Wright writes.....

[gr.king]

I'm glad to say I have a photograph of the real 4152 with a Stirling type D tender, but that doesn't make my K's boiler fat enough...

 

I'm sure there was a large selection of standard and non-standard sub-types of GN tender behind the many J3s. Latterly, I think that only those that came into LNER stock via the M&GN actually had a tender like the K's version of the Ivatt type B.

 

 

[LNER4479]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Shocked by my tender-attitude?

 

Can you find anyone observing any two of these arcane tenders which they'd swear were exactly the same? The front plate moves around like a modeller's nightmare, sometimes backwards, sometimes forwards, sometimes leaning, sometimes straight up, sometimes higher and sometimes lower. Two coal rails or three? Open or filled-in? Water filler? Round, like yours (and mine), or box-like (as original)? Water pick-up gear fitted, or not? 

 

Of course, I'd get a Gresley Pacific tender as (near) right as possible. There are plenty of works to help me. Where are The Book of The J3s, The Power of the J3s and any other similar volumes? 

 

Interestingly, none of the three tenders in these shots is the same as another. Which is right? Or wrong?

 

Go on then - I'm going to have a 'go', because I do declare that there is a touch of hypocrisy in your answer (an attribute you freely admit to on occasions)

 

Shocked by my tender-attitude? Yes!

 

Can you find anyone observing any two of these arcane tenders which they'd swear were exactly the same? The front plate moves around like a modeller's nightmare, sometimes backwards, sometimes forwards, sometimes leaning, sometimes straight up, sometimes higher and sometimes lower. Two coal rails or three? Open or filled-in? Water filler? Round, like yours (and mine), or box-like (as original)? Water pick-up gear fitted, or not?

Why should you expect them to all be the same? A4 tenders weren't all the same! And they changed over the years due to operational circumstances (eg the two - or was it three - cut down at the back to accommodate SR water cranes during the 1948 trials <-- did I get that right)

 

Of course, I'd get a Gresley Pacific tender as (near) right as possible. There are plenty of works to help me. Where are The Book of The J3s, The Power of the J3s and any other similar volumes?

Why do you need those books? You have the J3 Yeadons volumes you refer to so plenty of prototype pictures available for reference. And you yourself often advocate study of the prototype pictures rather than reliance on official documentation (hypocrisy?).

 

Interestingly, none of the three tenders in these shots is the same as another. Which is right? Or wrong?

The right one is the one that matches a photograph that fits your location / era.

 

Re the latter point, I'm just putting the finishing touches to my D2 (will post a pic on here when complete) and I have exactly the same conundrum. Variations include: chimney, dome, lubricators, ejector pipes, tender details (as well as the obvious fact that this one is a superheated type, with extended smokebox). For me that's part of the fun. I have a couple of books and have studied photos trying to find one that matches all the various features that would be right for Grantham 1938. I've finally found a photo (actually on an internet website, as it happened) so now I'm 'happy' to make it that one.

 

Does it matter? Of course not! Is there some personal satisfaction in getting it 'right'? Yes - of course there is! And that differs between all of us. Personally, I'm agonising over different tender types for 'Jubilees' in the 1950s at the moment ...

 

The real issue - I think - is that you can 'get away with' the J3 being an unremarkable, unloved type so any old one will do. Whereas if it's an A4 - well, it's got to be spot on! Therein lies the hypocrisy - well, 'inconsistency' at least.

 

Go on then - pick the bones out of that lot!

Edited March 11, 2021 by LNER4479

[Tony Wright]

14 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Go on then - I'm going to have a 'go', because I do declare that there is a touch of hypocrisy in your answer (an attribute you freely admit to on occasions)

 

Shocked by my tender-attitude? Yes!

 

Can you find anyone observing any two of these arcane tenders which they'd swear were exactly the same? The front plate moves around like a modeller's nightmare, sometimes backwards, sometimes forwards, sometimes leaning, sometimes straight up, sometimes higher and sometimes lower. Two coal rails or three? Open or filled-in? Water filler? Round, like yours (and mine), or box-like (as original)? Water pick-up gear fitted, or not?

Why should you expect them to all be the same? A4 tenders weren't all the same! And they changed over the years due to operational circumstances (eg the two - or was it three - cut down at the back to accommodate SR water cranes during the 1948 trials <-- did I get that right)

 

Of course, I'd get a Gresley Pacific tender as (near) right as possible. There are plenty of works to help me. Where are The Book of The J3s, The Power of the J3s and any other similar volumes?

Why do you need those books? You have the J3 Yeadons volumes you refer to so plenty of prototype pictures available for reference. And you yourself often advocate study of the prototype pictures rather than reliance on official documentation (hypocrisy?).

 

Interestingly, none of the three tenders in these shots is the same as another. Which is right? Or wrong?

The right one is the one that matches a photograph that fits your location / era.

 

Re the latter point, I'm just putting the finishing touches to my D2 (will post a pic on here when complete) and I have exactly the same conundrum. Variations include: chimney, dome, lubricators, ejector pipes, tender details (as well as the obvious fact that this on is a superheated type, with extended smokebox). For me that's part of the fun. I have a couple of books and have studied photos trying to find one that matches all the various features that would be right for Grantham 1938. I've finally found a photo (actually on an internet website, as it happened) so now I'm 'happy' to make it that one.

 

Does it matter? Of course not! Is there some personal satisfaction in getting it 'right'? Yes - of course there is! And that differs between all of us. Personally, I'm agonising over different tender types for 'Jubilees' in the 1950s at the moment ...

 

The real issue - I think - is that you can 'get away with' the J3 being an unremarkable, unloved type so any old one will do. Whereas if it's an A4 - well, it's got to be spot on! Therein lies the hypocrisy - well, 'inconsistency' at least.

 

Go on then - pick the bones out of that lot!

A most-reasoned response Graham,

 

Thank you.

 

Of course I have the books. However, one photograph doesn't reveal every nuance of every detail difference. When I asked about things like the 'Book of', taking, say, the A4s, there are several photos of each loco, including shots of the various tenders. Six to eight pictures of a single J3? Hardly likely! There were three cut-down A4 tenders, by the way. Each one the subject of umpteen photographs. 

 

I certainly don't expect every tender to be the same. Did I imply that? 

 

One final point; have you fitted the correct 12-spoked bogie wheels to your B17 yet? There are hundreds of photographs showing B17 bogies. Hypocrisy? That's where they were all the same.....................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[LNER4479]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

One final point; have you fitted the correct 12-spoked bogie wheels to your B17 yet?

On the round tuit pile, Tony!

 

Seriously, I think there is a 'pecking order' for getting the details right. And that generally goes

1. locos

2. coaches

3. wagons

 

For (steam) locos, I think you can then think of that as:

1. BR era

2. Big Four

3. Pre-grouping

 

In other words, the further back in time you go, the harder it is to be certain of the details. And - yes - I absolutely 'get' the glamour locos attracting most attention - and critical comment. The were inevitably the most photographed.

 

Interestingly, re loco details, study of photos can be fascinating. Yesterday I was involved with an e-mail discussion about the loco featured in this photo:

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LMSR-and-BRM/LMSR-tank-locomotives/i-cHxSQF5/A

Shown at its then home shed of Darlington, can anybody spot the deliberate mistake?

[New Haven Neil]

5A shed code?

[LNER4479]

8 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

5A shed code?

Yep! And according to the ever excellent BR Database website ...

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=426452173&loco=2639

... it never went anywhere near Crewe in its BR service history! So how did it acquire such a plate?

[great central]

2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Yep! And according to the ever excellent BR Database website ...

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=426452173&loco=2639

... it never went anywhere near Crewe in its BR service history! So how did it acquire such a plate?

 

If I remember correctly, CBA to go find a book to confirm, Darlington was 51A?

It looks to me like there's a mark beside the 5, maybe a shortage of 51A plates so someone made something up?

There's a photo on the front cover of a book I have of a 9F on a passenger train at Nottingham Victoria. Again without digging it out the caption mentioned the apparently wrong shed code on the smokeboox.

It's plain to see that the actual numbers and letter on the plate are correct for the allocation of the loco at the time although one of the numbers isn't picked out with paint. I think Crewe is also mentioned in regard to this one as a coincidence.

I've often noticed that things that are plain to see are wrongly captioned.

[Jesse Sim]

12 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I am perplexed by the number of "safety professionals" that I know who ride motorcycles.

Nothing like putting oil, fuel and a red hot motor between your legs and going for a ride in a t shirt. Got two more weeks till I get to ride my new one...

[LNER4479]

8 minutes ago, great central said:

 

If I remember correctly, CBA to go find a book to confirm, Darlington was 51A?

It looks to me like there's a mark beside the 5, maybe a shortage of 51A plates so someone made something up?

 

That was the conclusion we came to - Darlington is indeed 51A. Although how the shed staff at Darlington managed to get their hands on a 5A Crewe plate is an equal mystery! At least it was better than removing it and crudely painting the number on, as so often happened at the very end.

 

[Woodcock29]

Here's my J3 built a couple of years ago and seen before on here. Its a Ks loco body with new boiler fittings, buffers and a Mainly Trains J52 chassis plus a LRM Stirling D Type tender with which most J3s were fitted in the 1930s. Its fitted with a Portescap 1219 motor/gearbox.Despite the slightly undersize boiler I think it looks the part, even if the splashers are a bit oversize. I did originally intend to fit one of Graeme King's J6 boilers but the difference in diameter was only marginal so I opted for the heavier whitemetal boiler with Graeme's smoke box front (the K's smokebox door was much too small in diameter and looked awful).

 

The NEM pocket behind the screw coupling is so I can fit it with a Kadee at the front for working on our new exhibition layout, Spirsby, here in Adelaide.

 

Andrew

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Woodcock29

[D.Platt]

15 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Apart from some detailing bits to do, the LRM J3 is about finished.

 

 

I sort of gave up caring whether the tender is dead right in detail or not. Looking at pictures, no two seemed to be the same - three or two coal rails, different positions of the front bulkhead, whether some had a rear coal division plate or not, the type of filler, whether water pick-up apparatus was in place (even when it was removed, the breather cones remained) and whether tool boxes were present or not. If it's wrong, it's wrong!

 

I'm happy with how it looks and how it runs (every spare cubic quarter inch is full of lead).

 

A lovely little kit; everything fitted and it was great fun to build. Full marks to LRM.

Afternoon Tony

The J3 has turned into a lovely looking loco , it had me looking at their history as to when they were working, so going on the BR database I see the last one went in 1954 , I would have thought a little early for your running?  so rule one applies !

I can understand your problem with the tender, I have been going cross eyed looking at WD photos whilst making my Doncaster version,  but on a flicker site that has hundreds of images to study, without good photos then you are right , you do have to second guess.

Dennis

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Afternoon Tony

The J3 has turned into a lovely looking loco , it had me looking at their history as to when they were working, so going on the BR database I see the last one went in 1954 , I would have thought a little early for your running?  so rule one applies !

I can understand your problem with the tender, I have been going cross eyed looking at WD photos whilst making my Doncaster version,  but on a flicker site that has hundreds of images to study, without good photos then you are right , you do have to second guess.

Dennis

Good afternoon Dennis,

 

Many thanks.

 

The J3 is certainly too early for the main line depiction on LB. However (Rule 1!), the MR/M&GNR bit is much more fluid it its timescale. In fact it's the last decade of the line's existence, from Nationalisation through to closure in early '59. Thus, I have the likes of a D3, D9, and D16/3s and B12/3s representing the earlier period, finishing off with the Ivatt 'Flying Pigs' and anything else in between. 

 

The main difference between the two systems is this; I saw the stuff I've modelled on the main line (further north) but never saw any part of the M&GNR system in steam days. Though it's likely I saw a D9 (at Chester) and a J3 (at Retford) I'd only have been of infant/early junior school age, and, thus, have no tangible memory. 

 

It's such a fascinating line. I have many books on it, and the range of motive power seen on it (of pre-Grouping, LNER, LMS and BR origin) was enormous; all of it crying out to be modelled. 

 

Here's a modest selection...................... Part 1.

 

In no particular chronological order............................ Unless stated, I've built/modified/painted/weathered all the locos.

 

 

A Millholme 2P (modified, and towing a South Eastern Finecast tender, to represent a Midland-built example) heads a Notts-Lynn three-set. 

 

 

The B12/3 on the main line (Coopercraft!) represents an earlier period than 1958 (Rule 1!), as a South Eastern Finecast 4F heads westwards towards Bourne. 

 

 

More 4Fs (44418 is returning). A modified Bachmann 4F heads a Notts-Lynn three-set off the single track section as 44418 waits for the road on a Lynn-Notts three-set. 

 

 

During the line's last months, B1s could be seen on it, including Boston's 61159 (Bachmann body/Comet frames). 

 

Representative of the earlier period, A London Road D3 (painted/weathered by Geoff Haynes) heads towards Kings Lynn.

 

 

A D16/3 (Mallard/Little Engines) heads eastwards on a Lynn-Notts service. 

 

 

The same loco, but now much more realistic after being expertly weathered by Geoff Haynes. 

 

 

Anecdotal evidence suggests 8Fs got as far as Bourne, but I'm not sure. Modified/weathered Hornby.

 

 

And, an earlier look at a D16/3 (modified/renumbered Hornby, weathered by Geoff Haynes). 

 

 

Nottingham-based Ivatt 'Mickey Mouse' heads towards Castle Bytham (modified Hornby on Comet frames, completed by me and painted by Geoff Haynes).

 

 

A modified/detailed Bachmann 'Flying Pig' takes 'The Leicester' westwards. 

 

 

And another Ivatt 4MT heads the other way (scratch-built, completed by me). 

 

This picture was taken before Dave Wager made the brilliant girder bridge. The one shown here was my first 'fudged' attempt. 

 

More, later.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Tony Wright]

The next MR/M&GNR selection......................

 

 

J11s were common on the line in the '50s (Little Engines kit, all John Houlden's work). 

 

 

 

The 'fireboxgate' J17 (Crownline kit, now with Tom Foster for weathering). 

 

 

A 'visiting' loco (though most appropriate). It's the work of Eric Fry.

 

 

It was borrowed for the Bytham LNER '38 Weekend (held in 2018). A J3 (I think) waits for its passing. 

 

 

I built a McGowan D9 for the same weekend, which Geoff Haynes painted. Again, the old (and rather wrong) girder bridge is still in place. 

 

 

An MPD 3F (completed by me) heads the daily Down freight). 

 

 

 

A McGowan B12/3 passes Bytham's MR 'box on 'The Leicester' in the early-'50s. 

 

 

Later in the decade, some B12/3s were in lined black. Like this one, built from a PDK kit and painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

K2s were also quite common on the line (an old Nu-Cast kit). 

 

 

As were J6s (an even older WSM kit).

 

And so, to the latest loco for the 'upper' trainset..................

 

 

Heading the daily Up goods. 

 

 

And a passenger train still in teak. 

 

Apologies for some of these pictures having been seen before (in a different context), but the little bit of Little Bytham seems popular with some observers.  

Edited March 11, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Tony Wright]

On 10/03/2021 at 17:18, landscapes said:

Hi Tom

 

Fabulous video, very realistic.

 

Regards

 

David

Thanks David,

 

You can tell which locos have Portescaps!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[D.Platt]

Thanks Tony , I knew Rule 1 would be the case , but what a lovely selection of locos you can call on to use on the MR/M&GNR section.

I have gone as far as I can go with my WD , it started with a bargain buy off eBay (£70) ,I used your favourite paint stripper, first time I’ve used it , it certainly broke the body right down ! like I’ve mentioned I studied hundreds of photos online, you never notice all the variations till you really start looking.

The chassis was given a new set of Markits wheels and a high level gearbox with a 1628  flat can motor ,

I replaced the steps and added rear steps to the tender and removed the pick ups which had locked its wheels ! So a little more cleaning up after looking at these pictures ! then it’s the fun of painting and weathering it into 90056 

[landscapes]

26 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks David,

 

You can tell which locos have Portescaps!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony

 

I think its the locomotive sounds that gives your video the realism, close my eyes and I'm line-side back in the late 1950's.

 

A really great piece of photography work.

 

Regards

 

David

[zr2498]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The next MR/M&GNR selection......................

 

And so, to the latest loco for the 'upper' trainset..................

 

 

 

Thanks Tony for these pictures. Always good to see this line in operation. Great picture of the bridge and of course the 'latest loco'.

Cheers, Dave

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by zr2498

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Thanks Tony , I knew Rule 1 would be the case , but what a lovely selection of locos you can call on to use on the MR/M&GNR section.

I have gone as far as I can go with my WD , it started with a bargain buy off eBay (£70) ,I used your favourite paint stripper, first time I’ve used it , it certainly broke the body right down ! like I’ve mentioned I studied hundreds of photos online, you never notice all the variations till you really start looking.

The chassis was given a new set of Markits wheels and a high level gearbox with a 1628  flat can motor ,

I replaced the steps and added rear steps to the tender and removed the pick ups which had locked its wheels ! So a little more cleaning up after looking at these pictures ! then it’s the fun of painting and weathering it into 90056 

Good evening Dennis,

 

Good to see the modified (Doncaster) firebox and the fact you've taken off the cast conduit for the ejector pipe, and replaced it with something much more realistic (and wiggly).

 

I didn't replace the ejector pipe on the one I built for myself..................

 

 

It would have been better if I'd done so.

 

Still, Tony Geary didn't alter the ones on his DJH 'Austerities'

 

 

 

Of which I'm now the happy owner. 

 

The picture of 90040 was taken earlier on in Bytham's construction. 

 

I've decided not to bother with fake smoke any more.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Thanks Tony for these pictures. Always good to see this line in operation. Great picture of the bridge and of course the 'latest loco'.

Cheers, Dave

 

Thanks Dave,

 

And, thanks once again for the great bridge.

 

I think I've included pictures of every class of loco to be seen on the M&GNR during the line's last decade (perhaps a D2 is needed as well? Are there any I've missed?), but not every individual example I've got. 

 

Since only ten locos are needed at any one time to run the upper sequence, having at least three/four spares for each working might seem excessive, but I like building locos.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jesse Sim]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The next MR/M&GNR selection......................

 

 

J11s were common on the line in the '50s (Little Engines kit, all John Houlden's work). 

 

 

 

The 'fireboxgate' J17 (Crownline kit, now with Tom Foster for weathering). 

 

 

A 'visiting' loco (though most appropriate). It's the work of Eric Fry.

 

 

It was borrowed for the Bytham LNER '38 Weekend (held in 2018). A J3 (I think) waits for its passing. 

 

 

I built a McGowan D9 for the same weekend, which Geoff Haynes painted. Again, the old (and rather wrong) girder bridge is still in place. 

 

 

An MPD 3F (completed by me) heads the daily Down freight). 

 

 

 

A McGowan B12/3 passes Bytham's MR 'box on 'The Leicester' in the early-'50s. 

 

 

Later in the decade, some B12/3s were in lined black. Like this one, built from a PDK kit and painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

K2s were also quite common on the line (an old Nu-Cast kit). 

 

 

As were J6s (an even older WSM kit).

 

And so, to the latest loco for the 'upper' trainset..................

 

 

Heading the daily Up goods. 

 

 

And a passenger train still in teak. 

 

Apologies for some of these pictures having been seen before (in a different context), but the little bit of Little Bytham seems popular with some observers.  

I see my wagon isn’t good enough, it’s been left in the siding  

[AndyID]

13 hours ago, MJI said:

A stunt man who worked on a Bond film was a skilled bike rider. Did stunts on snow. He was challenged by skiing professionals to a best time on a fast downhill. He won. All I can remember is a 500cc trail bike.

 

Details are pre internet so cannot find the names.

 

Two wheels on snow can be a bit of a problem. Google "Mountain Of Hell Crash" for the video.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Nothing like putting oil, fuel and a red hot motor between your legs and going for a ride in a t shirt. Got two more weeks till I get to ride my new one...

So what will you be riding/driving to my place a week tomorrow then?

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I've decided not to bother with fake smoke any more.

Good!

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

I see my wagon isn’t good enough, it’s been left in the siding  

It was put there so that everyone can see it!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

13 hours ago, landscapes said:

Hi Tony

 

I think its the locomotive sounds that gives your video the realism, close my eyes and I'm line-side back in the late 1950's.

 

A really great piece of photography work.

 

Regards

 

David

Thanks again David,

 

I really enjoy the natural 'mechanical' sound generated by the trains running on Little Bytham, but it's just that, despite their smoothness, those (few) locos fitted with Portescaps tend to whine. The camera seems to pick this up more than the 'naked' ear. 

 

Speaking of a 'whine', watch out over the weekend for the BRM virtual exhibition, where I've taken moving footage on LB of the latest RTR offering, GT3. It really does whine; most-realistically!

 

Regards,

 

Tony.