Wright writes.....

[Barry Ten]

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

But really at the head of the list should be Alfred de Glehn's compound 4-6-0s, which along with his 4-4-2s, were hugely influential. He was a British locomotive engineer, born and bred in Sydenham and with a sister who married a Bishop and was a champion of women's rights and education.

 

 

 

Fascinating; I'd always taken it for granted that he was French by birth.

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

The nearest I have to that colour scheme is a DMU.

Bernard

 

 

 

Leipzig, by any chance? 

[Barry Ten]

Just now, Barry Ten said:

 

Leipzig, by any chance? 

 

Ah, I see I missed the subsequent post!

 

Easily the most beautiful station I've been in, I think.

[Bernard Lamb]

1 minute ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Ah, I see I missed the subsequent post!

 

Easily the most beautiful station I've been in, I think.

No longer the largest terminal station after the closure of some platforms and the need for car parking after the rebuild. Always was nice but the addition of the two tier shopping center has turned it into a work of art as well as a vibrant meeting place. Of course Napoleon did his bit in clearing the space at the front to allow the tram and bus interchange. It all works so well, as well as being a thing of beauty. For those who do not know it the scale is huge and very impressive. There was a brilliant bookshop that opened on the concourse after unification with a superb selection of railway books and videos. I would eagerly wait the publication of the next issue of  "The DR 25 years ago" back in the 1990s. Alas this shop it went down hill as far as specialist subjects were concerned over the years.

I am reminded of a quote on railway privatization in the UK. View it as a property company rather than a transport company. An opportunity missed?  Although KX/St Pancras seems to be a step forward.

Bernard

 

 

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

 

I can think of one, but being of evil persuasion can anyone get it?  Bill

So no-one thought of the GS&WR 400 class!  Bill 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Ah - Leipzig Gleiss 24, die Fliegender Hamburger. A most interesting exhibit. The very train type that Gresley and team rode on in 1934 ... and then decided they could do so much better with steam! The rest, as they say ...

In the back shed at Nuremberg Museum, December 2016:

 

next to another very fine beast:

 

Very hard to get a good photo in there unfortunately.

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That too. The LNER's demo train, made up of standard stock, was lightweight compared to the run of East Coast and West Riding expresses: Nock says, corridor first, kitchen first diner, corridor brake composite. (Well, at least that shows you don't need a shed the size of Tony's to model a genuine East Coast express!) He also states that because of various speed restrictions, the manufacturers of German train could not propose as fast a schedule between London and Newcastle as that being achieved between Berlin and Hamburg. [O.S. Nock, Speed Records on Britain's Railways (David & Charles, 1971).]

Even the lightweight 'demo' train gave greater capacity and far superior catering to the German diesel.

 

It's interesting that Gresley (and his team) used an A1 to start with (FLYING SCOTSMAN) to test the feasibility of the fast service, on the way 4472 becoming the first British loco to exceed 100 mph, near (guess where?) Little Bytham. With a heavier train, but this time with an A3, the feasibility was proven (with PAPYRUS becoming the fastest non-streamlined steam loco, reaching 108 mph near - again! - Little Bytham). 

 

The result was the precussor of all the high speed trains ever to run in this country.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[LNER4479]

24 minutes ago, bbishop said:

So no-one thought of the GS&WR 400 class!  Bill 

Nice going - I did think of checking out the Emerald Isle (the later 3-cyl 800 locos being the better-known type) but didn't want to spend all morning searching t'internet.

 

That's an interesting type. Apparently, the designer - Watson - came from the GWR and had access to the 'Star' drawings. But it appears he got  it 'wrong' with these 400 locos and they ended up being rebuilt into 2-cyl versions.

 

Definitely worthy of adding to the list as a British type - thanks!

[drmditch]

I did ask this question a few pages ago, but no-one appears to have replied to it.

Were there any  British steam locomotives with 3 or more cylinders and 'undivided drive', other than those of Raven/Darlington and Gresley/Doncaster?

[LNER4479]

57 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

In the back shed at Nuremberg Museum, December 2016:

 

next to another very fine beast:

 

Yep - been there as well (2017).

 

Was it positioned slightly better for my photo?

 

I took note of the citation alongside the loco. My German's not brilliant but even I can see the reference to Mallard in there.

 

Chucking the text of that last paragraph into Google translate, it comes back with:

 

'During high-speed tests on this route (Berlin-Hamburg), 05 002 set a new world record for steam locomotives on May 11, 1936 rather casually* with 200.4 km / h. The English locomotive 'Mallard' barely* exceeded this record two years later with 202.8 km / h. It still holds this speed record for steam locomotives to this day.'

 

I would invite more competent German speakers than me to either confirm or suggest alternative words to those asterix'd - as written, it continues the impression of the Germans being rather miffed! (developing world events at the time notwithstanding)

 

[Tony Wright]

23 minutes ago, drmditch said:

I did ask this question a few pages ago, but no-one appears to have replied to it.

Were there any  British steam locomotives with 3 or more cylinders and 'undivided drive', other than those of Raven/Darlington and Gresley/Doncaster?

I don't know.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

No longer the largest terminal station after the closure of some platforms and the need for car parking after the rebuild. Always was nice but the addition of the two tier shopping center has turned it into a work of art as well as a vibrant meeting place. Of course Napoleon did his bit in clearing the space at the front to allow the tram and bus interchange. It all works so well, as well as being a thing of beauty. For those who do not know it the scale is huge and very impressive. There was a brilliant bookshop that opened on the concourse after unification with a superb selection of railway books and videos. I would eagerly wait the publication of the next issue of  "The DR 25 years ago" back in the 1990s. Alas this shop it went down hill as far as specialist subjects were concerned over the years.

I am reminded of a quote on railway privatization in the UK. View it as a property company rather than a transport company. An opportunity missed?  Although KX/St Pancras seems to be a step forward.

Bernard

 

 

 

Perhaps the shop has gone back to being good again? I was there in 2018 and there was a most impressive selection of railway titles, videos, magazines etc in one area of a general bookstore/cafe.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the beautiful integration of shops and cafes into the design. I was left wondering why we can't do public spaces to the same standard in the UK, where things so often end up cluttered, congested and nasty-looking. On the same visit to Leipzig I also got a chance to visit the redesigned Hauptbahnhof in Berlin, a remarkable multi-level station and again a beautiful public space where one actually welcomed the chance to spend time rather than wanting to be out of there as quickly as possible.

 

Al

[Bernard Lamb]

.....and in model form.

Bernard

 

 

 

 

 

[LNER4479]

53 minutes ago, drmditch said:

I did ask this question a few pages ago, but no-one appears to have replied to it.

Were there any  British steam locomotives with 3 or more cylinders and 'undivided drive', other than those of Raven/Darlington and Gresley/Doncaster?

Unless I've completely misinterpreted a drawing I've just checked on line, I believe Mr Bulleid's pacifics also drove onto the same axle with their inside cylinder as the outside cylinders. Hardly surprising, given Bulleid's background

 

The problem with that arrangement (ie all driving on the middle coupled axle) is that you have to seriously rake upwards the orientation of the middle cylinder so as the conn. rod clears the leading axle at its lowest point of oscillation. It also puts serious additional stress on the middle crank axle - Gresley machines had their middle crank axles changed out at 250k miles. The P2s, with their extra power, broke crank axles on at least 5 separate occasions, well before the 250k miles limit was reached.

 

The up side however is that you end up with a better balanced loco. As David Elliott once remarked re the Tornado divided drive arrangement: 'you've got a one cylinder machine fighting against a two cylinder machine'. In others, undesirable internal forces that aren't there with all-on-the-same-axle.

 

A1SLT has been wrestling with the above 'undivided drive' issues referred to above for the new P2, including redesigning the crank axle so as to safely achieve 250k miles (which in the preservation world will take 20-25 years to reach) and also the modification to include the cannonbox arrangement for the roller bearings on the leading coupled axle, which takes it perilously close to that conn. rod ...

Edited April 10, 2021 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

17 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Perhaps the shop has gone back to being good again? I was there in 2018 and there was a most impressive selection of railway titles, videos, magazines etc in one area of a general bookstore/cafe.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the beautiful integration of shops and cafes into the design. I was left wondering why we can't do public spaces to the same standard in the UK, where things so often end up cluttered, congested and nasty-looking. On the same visit to Leipzig I also got a chance to visit the redesigned Hauptbahnhof in Berlin, a remarkable multi-level station and again a beautiful public space where one actually welcomed the chance to spend time rather than wanting to be out of there as quickly as possible.

 

Al

Meant to include a pic of the Leipzig station concourse earlier. Here it is, in case others are wondering what all the fuss is about:

 

 

And all rebuilt since ... you know when.

[FarrMan]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Nice going - I did think of checking out the Emerald Isle (the later 3-cyl 800 locos being the better-known type) but didn't want to spend all morning searching t'internet.

 

That's an interesting type. Apparently, the designer - Watson - came from the GWR and had access to the 'Star' drawings. But it appears he got  it 'wrong' with these 400 locos and they ended up being rebuilt into 2-cyl versions.

 

Definitely worthy of adding to the list as a British type - thanks!

Strictly speaking, though the whole of Ireland was in the UK, it was not part of Britain. Hence you still get 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. However, I agree to adding it to the list as a UK engine. Just don't want to upset the Irish.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, FarrMan said:

Strictly speaking, though the whole of Ireland was in the UK, it was not part of Britain. Hence you still get 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. However, I agree to adding it to the list as a UK engine. Just don't want to upset the Irish.

 

But Irish broad gauge steam locomotives have to be taken as part and parcel of the history of the British steam locomotive - with the influence being both ways. There's Aspinall and Ivatt taking their turns at Inchicore after their training at Crewe, J.G. Robinson, and of course County Dublin-born R.E.L. Maunsell, graduate of TCD and Inchicore, as well as Horwich. Also Alexander McDonnell, another TCD graduate, whose imprint survived virtually to the end of steam in Ireland in the form of his Class 101 (GSR J15) 0-6-0 and was the mentor of Aspinall, Ivatt, and Maunsell, though his move from Inchicore to Gateshead was not a success.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

Fascinating; I'd always taken it for granted that he was French by birth.

 

His father was a Prussian from what is now Estonia, Robert von Glehn, and his mother was Scottish. Alfred changed the 'von' to 'de' when he settled in France; the rest of the family followed suit during the Great War. A family with some interesting connections.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Compound2632
Typo corrected

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Yep - been there as well (2017).

 

Was it positioned slightly better for my photo?

 

I took note of the citation alongside the loco. My German's not brilliant but even I can see the reference to Mallard in there.

 

Chucking the text of that last paragraph into Google translate, it comes back with:

 

'During high-speed tests on this route (Berlin-Hamburg), 05 002 set a new world record for steam locomotives on May 11, 1936 rather casually* with 200.4 km / h. The English locomotive 'Mallard' barely* exceeded this record two years later with 202.8 km / h. It still holds this speed record for steam locomotives to this day.'

 

I would invite more competent German speakers than me to either confirm or suggest alternative words to those asterix'd - as written, it continues the impression of the Germans being rather miffed! (developing world events at the time notwithstanding)

 

 

Beilaufig - casual suggests this was not a planned speed trial and occurred by happenstance

 

Although barely works I think we would say just.  Implying by a small margin - which it was.

[Michael Edge]

3 hours ago, drmditch said:

I did ask this question a few pages ago, but no-one appears to have replied to it.

Were there any  British steam locomotives with 3 or more cylinders and 'undivided drive', other than those of Raven/Darlington and Gresley/Doncaster?

The Claughton's four cylinders all drove the leading axle.

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Unless I've completely misinterpreted a drawing I've just checked on line, I believe Mr Bulleid's pacifics also drove onto the same axle with their inside cylinder as the outside cylinders. Hardly surprising, given Bulleid's background

 

The problem with that arrangement (ie all driving on the middle coupled axle) is that you have to seriously rake upwards the orientation of the middle cylinder so as the conn. rod clears the leading axle at its lowest point of oscillation. It also puts serious additional stress on the middle crank axle - Gresley machines had their middle crank axles changed out at 250k miles. The P2s, with their extra power, broke crank axles on at least 5 separate occasions, well before the 250k miles limit was reached.

 

The up side however is that you end up with a better balanced loco. As David Elliott once remarked re the Tornado divided drive arrangement: 'you've got a one cylinder machine fighting against a two cylinder machine'. In others, undesirable internal forces that aren't there with all-on-the-same-axle.

 

A1SLT has been wrestling with the above 'undivided drive' issues referred to above for the new P2, including redesigning the crank axle so as to safely achieve 250k miles (which in the preservation world will take 20-25 years to reach) and also the modification to include the cannonbox arrangement for the roller bearings on the leading coupled axle, which takes it perilously close to that conn. rod ...

I believe that the issues with the P2 crank axle were partly due to the qualities of the materials being used/available at the time, and that one of the reasons for the failures was that, unlike the Pacifics, which could (and did) slip, easing the forces being put on the crank axle, the Mikados were more sure-footed & thus there was more shear force being put on the axles. (Of course the P2s could slip, but it took more effort to make that happen). Modern materials, and, I think, a slightly bigger diameter, are intended to reduce potential risk of this happening to 2007.

 

Mark

[Compound2632]

There was a fascinating website by a train timing enthusiast who analysed various records in great detail - unfortunately I can't find the link now. What I recall is that there were several test runs with 05 002, during one of which 200 km/h was maintained over several kilometres on what I think was a level stretch of line, or at least nowhere so steeply-graded as Stoke Bank. I can't recall if the load was mentioned. Anyway, that seems to me a rather worthier record than Mallard's self-destructive gravity-assisted spot maximum (taken from an oddly-shaped blip on the dynamometer car trace, I think Nock says). Which is not to knock the A4s in general - they were clearly locomotives with an 'unforced' natural maximum speed of 110+ mph (vide Silver Link) and were a significant class working top expresses for over quarter of a century, unlike Wagner's pair of experimental baltics.

[APOLLO]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

There was a fascinating website by a train timing enthusiast who analysed various records in great detail - unfortunately I can't find the link now. What I recall is that there were several test runs with 05 002, during one of which 200 km/h was maintained over several kilometres on what I think was a level stretch of line, or at least nowhere so steeply-graded as Stoke Bank. I can't recall if the load was mentioned. Anyway, that seems to me a rather worthier record than Mallard's self-destructive gravity-assisted spot maximum (taken from an oddly-shaped blip on the dynamometer car trace, I think Nock says). Which is not to knock the A4s in general - they were clearly locomotives with an 'unforced' natural maximum speed of 110+ mph (vide Silver Link) and were a significant class working top expresses for over quarter of a century, unlike Wagner's pair of experimental baltics.

 

Far too late to try and take the speed record credit from Mallard. She has it fair and square.

 

Brit15

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Far too late to try and take the speed record credit from Mallard. She has it fair and square.

 

I'm always up for a spot of revisionism and reassessment of popular history / folklore / mythology in the light of the evidence! 

 

What evidence have you for assigning female gender to Mallard? 

[LNER4479]

Actually, of the records and evidence I've seen questioned over the years, 4472's 1934 100mph maxima (referred to before) is the more dodgier. There is - apparently - a more blatant 'blip' on that trace from 98 to 100 mph that challenges the laws of physics. Mallard's was definitely 125mph and Gresley was happy with that at the time as it (just) got the world record. It was only later, after careful study, that it was ajudged that 126mph could possibly have been attained for about three rail lengths. 

 

Just to show no bias, I'm pretty certain that 6220 didn't achieve 114mph two miles outside Crewe in 1937 either. 112.5 or 113mph is more likely.