. I have two photographs of A4's on the road with green roof edges, they are brand spanking new,  just off the plant and obviously on a running in turns. Copy the real railway and you can't go far wrong.

 

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Many thanks Andrew,

 

Interestingly, the blue paint on 60129's roof extends to above the rainstrip.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I have another photo of an A1, it is a black and white print but the division between the blue paint and the black is clear, I will dig it out and check to see if it is the same. In the meantime here's Silver link done in the same fashion, notice how the band matches with the tender.

 

172123737_2509silverlinkexworks.jpg.e0aae506e06aaff6c4b97a1938e1f35d.jpg

 

Silver Link is starting to get dirty eaves here.

 

1863250779_Dirtylink.jpg.25ac65a576ab9b1c69995b9fda63cb3b.jpg

 

All gone black!

 

699467709_6506Dirtyroof.jpg.2edf608387fdee67f1c6a84077d6f8d5.jpg

 

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

It all goes to show: never trust official drawings

 

A1 livery drawing.jpg

 

Good evening Graham,

 

I don't think that all cab roofs on all engines were painted with body colour eaves. The problem is, you can't really tell unless it's an ex works shot.

Edited by Headstock
add letters, keyboard battery change time.
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