Wright writes.....

[LNER4479]

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Some time ago, I wrote a little piece in BRILL regarding the quartet of Canal A3s, stating that they were the rarest of their type on the ECML, especially in the south. An old friend who lived in Hatfield in his trainspotting years showed me his Combined Volume of 1959, and (apart from CICERO) the only A3 gaps were the four from Carlisle Canal. After the publication of my article, I was amused a couple of months later to read a piece of correspondence in BRILL's letters' pages asking what all the fuss was about. The writer lived in Hawick! 

 

Of course, I'll be needing all four of them (in due course)!

 

Interestingly, Carlisle Canal shed become part of the LMR as a consequence of 1958 boundary changes (68E --> 12C) so said A3s were technically LMR locos at the end! (Canal was also 12B at the start of the BR era)

[Tony Wright]

2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Of course, I'll be needing all four of them (in due course)!

 

Interestingly, Carlisle Canal shed become part of the LMR as a consequence of 1958 boundary changes (68E --> 12C) so said A3s were technically LMR locos at the end! (Canal was also 12B at the start of the BR era)

What was also interesting, because they were effectively LMR locos, they were the only A3s never to receive AWS (I assume the Waverley route wasn't equipped, anyway?). None got the German blinkers either, though they were not fitted to all class members. 

 

Another 'interesting' fact was that two of the quartet (at one time) towed A4-style streamlined non-corridor tenders. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

13 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Clive,

 

I tend to agree with you. For me the decision between the two is not about complexity of wiring (although DCC helps a little,  it’s pretty second order if you’re going to wire the layout properly). Neither is it about more realistic operation. ‘Controlling the train not the track’ may be slightly more realistic but it’s not a big deal compared with running at realistic speeds and with realistic acceleration which most people don’t seem to do on either system! 
 

For me the thee clinchers are:

1. Sound. I agree with Graeme about the din from lots of locos idling at the same time, but the joy of shunting with one loco and having realistic thrash and brake sounds (amongst others) really makes a difference.

2. Momentum/ braking. I know this is/ was available on DC but I find the DCC version much better to use and again it adds to the sense of driving the engine.

3. Stayalive. This dramatically improves running on some locos. I know ‘sir’ will say that I should sort out the root cause of the problems - pick ups or dodgy track. He’s right of course, but back in the real world for mere mortals like myself, sticking a capacitor in is a lot easier.

 

Against that is the heavy price tag which comes with DCC. I wouldn’t recommend anyone with a large stud of locos, particularly kit built ones, changing over. But if starting from scratch I think it makes sense.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Good morning Andy,

 

I think your final point about costs is very important. 

 

It's been mentioned before, I'm sure, but to equip Bytham's stud of locos (around 200!) would come at a very high price. What is the cost of a sound chip (assuming one wanted sound, which would rather be a waste of time/money on LB, anyway)? Or a plain chip? £20.00 for the latter? £4,000.00! That buys a lot of kits. Even if less that £20.00 for each chip, it's still going to be a lot. 

 

Not only that, any all-sheet metal locos have every cubic mm of spare space inside packed with lead; no room for chips.

 

And, though I've mentioned this to distraction, I'm still puzzled by folk who adopt DCC and yet can't install a decoder by themselves. It seems like a recipe for printing money to me................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Steven B]

Surely adopting DCC and paying someone else to install the decoder is no different to getting someone else to build a kit or paint a loco?

 

I've known some really great scenic modellers who would struggle to wire a DC shunting plank.

 

Personally I don't think I've ever seen the big advantages of DCC properly exploited on a layout. I don't recall seeing pilot or bankers being added, nor locos whistles being used correctly.

 

 

Steven B.

[Iain.d]

A bit more modelling…

 

I have recently completed my rebuild of two LMS BSK D2161s. I’m pleased how they have turned out. I managed to finish them a little while before I thought would, mostly due to Perth having a lockdown from 6pm Sunday just gone, to this Friday at 6pm (assuming no more Covid cases). This meant I got about 3 hours a day back from my travel to/from work.

 

 

The paint went on quite well, the transfers were a different story. I generally use HMRS Pressfix, with one lining sheet doing three or four carriages depending on livery.  I opened a new sheet but found that the printing alignment was so out that they weren’t yellow/black/yellow but black/yellow/black/ and then another separate yellow… To complete these carriages, I hacked the whole sheet and used part of another (new) sheet. The single yellow/black that goes above the windows started black/yellow at one end and then twisted to yellow/black at the other, so they were cut each side of the changeover and fixed on. One line is a waistline transfer carefully scalpeled down the middle! Each line has multiple joins, but some judicious use of Microset and Microsol has limited their visibility.

 

They need a bit of weathering, especially the guard’s windows in the brake ends.

 

 

With my carriage numbering, I have scoured photographs in my books to try and identify particular vehicles which traversed the Somerset & Dorset. Its not so difficult with the first carriage behind the engine given the line lent its self to trains stopped at signals where there were changes from double track to single or trains entering tunnels. One carriage has been numbered as that allocated to the Eastern region. I have a photo of this carriage at Birmingham New Street as the lead vehicle in the 10.05am Bournemouth West – Derby on 1 July 1961 (Steam Railway – The Glorious Years (1996), page 124-125). I’m always fascinated (sad maybe…) by the variations in these carriages in terms of some having the BR roundel and some not, some having two grey panels on the guards, some only one - and then on different doors -  and some none, some having door vents and some not and so on.

 

And this is them in formation with an open second in between; there will be a CK, TK and a BTK to the right.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

 

I think your final point about costs is very important. 

 

It's been mentioned before, I'm sure, but to equip Bytham's stud of locos (around 200!) would come at a very high price. What is the cost of a sound chip (assuming one wanted sound, which would rather be a waste of time/money on LB, anyway)? Or a plain chip? £20.00 for the latter? £4,000.00! That buys a lot of kits. Even if less that £20.00 for each chip, it's still going to be a lot. 

 

Not only that, any all-sheet metal locos have every cubic mm of spare space inside packed with lead; no room for chips.

 

And, though I've mentioned this to distraction, I'm still puzzled by folk who adopt DCC and yet can't install a decoder by themselves. It seems like a recipe for printing money to me................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony,

 

You’ll be amazed to hear that I completely agree! While I enjoy an A4 thrashing through Gresley Jn station and sounding its chime whistle (not no.13!), I think it has more value on shunting and stopping services than on expresses. I enjoy it most when operating our club BLT, Oakbourne. 
 

To retrofit your fleet would be a mammoth task, not just financially but also in hassle of hard wiring the chip and finding space for it (especially when such space may not exist). My standard chip is the LAIS DCC type you fitted to Jessie’s C2. They cost me £10 each and work very well. It’s an extra £8 for stayalive which is worthwhile on many locos. You can buy cheap sound chips but they’re not great. For a full spec one with decent speaker and stayalive it costs £120+. So to fit all your locos with sound would cost £240,000! Clearly a non starter.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

13 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Surely adopting DCC and paying someone else to install the decoder is no different to getting someone else to build a kit or paint a loco?

 

I've known some really great scenic modellers who would struggle to wire a DC shunting plank.

 

Personally I don't think I've ever seen the big advantages of DCC properly exploited on a layout. I don't recall seeing pilot or bankers being added, nor locos whistles being used correctly.

 

 

Steven B.

Steven,

 

I agree that DCC would be useful for bankers (although not essential as Sharp has shown), but I have no need for them on the southern end of the GNML. I do try to use whistles correctly:

- when entering a tunnel;

- just before departure from a station;

- before a level crossing (not that I have any!); and

- sometimes when passing a signal box.

The first and third on the list should presumably have associated ‘Whistle’ boards.

Is this correct and can you add any others?

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

[Tony Wright]

19 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Surely adopting DCC and paying someone else to install the decoder is no different to getting someone else to build a kit or paint a loco?

 

I've known some really great scenic modellers who would struggle to wire a DC shunting plank.

 

Personally I don't think I've ever seen the big advantages of DCC properly exploited on a layout. I don't recall seeing pilot or bankers being added, nor locos whistles being used correctly.

 

 

Steven B.

Thanks Stephen,

 

I think there is a big difference to be fair. If not, I was in the wrong business! 

 

It takes me about ten minutes to install a decoder into a kit-built loco (that's hard-wiring one; fitting one where there's a socket often takes longer because of having to find out how to get the RTR body off the frames!). Building a loco could take up to 40 hours. A difference, I think? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Steven B]

This thread has some useful information on blowing ones whistle:

 

 

 

[Steven B]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

It takes me about ten minutes to install a decoder into a kit-built loco (that's hard-wiring one; fitting one where there's a socket often takes longer because of having to find out how to get the RTR body off the frames!). Building a loco could take up to 40 hours. A difference, I think? 

 

Not really. Hard wiring a decoder involves soldering A to B four times (2x track feeds, 2x motor feeds). Building a kit just multiplies that by a factor of 100 or so!

 

If you struggle to solder in the first place (and have no interesting in learning) then paying someone to do the work could save money, either on burnt out decoders or melted lumps of white metal.

 

I have several models I'm thinking about sending off to be converted - I can easily do the work myself but with a young family I'd rather spend my limited modelling time kit building (or as I did yesterday, building snowmen!). Sometimes the value of ones time is worth more than the expense of paying someone else.

 

Steven B.

 

[Mark C]

2 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Yes, it seems they are.

Yes, I agree - the tell-tale protruding bottom door rail is quite prominent.  I have a Peco (Parkside Models) kit for one on my workbench and the historical notes state that they were built in 1962 - so that would fit in with the date on the photograph too.

 

Regards

Mark

 

[Tony Wright]

20 minutes ago, Iain.d said:

A bit more modelling…

 

I have recently completed my rebuild of two LMS BSK D2161s. I’m pleased how they have turned out. I managed to finish them a little while before I thought would, mostly due to Perth having a lockdown from 6pm Sunday just gone, to this Friday at 6pm (assuming no more Covid cases). This meant I got about 3 hours a day back from my travel to/from work.

 

 

The paint went on quite well, the transfers were a different story. I generally use HMRS Pressfix, with one lining sheet doing three or four carriages depending on livery.  I opened a new sheet but found that the printing alignment was so out that they weren’t yellow/black/yellow but black/yellow/black/ and then another separate yellow… To complete these carriages, I hacked the whole sheet and used part of another (new) sheet. The single yellow/black that goes above the windows started black/yellow at one end and then twisted to yellow/black at the other, so they were cut each side of the changeover and fixed on. One line is a waistline transfer carefully scalpeled down the middle! Each line has multiple joins, but some judicious use of Microset and Microsol has limited their visibility.

 

They need a bit of weathering, especially the guard’s windows in the brake ends.

 

 

With my carriage numbering, I have scoured photographs in my books to try and identify particular vehicles which traversed the Somerset & Dorset. Its not so difficult with the first carriage behind the engine given the line lent its self to trains stopped at signals where there were changes from double track to single or trains entering tunnels. One carriage has been numbered as that allocated to the Eastern region. I have a photo of this carriage at Birmingham New Street as the lead vehicle in the 10.05am Bournemouth West – Derby on 1 July 1961 (Steam Railway – The Glorious Years (1996), page 124-125). I’m always fascinated (sad maybe…) by the variations in these carriages in terms of some having the BR roundel and some not, some having two grey panels on the guards, some only one - and then on different doors -  and some none, some having door vents and some not and so on.

 

And this is them in formation with an open second in between; there will be a CK, TK and a BTK to the right.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Great stuff Ian,

 

Many thanks for showing us.........

 

Regarding HMRS 'Pressfix' transfers, I wonder what has happened to them of late? 

 

I don't use the lining any more (Replica Railways' water transfer BR carriage lining is far better), but I do (or did) use the 'Pressfix' BR numbers/letters. 

 

Last week, I had to break out two new sheets (14, I think is the number). They're useless. Not only are the the individual numbers/letters 'thicker' than in the past, but the backing paper refuses to be shifted until several minutes after water has been applied. Even then, it's still tenacious, and then the numbers/letters float off to the heart's content! Not too much of a problem if it's a single number/digit, but very frustrating if it's 'Restaurant Car' or 'British Railways'. I had to go back to my older sheets to try and mix and match.  

 

Has anyone else suffered in this respect? And, does anyone know which are the best alternatives, please? I shall certainly not be buying any more 'Pressfix' sheets. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

7 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

Not really. Hard wiring a decoder involves soldering A to B four times (2x track feeds, 2x motor feeds). Building a kit just multiplies that by a factor of 100 or so!

 

If you struggle to solder in the first place (and have no interesting in learning) then paying someone to do the work could save money, either on burnt out decoders or melted lumps of white metal.

 

I have several models I'm thinking about sending off to be converted - I can easily do the work myself but with a young family I'd rather spend my limited modelling time kit building (or as I did yesterday, building snowmen!). Sometimes the value of ones time is worth more than the expense of paying someone else.

 

Steven B.

 

I won't disagree with you Steven,

 

Though I would say it's a hell of a more-complex job building, say, a fully-blown Pacific than it is to just solder four wires. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Steven B]

Isn't the complexity in maintaining the build quality? You still only ever solder one piece of metal to another at anyone time. The only difference is the number needed to complete the job!

 

Steven B.

[jwealleans]

20 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

does anyone know which are the best alternatives, please?

 

I've had difficulty getting hold of Pressfix sheets all last year and had to use Methfix as a substitute.   While I don't like them, the results are good as long as you follow the instructions.

 

Modelmaster carriage lining gave me good results the last time I built blood and custard carriages (two GWR ones for Tom Foster).

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

 

Personally I don't think I've ever seen the big advantages of DCC properly exploited on a layout. I don't recall seeing pilot or bankers being added, nor locos whistles being used correctly.

 

 

Steven B.

 

Good afternoon Steven B,

 

Shipley Model Railway Society did all that back in the eighties and naughty's, with Pilot engines lined up and added to trains on Evercreech Junction and with banking on Tebay. No DCC was required. I am often 'reliably' informed by punters, that Leicester South GC is DCC. I can reliably inform them that it's not.

 

Pilot engines awaiting their turn. Photograph courtesy of Derek Shore.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Headstock

[john new]

17 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Back in the 80s I worked for a short time for Guagemaster/Engine Shed. We use to buy in second hand model railway items but not controllers. The boss when questioned why not, would simply answer would you buy a secondhand 1960s electric fire?

 

By all means continue to use your existing older controller if you feel it is safe, but please don't buy a secondhand one. 

As an addendum, I got out my inspection lamp a few days ago as I had to check something in the loft. Dating from the early 1970s (or possibly earlier if it had been Dad's before I left home),  it has the original rubber sleeved wiring, luckily I visually checked it as the individual feed wires had perished coverings where they entered the plug. Not used, and on the bench now for a strip down and possible re-cabling. The warning from Clive, and others, is not a trivial matter.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by john new

[Barry Ten]

I reluctantly had to switch to Methfix sheets recently as the Pressfix ones weren't available for the sets I wanted. Once I got going, though, I found them OK to use. I'd been reluctant to use them while living in Holland as I wasn't sure where to find Methylated Spirits.

 

As for letters breaking away in Pressfix, I've had this with "Great Western" and it's frustrating.

 

I wonder if a coat of one of the Micro-Sol products over the transfer sheet would help. One of them is a thicker fluid which is used to rejuvenate old decal sheets, I think it effectively forms a new adhesive layer over the old. I should try it and report...

[johndon]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

I don't recall seeing pilot or bankers being added, nor locos whistles being used correctly.

 

We add bankers on South Pelaw as per the prototype location:

 

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

I agree that DCC would be useful for bankers (although not essential as Sharp has shown), but I have no need for them on the southern end of the GNML. 

 

 

Thanks for the mention. I was going to post something anyway but here you go. If you haven't got 10 minutes to watch it all then whizz along to the last 30 seconds where you'll see the banking engine dropping off successfully - all on DC (although no Duettes are involved for this particular manoeuvre).

 

Not trying to say one is better than the other, merely to say that, with strategic wiring (which is actually quite logical) it is possible to do on DC many of the things that are claimed to be the benefits of DCC.

 

If nothing else, a bit of layout action during enforced exhibition embargo!

 

[Geep7]

8 hours ago, Steven B said:

Surely adopting DCC and paying someone else to install the decoder is no different to getting someone else to build a kit or paint a loco?

 

I've known some really great scenic modellers who would struggle to wire a DC shunting plank.

 

Personally I don't think I've ever seen the big advantages of DCC properly exploited on a layout. I don't recall seeing pilot or bankers being added, nor locos whistles being used correctly.

 

 

Steven B.

I originally started using DCC primarily for sound when I started modelling American Outline. On my American HO layouts, all the locomotives were sound fitted, and when operated I tried to be correct in the use of the whistles and horns (2 toots for moving forwards, 3 toots for moving in reverse, 1 short, 2 long, 1 short, 1 long when crossing a level crossing). The only part where I deviated from prototype was regarding the use of the bell. The prototype rules say that the bell should be rung always when in the station or when switching (shunting). So on an American switching layout it should be on permanently. It has already mentioned on this thread about the dreaded bell on American outline layouts when exhibiting nearby them, but as an operator of one, there is only so much bell ringing you can take. I think if I had the bell ringing all day at an exhibition i'd get lynched. At least with modelling British Southern Region (and now Spanish outline) there is no bell to worry about.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Geep7
Correcting the whistles order when using crossings...

[rowanj]

6 hours ago, coronach said:

or you could build a model of the Waverley Route where LNER Pacifics routinely hauled 4/5/6 coach trains - but were from St Margaret’s shed and so routinely dirty

I agree that a model of the Waverley route has merit. I thought, at one time, of modelling Hawick in the mid-50's which would give an excuse for having a rich mix of locos from ex-NBR veterans, through LNER classes, to BR Standards, Too late now, I suspect.

I'm not sure about the St Margarets reference as far as the A3's are concerned. While Haymarket was still a steam depot, I think this is where the express turns were normally serviced, and from where Edinburgh provided passenger motive power. 64A was the usual source for freight to the South and Carlisle. Certainly, most of my photos of 12C A3's are at 64B until that shed sent its' last locos to St Margarets. Eric/Merlin60027 will know better.

12C was an easy shed to "bunk" and as a young lad I often popped over from Newcastle to Carlisle to train spot. I was often on my own, unimaginable these days for a lad of 13 or 14. Canal seemed tiny after Upperby or Kingmoor, and I remember the shock and surprise to see big A3's there in what seemed a small rural environment,

Edited February 3, 2021 by rowanj

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

I've had difficulty getting hold of Pressfix sheets all last year and had to use Methfix as a substitute.   While I don't like them, the results are good as long as you follow the instructions.

 

Modelmaster carriage lining gave me good results the last time I built blood and custard carriages (two GWR ones for Tom Foster).

Thanks Jonathan,

 

I must have bought the two sheets of 'Pressfix' I mentioned a couple of years ago at a show, not needing them until a couple of weeks ago. The reason I opened both was that the first was no good, so I opened the second; which was just the same.

 

Sorting through my (admittedly non-sorted) sheets of 'Pressfix' transfers, I've found about 40 of the sheets I use the most. All are still usable (if mostly-used now), so it can't be a question of deterioration through age. 

 

It's both annoying and frustrating. I wonder if the reason they seem to be harder to get is that so many folk have complained that they've been removed from sale.

 

Though I've been a past-President of the HMRS, I have no connection with the Society now, so don't know who to ask. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Steven B said:

Isn't the complexity in maintaining the build quality? You still only ever solder one piece of metal to another at anyone time. The only difference is the number needed to complete the job!

 

Steven B.

Perhaps Steven,

 

However, I can assure you that soldering loads of wires together doesn't really prepare you for making a set of outside Walschaerts valve gear, no matter how long it takes. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Another request, please...................

 

This one has a lot more of Sherlock Holmes' abilities required...............................

 

 

Anyone have a clue where 48491 is in this picture?

 

All I know (from consulting my contemporary Locoshed books) is it's either shedded at Newton Heath or Patricroft. 

 

Somewhere in Lancashire?